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closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,165
got not problem w/ devs calling dickish ppl dicks
one of the better PR things of the past decade to me personally was respawn talking about how they werent going to engage w/ the community on demand, but instead take their time w/ their internal workings and work on their own terms, coupled with the surprise release of the game with "we thought if we marketed the game, it'd just be all "oh look another battle royale with lootboxes lets shit on it" so we just released it instead and hired streamers to do the marketing"
 

Deleted member 56069

User requested account deletion
Banned
Apr 18, 2019
271
Sure, it looks unprofessional, but a lot of gamers are entitled ass-hats - so I agree with Respawn here. Calling them out was something none of them expected so they're throwing a temper tantrum.
 

Rotimi

Banned
Dec 25, 2017
1,756
Jos , Nigeria
I get complaining about their mtx pricing being expensive. And you are allowed to even if you are not going to pay for the game. Harassment is never good and we should not condone it, Regardless of what the devs did.

I can't blame the dev actually, the sense of entitlement from gamers is ridiculous. And no way should you talk to devs like that
 

MegaSackman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,696
Argentina
Skins at $18 are way expensive but I'm on dev side on this one.

I stopped playing because once I got bored of the game (it became monotonous to my playstyle) the content wasn't there or was too expensive to me to enjoy it.

You can voice your opinion once and play other things man, nobody forces you to be binded to this game or any other but being disrespectful is not acceptable.
 

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
I think it all started when some gamers started "calculating" it all out and determining the "full price" when in reality it's most likely much different than that. Yes, if you buy every skin ever it costs: $472747 but the majority of players buy 1-3 skins at most: for their fav char and fav gun, regardless of price. So being a free game you have to have the price match that.

I've heard people say, "$20 for a skin! That's like an entire witcher expansion!!" But you for sure know if Cdpr was to release their Witcher expansion for free and then a $20 Gerald with a hat skin, players would be praising them for being so generous.
You're basically comparing apples to oranges, a single player expansion being free is not really the same as a multiplayer game being free, the sort of addiction that mp games cause and the pressure of some people to spend money is something that these companies prey on.
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
It's interesting that you take it as an insult when it reads like a playful jab.
Playful jab? Why? Because he follows it with we love you? So if he said the players were asshole but we love you, that's playful too, right? So long as you follow it with we love you it's all in jest.
 

ChrisD

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,606
Freeloaders is the only thing "wrong" here. The rest is pretty much on the mark. Still unprofessional but they're right.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
These are tried and true methods of psychological manipulation. I won't won't find the names of psychologists and experts in the field of consumer exploitation that these companies commission. Much of this research has been done long ago and over many years. We just have the roadmaps now and these toxic companies implement these tried and true methods. The skeleton of these systems come from a psychological base of addiction study. Not any particular psychologist that has been hired.
Oh ok
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
To get 1 free lootbox you have to complete 20 daily challenges, each day you get 3, so you have to complete them for a week. It's kinda humiliating to be honest but I'm still doing it. But at the same time it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think that's more than fair. Please don't think I'm saying people can't dislike the direction or even voice that. I think that example in the OP was certainly a bit over the top though and we both know those kind of responses are fairly common. I've disliked the direction many games took, but I wasn't about to cuss out the devs and act like they were scum of the earth either. Worst come to worst, I'll play something else.
 
Oct 27, 2017
15,013
I mean, the dev ain't wrong. I'm sure they get a lot of shit every day from 'fans' and his responses are pretty mild overall. I think the pricing model is nonsense, but I also think if you're addressing the devs directly you should remain polite and respectful.
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,833
The psychologists thing isn't even true tho.
I mean, I read it as a confused misinterpretation of "games companies hire experts to accomplish tasks," but people put a very weird spin on it

I've worked at a very large company that used individuals trained in branches of psychology in focus group testing, the same as they have for the last 6 decades. Why aren't people freaking out about that? They're trying to....change their business practices to appeal to consumers! Scary!
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
The constant use of 'they hire PSYCHOLOGISTS to sell these things' is such a bizarre talking point. What's...wrong with psychologists? Would you feel more comfortable if they were hiring surgeons or racecar drivers?
It's a direct result of youtubers fear mongering by spreading myth and speculation. Phrase it a specific way and even the idea that devs make specific design decisions to evoke a specific feeling for the player can AND HAS been demonized by gamers.
 
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Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
You couldn't buy skins in this event because everything was in lootboxes. So you had to buy everything to get 1 skin if you are unlucky. Plus for the most valuable item you had to buy 22 lootboxes AND pay additional money.
Yea it was lame. They changed it though and people are still upset, I believe that is what was being discussed.
 

MattEnth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
561
San Francisco, CA
Im staying out of this one but I will say that everybody, both inside and outside the industry, really underestimates how difficult it is to talk to consumers in the F2P market

Completely agree... I worked at Riot Games for five years, and while it's easy to ridicule F2P business practices, this guy is definitely correct about "freeloaders."

Non-spenders constitute the overwhelming majority of players in free to play games, and they are the big beneficiaries of the business model: enjoy a free, constantly evolving game with a massive community at no cost.

Free to play has immense benefits for gamers when done right (ie not selling power, not separating players, etc.). I think those benefits of F2P are often overlooked.
 

SecondNature

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,154
At the end of the day, though, they can still play the game freely. No one is forcing anyone to spend money on loot boxes. EA/Respawn/Anyone can charge whatever premium they want because they are purely cosmetic and have zero impact on the gameplay. It's purely icing. If they have people willing to pay the premium for their cosmetic loot box offerings, then they're well within their right to continue charging what they want.

If you don't like, then don't buy it. If it's outside of the spending threshold one has set for themselves, then they won't (or shouldn't) buy it. If they do buy it anyway, then they've found a threshold. Voila!

The people who are willing to pay are often times children, who are taught gambling addiction, or adult gamblers who have a problem that is being exploited.

There is no systems in place by these companies to reach out to such people and say "hey, you're spending a lot on our game recently. Here are some resources on gambling addiction". It's 100% a system made to exploit fans.

And yes, it's just cosmetics in a f2p game. Im actually surprised that EA is getting such backlash, but it's clear that previous EA games have added up to the outrage here. At some point, it becomes about the straw that breaks the camel's back.


Notice that there are companies like Activision that have got away with exploiting their customers.

What started out as "just cosmetics" in a $60 paid game has turned to selling DLC weapons that are overpowered and dominating lobbies in Black Ops 4.

So what do kids do when they are beaten by a 1-shot weapon? They spend money on lootboxes to buy it

But oh look, a few weeks after the devs nerf the overpowered weapon, that was obviously overpowered to anyone who would have playtested it.

Now all that money you spent trying to get a weapon is worth nothing.

Do people really think that the devs at Treyarch dont know what they are doing? They have taken complete advantage of gambling, and then screwed those people over. Imagine being that kid who spent around $60 (generous amount) to get lucky enough to get the weapon.

All of a sudden it's nerfed and that $60 is wasted. How is this not blatantly illegal?

Oh, let's not forget that these companies PAY the top youtubers to open up lootboxes on stream, and if Im not mistaken (and I could have misremembered this), they are able to bend the odds in that streamer's favour (I cant find the link for this, and I could be wrong).

What's to stop this from happening at Respawn? The people at Treyarch are COMPLETELY SILENT on this issue by the way. They know better than to start talking about their monetization.

In fact, this is also the theme with IW and the new COD.

There is ZERO TALK by the devs on forums about monetization. We know activision adds things AFTER reviews and day-one purchases. Yet the COD community has completely stayed silent and allowed this to happen.
 

lovecatt

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,427
i don't really blame the devs for hitting back at them. they were being rude as hell

but idk if i believe the argument that more people wouldn't buy skins if they were cheaper
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
4O1jhFu.jpg


Holy shit
Damn


I mean this is factually true because you know

The nazi's. Because that's a fucking problem that exists again.
 

VeePs

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,357
Again, it's not about the prices. It's about the lootbox system: a gambling system where you spend money that adds up to more than some can afford. Spending $18 to buy somehting on the store isnt the issue. Spending $7 here and there to get a chance to win somehting is.

Constructive criticism on the prices and what's wrong with the loot boxes is fine.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

I've been gaming long enough to know how toxic this industry is.

These developers were getting a lot more than constructive criticism. They were getting insulting comments, posts made on reddit, messages on Twitter, being called lazy, getting death threats via DM probably (which happens a decent amount to game reviewers as well), being told they weren't working fast or hard enough, etc etc.

Developers shouldn't be harassed.

And you can only be attacked for so long before you lash out.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,977
You really don't have a clue on the Apex situation if you side with the devs on this one.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
Ah, this again.
The only developer I know of that hires psychologists for monetization/game dev is Valve.

Typically, yet another myth about how games are developed that people have taken and run with as standard.

It's this kind of misinformation that irritates me so much about the discourse on game development on Era.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Just because trash fans exist doesn't mean you should brush off the horrible business practices of a giant corporation

And just because you hate that giant corporation doesn't mean you should hurl abuse at its workers
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,405
California
The constant use of 'they hire PSYCHOLOGISTS to sell these things' is such a bizarre talking point. What's...wrong with psychologists? Would you feel more comfortable if they were hiring surgeons or racecar drivers?

They're looking for ways to exploit mentally vulnerable people. Who knows best how to manipulate the way a person thinks than a person that studies it? Psychologists know all about addictive personalities. They know how best to trick people into buying things they shouldn't by tempting their mind. I'm not even getting into tricking people into being a defender of these practices with tactics similar to snake oil salesmen and gas lighters.

It makes me sick to my stomach to know the game industry went this far in the pursuit of more money.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
These developers were getting a lot more than constructive criticism. They were getting insulting comments, posts made on reddit, messages on Twitter, being called lazy, getting death threats via DM probably (which happens a decent amount to game reviewers as well), being told they weren't working fast or hard enough, etc etc.
This is always the crux of the issue
 

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
The constant use of 'they hire PSYCHOLOGISTS to sell these things' is such a bizarre talking point. What's...wrong with psychologists? Would you feel more comfortable if they were hiring surgeons or racecar drivers?
Nothing, if they hired them to make the game more fun then awesome, but we all now what they hire them for.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,831
Yea it was lame. They changed it though and people are still upset, I believe that is what was being discussed.

An almost perfectly executed "Door in the face technique"

Door-in-the-face technique

The persuader attempts to convince the respondent to comply by making a large request that the respondent will most likely turn down, much like a metaphorical slamming of a door in the persuader's face. The respondent is then more likely to agree to a second, more reasonable request, than if that same request is made in isolation.
 

Shogun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,434
The apologism for devs calling the player base, that they hire psychologists to better make gambling addicts out of, freeloaders is fucking frightening.

It's like the scene from Breaking Bad where Jesse unloads at the self help group.

"You know what - why I'm here in the first place? Is to sell you meth. You're nothing to me but customers."

You know who aren't freeloaders to these devs?
  • Kids who run up their parents credit cards without their knowledge.
  • Kids who have been manipulated to beg their parents for V-bucks.
  • Kids who are ostracized at school because they can't afford a fancy skin in this digital slot machine.

Seriously, fuck this entire predatory industry and their entitlement to people's money via addiction. They aren't creators, they're fucking parasites.

Thank fuck somebody came in here and cut through all of the corporate apologist nonsense. Great post.
 

MrH

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,995
Super unprofessional. They created a decent game but since then have failed massively imo, slow patches, awful season pass and now this $200 event nonsense. I have no issue with gamers calling out greed, and an $18 skin is just that. Monetization is getting out of hand in general and it's only going to get worse if we just accept it.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
You're basically comparing apples to oranges, a single player expansion being free is not really the same as a multiplayer game being free, the sort of addiction that mp games cause and the pressure of some people to spend money is something that these companies prey on.
So I guess I don't understand the alternative? I'm assuming you think just the existence of f2p mp games are predatory. So what is the alternative? There are a lot of people that really love Apex, just NOT making it would be really disappointing. So charging a base price? You couldn't charge $60 for a mp only br game. So $40? But no other Br game is paid to play, so you'll surely be dead by now if you did that. So you copy the models out there already? But now you have to charge for thing piece meal, which becomes "predatory" no matter what... so what do you do? Price it so that all cosmetics in the game are total to $40? But then you have the majority of players buying 1-2 skins paying $1-2. How is that sustainable?

I definitely think $18 is way too much, but I feel most people that wouldn't buy a $18 skin wouldn't buy a $10 skin. Which is what that dev was saying...

Who knows though. This is all so esoteric and superficial. My dream would be to have a like town hall where devs and gamers could just talk about shit, I hate all the arguing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
The last thing I will say about this is that there is definitely a conversation to be had about toxicity in gaming circles, there's no debating that. But I don't like that this person is conflating that issue with the also big issue of predatory microtransactions.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
The constant use of 'they hire PSYCHOLOGISTS to sell these things' is such a bizarre talking point. What's...wrong with psychologists? Would you feel more comfortable if they were hiring surgeons or racecar drivers?

Dude, this is some brain porridge.

Are you seriously asking if we'd feel more comfortable if they hired non-experts to develop gambling mechanics aimed primarily at minors?

Like do you even understand what the core issue here is?
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Why would I want to side with toxic asshats who shit on the dev team constantly then have a meltdown when they get some of the insulting back
I don't want to " side with anyone " but I would also not side with the giant corperation trying to sell gambling to children and preditory monetization. I personally don't think anyone should be siding with anyone in this situation. Some people were being shits, some devs called them out. But the larger backdrop for this problem is the issue
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Gamers can be the absolute worst for "dish it, but can't take it". They'll spew endless vitriol to devs, calling them the worst things possible, and then suddenly find a moral center when devs (who are, at the end of the day humans, and not punching bags the way audiences tend to think) react strongly
I like Jim Sterling as much as anyone but there are ways to push back against micro transactions and not be a complete twat.

Amen
Or you know, the people sputing toxic shit and the ones not liking the get called freeloaders, or don't like getting lumped in with these assholes just because they complained about something, are different people. Can't be though. The monolith "the gamer" is running rampant yet again.