Apex Legends developers spark outrage after calling gamers “dicks”, “ass-hats”and “freeloaders”

[SecondNature]

Yeah been watching this all unfold on reddit

fans are fed up with lootboxes being predatory. They insist that they would support the game with fair price, and that lootboxes arent fair.

They point to EA's constant attempts in the past with trying to implement lootboxes to say that the devs walking back on MTX isnt some innocent mistake, but a purposeful attempt at trying to normalize the lootbox model. They see through the apology. Theres been tons of memes and stuff on the subreddit joking and mocking EA/Respawn over it.

they made a montage of EA apologies, their PR speak, and compare the $18 in games like DOTA and Siege (feature complete with voice overs, new models, items, etc) to an $18 skin in Apex being a bald version of a character. There isnt much effort in Apex compared to other games charging $18

Im surprised Apex fans arent taking this.

meanwhile in cod, overpowered dlc guns are still behind lootboxes, and then get nerfed into the ground after kids spend hundreds on trying to win try and win them

 

[RPGam3r]

I don't mind this response. I'm tired of gamer outrage over shit like microtransactions (especially in free to play titles where the microtransaction is cosmetic). Good for them fighting back rather then taking it like so many before them.

 

[Meg Cherry]

It's incredibly unprofessional but they're not far off the mark at all

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First post nails it.

The problem is that Respawn Devs typically take a very casual & honest tone when replying in that subreddit, and this is the first bit of outrage where people are just not in the mood for being casually antagonized.

Any other week of the year, that exact reply would've gone unnoticed.

 

[Brock2621]

A hobbiest consumer of your product called you a poopy-face and in turn a professionally employed developer of a multi-billion dollar company with a massive megaphone responded with equally disrespectful trash-talk? It's not that honorable in my humble opinion. I really think there should be a little more consideration involved (for example, start with not calling people "d*cks, tw*ts or c*nts).

I dunno, maybe I'm old school and look up to Japanese culture too much? 🤷‍♂️

 

[Deleted member 10726]

Reading through the stuff on reddit, I'd say mostly everyone involved there looks pretty bad. Though I think it's unprofessional, at the same time Respawn is free to match the tone they're met with if that's what they think is best. They are only people like everyone else, and I can understand the devs responding this way.

 

[Deleted member 56306]

They literally acknowledged it and back-tracked on the model for the current event and said they will look to improve on future ones.

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I feel like this conversation is about two different points in this kerfluffle lol. The person you are responding to is talking about the new prices, not the old event. I think.

 

[Minilla]

Lmao, era defending respawn. Good grief

 

[Manu]

They targeted gamers. GAMERS.

 

[Altair]

 

[Wamb0wneD]

I'm not sure if you thought this would change my mind, but you may be surprised to find that it did not!

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I think we can agree on finding the whole spiel tiring, just for different reasons. I still remember when that out of season april fools joke guy at Blizzcon made game devs and jornos go apeshit on Twitter like he insulted everyone's family for voicing his disappointment.

Like, if death threats are made that's absolutely something that needs to be adressed and get handled appropriately. Toxic idiots should just get ignored though, and people who are the target of more or less legitimate criticism should stop deflecting said criticism by constantly pointing to the inevitable assholes popping up. The fact they are inevitable is a problem that needs to be adressed as well, but not every single time a publisher or game dev fucks up in their decision making.

Your own example shows how the original point gets lost every single time. Is it because of the morons that post dumb shit or is it because the people who the original point is aimed at gladly take those morons' posts to not talk about said point anymore. Every. Time.

 

[benj]

They literally acknowledged it and back-tracked on the model for the current event and said they will look to improve on future ones.

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I don't think that's really an accurate description of what happened. They added another way to directly buy items at prices that are consistent with what legendary skins have cost in the past. They are maintaining their current pricing model and extending it to event pricing. I don't know how you get to "back-tracked" from that.

As they've explicitly said, they do not sell substantially more skins when they drop the price. Skins are a luxury item, and the demand for luxury items is relatively independent of its pricing.

 

[HockeyBird]

Gamers: Why is Apex so unsupported compared to Fortnite?

Devs: *Try to raise the revenue necessary to be able to support the game*

Gamers: WOW WHAT GREEDY FUCKS

sorrynotsorry, but this is my take. Y'all know what you're signing up for when you play F2P games. And FFS, these are just skins, not P2W stuff like Weapons or Stat Boosts. The time to complain was when Fortnite set the prices.

Now of course there is some room to complain on the game using lootboxes. Even Epic is above that - Even if Fortnite's store model could actually be seen as worse by exploiting FOMO instead of Gambling.

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I don't follow Fornite at all but I'm sure Epic gets it's fair bit of criticism about their monetary practices thrown their way. Do they ever really address it or do they just keep quiet and let the consumers put their money where their mouths are? I feel like it's the later since people have seemed to accepted what Fortnite is doing.

 

[bane833]

Lmao, era defending respawn. Good grief

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Please think of the millionaires who scam children!

 

[Nome]

A hobbiest consumer of your product called you a poopy-face and in turn a professionally employed developer of a multi-billion dollar company with a massive megaphone responded with equally disrespectful trash-talk? It's not that honorable in my humble opinion. I really think there should be a little more consideration involved.

I dunno, maybe I'm old school and look up to Japanese culture too much? 🤷‍♂️

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Yeah, they really shot themselves in the foot there.

 

[pronk]

I feel sorry for them if they lose their jobs over this, the 'headline' sound bad but what they actually said seems justified to be honest. It's the same old 'abuse isn't justified but...' bullshit from people whining about a video game.

 

[Derfy]

I pay enough to support respawn on apex.Their response to their customers because even if they dont pay they keep the playerbase healthy is unprofessional. Before trying to be the next Fortnite try to build a community. Fortnite has a better season pass and all their skins are not priced at 20€ .And their not premium skins are not paintjob of'the same skins.
If you dont understand this that's because you have not played enough of the two Games.respawn is not an indie studio they know what they are doing. By the way support for titanfall2 was awful
I will not buy any game of a studio that spit on their customers like that.

 

[El-Suave]

More ammo for the outrage Youtubers I guess. I used to be in that circle of hell getting fed video after video getting on the soap box and upset at the smallest of things. It can be fun when there is a big f... up like Fallout 76 or Anthem, but there comes the point when enough is enough and those guys keep milking the "scandals". Get out of there and away from those people is all I can recommend, it's really liberating!

 

[Phellps]

Probably not the best thing to say amidst controversy, but he's not wrong.

 

[Deleted member 18379]

Here is an easy solution. Stop playing this game. It's pretty annoying that the majority in this thread seem to be taking the side of the corporation that is employing psychological manipulation to exploit what they refer to as "super whales". But I guess it wouldn't be a normal day on era without posters attacking the vague group known as "gamers" while simultaneously licking the corporate boots of known exploiters.

 

[Shin-Ra]

If you don't like how a game or platform's being run, stop playing/using it. Stop giving 'feedback' and giving second, third, fourth, fifth chances and then expect new games to learn from past mistakes.

Reward the games/devs/pubs that get it right from the very start.

 

[Mullet2000]

The dev is right. The team making Apex Legends addressed the criticism of their model. They will make changes going forward. We'll see how the changes work but the first step is the addressed the issue. All the horseshit that immediately followed is unacceptable.

This is a fucking business. I don't get why some of you don't get this. They do not have any obligation to do anything other than make money. FTP games are paid for by a small group of people who spend money. Everyone else gets the core game for free. Most people are not buying shit whether its $20 or $2. The game is going to be structured as such. That's how it works. If you hate the model you're free to talk about that respectfully but you aren't entitled to shit on a developer and harass them because your mad about their practice. Especially you aren't even paying anything for the game you are playing to begin with.

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What's the context justifying being dicks to the developers of a game? Did you read the response to that dev's post?

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It's Reddit. If you've seen how they react to all sorts of things you'd understand. I think you will see a lot of people who do understand the context, and don't disagree with being disappointed at the pricing but don't agree with attacking the developers outright.

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Obviously I do not agree with attacking the devs about this.

But I'm also not surprised that they get reactions like this because we live in an environment where if you do not loudly voice your displeasure to businesses and companies about what you feel is anti-consumer you will be promptly ignored and nothing will change. That does not in anyway justify direct personal attacks against individual people are the company, obviously. They should be directing that displeasure in a broad sense toward the developer as a whole.

I just find it weird lately that there seems to be a cherry picking of the worst comments and people who go too far, then those are pointed to as evidence that "gamers are trash" and "see devs are right" and the over-all criticism gets dismissed. We're in a high tension environment when it comes to customer-company relationships right now and I think it would be much more productive to say that collective voicing of displeasure is a good thing but the rude/asshole posts specifically are unacceptable, not the way to do it and should be pointed out as such.

Instead I feel like we're getting this weird self-loathing "fuck gamers, I side with the devs" thing happening here lately whenever this happens when the reality is the vast majority of people are just trying to call out what they view as anti-consumer practices and are not acting this way.

 

[Deleted member 4037]

It's not about moving past anything, you can complain and engage with devs and the community in a normal way that doesn't end up becoming insulting. On reddit communities I've seen some great and well thought out posts that look at an issue and give solid ideas and feedback. Though these get drowned out by gamers rise up craziness.

So complain and make comments just don't be a dick and insulting about it.

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Sure, there are a lot of one off comments of "I dont see whats wrong" or "go respawn" that kind of are brushing away that something wrong is going on. Reddit needs to calm down, but this feels like a distraction when people seem so eager to praise the devs for being unprofessional in kind

 

[TheRulingRing]

I'm always tickled by posters saying devs should have better PR when they speak candidly, and then saying devs should be honest when they use PR.
I know it's not the same folks and all, but it just proves you can't satisfy everyone.

Re: the dev's post, they're mostly right. Conversion can be affected by price points, but the percentage of converters is mostly stable. Lowering the price point of a skin isn't automatically going to unlock a tidal wave of new people buying things, much to the chagrin of all the posters in the other Apex thread who clearly have never even installed the game and were commenting about event pricing.

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You can speak "candidly" without resorting to insults (keep that stuff behind closed doors if you must, I don't know how this is even up for debate).

I mean, the dev's right about players being dicks and about their monetisation model, but you can't lash out like that in a professional capacity.

 

[freakybj]

I'm struggling to believe Respawn's claim that price reductions have almost no uplift to revenue since most people are "freeloaders." Then why would they price items so high? Is it because they know that a small percentage of people (i.e. whales) actually buy this stuff?

 

[Deleted member 6056]

Kinda sounds to me like both sides are right to be honest.
Gamers are toxic to devs in great abundance and do fall easily into mob mentality and parrot things but the devs are really greedy on this game's cosmetics at those prices and should expect backlash. One is a fair generalization of the environment devs face as a whole really and the other is a very pointed assessment of this specific case scenario and not a generalization at all and is easily something they should have seen coming at those prices.

Problem is both sides have pissed each other off. Devs are fedup overall with this over everything regardless of what this instance is about and the consumers are tired of this shit and dont feel like being told about the general landscape when what they are talking about is a very specific issue that is legit.

Folks need to learn to file grievances and respond to them professionally on a case per case basis in a calm manner like adults. Both sides are tired. Doesn't help either of them to get mouthy. Folks need to learn to argue with some modicum of politeness or your just gonna see more companies get fedup and implode out of spite rather than address the concerns in a reasonable manner with the gamers who are acting immature in how they communicate any sort of discomfort.

Both sides in this are right about some things and both sides are behaving so so wrong in this situation leading to no one benefitting from the line of communication they established.Outrage culture at its finest.

 

[Kyuuji]

I don't think that's really an accurate description of what happened. They added another way to directly buy items at prices that are consistent with what legendary skins have cost in the past. They are maintaining their current pricing model and extending it to event pricing. I don't know how you get to "back-tracked" from that.

As they've explicitly said, they do not sell substantially more skins when they drop the price. Skins are a luxury item, and the demand for luxury items is relatively independent of its pricing.

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From their update:

At launch we made a promise to players that we intend to do monetization in a way that felt fair and provided choice to players on how they spent their money and time. A core decision during development of Apex Legends was that we wanted to make a world class battle royale game - in quality, depth, progression, and important for today's conversation - how we sell stuff. With the Iron Crown event we missed the mark when we broke our promise by making Apex Packs the only way to get what many consider to be the coolest skins we've released*.*

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How is that them not acknowledging that they've overextended, which is what you originally took issue to me saying in my post.

 

[Deleted member 20471]

No lies detected.

 

[KOB]

It's interesting to me how many people defend developers no matter what. They're people, absolutely, but because they make games somehow they're not allowed to be attacked?

Respawn knew exactly what the fuck they were doing by their initial pricing, plus the current price of skins. They wanted to feed off these "whales" and make as much money as possible. Initially I always associated the term whales with individuals who had enough disposable income to blow hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on skins, packs, etc. we KNOW this is not the case. We know that people who have gambling problems are addicted to this and blowing away their limited income and incurring debt, and it's obvious they need help but do the developers care? Doesn't seem like it.

Maybe I'm completely off the mark but if we saw in a different setting, say for example the insane APR some of these banks, or those loans targeting low income individuals, have would some of us not attack them for their shitty predatory practices? Taking advantage of people is never ok no matter the setting.

 

[Nome]

You can speak "candidly" without resorting to insults (keep that stuff behind closed doors if you must, I don't know how this is even up for debate).

I mean, the dev's right about players being dicks and about their monetisation model, but you can't lash out like that in a professional capacity.

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Sometimes you don't actually want a particular type of player in your game. That's when you tell them to fuck off.

 

[Aleh]

It's about time devs started replying back to some of these awful people. I don't even like how they handled the lootboxes stuff but receiving abuse for so long must be maddening.

 

[mrmickfran]

Microtransactions are garbage but that gamers response is even worse

 

[CruJones33Rad]

I didn't care for the freeloaders comment at all. These companies are here to make money. Anything they do will always come back to that, no matter what. Just like your boss, the company you work for, the government. Everyone will take from you, that is how the system is designed. The only way to resist is to let your voice be heard and hope you can gather a bunch of people on your side, in hopes of slightly tilting the balance back in your direction. Otherwise they'll just continue to screw us over and over again.

 

[Einbroch]

Lmao, era defending respawn. Good grief

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We're defending humans from other humans who are being vile, not the pricing model.

If you can't separate the two issues then you have another problem.

 

[benj]

From their update:

How is that them not acknowledging that they've overextended, which is what you originally took issue to me saying in my post.

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"Monetization" isn't a one-to-one with "pricing model." They haven't altered their core pricing model. They have changed how some goods are acquired, incorporating them into the core pricing model from the event-specific pricing model they were using beforehand.

 

[Mobyduck]

It's interesting to me how many people defend developers no matter what. They're people, absolutely, but because they make games somehow they're not allowed to be attacked?

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Considering the reason they were attacked for, no, gamers are not allowed to attack the devs. Period.

 

[benj]

I'm struggling to believe Respawn's claim that price reductions have almost no uplift to revenue since most people are "freeloaders." Then why would they price items so high? Is it because they know that a small percentage of people (i.e. whales) actually buy this stuff?

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They price items so high because pricing them lower does not substantially increase demand, so you price items upward until further price-raising would have a deleterious effect on demand. That is how luxury goods are priced.

 

[oliverandm]

Yes. They're calling childish, unfair and violent gamers all of these things, and they're right.

The rest of us - those who can construct and opinion without being assholes - are likely not to be categorized like this.

There's context and that matters. You don't get a freepass to be an asshole just because you're behind a keyboard and screen. They're not having it, and if these attackers were to act the way they do in real life, and don't think anyone would have it either.

 

[Courage]

The pervading hostility between people in the gaming industry and people who play games remains unparalleled. I wonder why.

 

[Deleted member 49438]

Not gonna defend the Apex players that are harassing this guy, & it's a tough situation to be in for a community manager. I will say that personally I think his comments are a bad look, but if EA/Respawn are okay with his responses then I won't comment on whether this is a "suitably professional" response. Some of his comments are definitely a bit inflammatory, but there's definitely truth to his words & I understand why he'd feel compelled to make them. I'm sure that a good chunk of the fans are trying to engage with him in a respectful manner, but when there's a deluge of negativity it's tough to just "be the bigger person" . Many players have the unrealistic expectation that you will brush it off even when a number of people are harassing you.

From what I can tell the updates they applied to the iron crown event fix a couple issues, but it's still pretty aggressively monetized especially if you want the "heirloom" item. The asking price for some of this stuff is beyond my comprehension, but I'm sure his comments about how few people buy at any price are what drive this model. Really drives home that some of these games subsist off of the so-called "whales". In the end it's tough because this community manager is a victim in his own way of the aggressive monetization practices, as they are the cause of the backlash in the first place.

Imo both sides are justified in their anger to a certain extent, but as usual some people take it too far and it just causes everything to go even further to shit. Hopefully everyone is happy with the next event & we don't have a repeat, but if it doesn't happen here, it's coming down the pipeline somewhere else in the gaming community. That's just the way it is now.

 

[BBboy20]

"Dicks"

Ok.

"Ass-Hats"

Ok.

"Freeloaders"

...that is potentially right-wingish there.

 

[Minilla]

We're defending humans from other humans who are being vile, not the pricing model.

If you can't separate the two issues then you have another problem.

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Yeah, those devs being super nice.......

 

[Deleted member 8861]

Gamer toxicity or lootbox backlash? Hmm

 

[btkadams]

He's not wrong but it's really not something that he should be putting out in that environment, especially with that choice of words. Its not a time to vent or be defensive when you are still getting rightfully called out for poor monetization practices.

 

[Secretofmateria]

I wouldnt even engage with that guy. Gamers can be so shitty and entitled. The dev shouldnt have lost his cool but i dont blame him. I would never be a game developer knowing the shit that gets thrown at you on the internet

 

[Derfy]

It's about time devs started replying back to some of these awful people. I don't even like how they handled the lootboxes stuff but receiving abuse for so long must be maddening.

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They can choose to mute the users. It's just a click and nobody sell the functionnality for 20 bucks.

 

[Kyuuji]

"Monetization" isn't a one-to-one with "pricing model." They haven't altered their core pricing model. They have changed how some goods are acquired, incorporating them into the core pricing model from the event-specific pricing model they were using beforehand.

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I literally don't know why you're continuing to act like they didn't overextend in the pricing of the event, and didn't subsequently backtrack on that.

 

[Sidebuster]

The dev is right. Things have changed for the worse in gaming (and honestly society in general). The discourse is disappearing. Nobody wants to listen to the other. We're too quick to just name call. And frankly we are all becoming bigger loud mouthed assholes who can't articulate our feelings without resorting to acting immature. Gamers are becomming too attached to the games they play. You're mentally unhealthy if you find yourself incredibly angry when something like $18 skins happens. You can be upset, but you have to remember it's just a game. Let it go and move on. If you really want to get back at these bad practices, let the developers know it, be cordial, and be done. They're learn the hard way when they hemorrhage users. No need to act like a screaming child.

The gamer is also right. Developers and publishers are starting to dip their toes over what is a morally fair way to earn themselves money. They're also expecting their users to be brainless animals who only consume and don't complain. It's not right that they're psychologically trying to manipulate their weakest willed users into buying more things than they should to support their game. It's just wrong and horrible to want to mindlessly extract as much money you can regardless of the mental health of the end user. Just like foraging for food. When you come across a patch of edibles, you only take what you need and you make sure you leave the rest to regrow. What the developers want to do is wipe out the entire ecosystem damn sustainability.

 

[Scuffed]

We're defending humans from other humans who are being vile, not the pricing model.

If you can't separate the two issues then you have another problem.

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Harassment is never warranted and neither is extremely toxic rhetoric. I do want to point out though that what the Apex did wasn't just a "pricing model" it was predatory mtx turned up to 10. It's great to callout scumbags who get vicious online but there is no need to use soft terms like "a pricing model" when describing what Respawn did. Call a spade a spade. The Apex mtx was a travesty and predatory and the harassers online are scumbags.

 

[Nome]

"Dicks"

Ok.

"Ass-Hats"

Ok.

"Freeloaders"

...that is potentially right-wingish there.

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lol

That's enough Era for me today

 

[JigglesBunny]

Seeing Respawn tumble these past few days has been really damn rough. Maybe Titanfall wasn't sustainable for much longer but had they stuck with Titanfall 3, it certainly never would have led them here. In any case, as unprofessional as this is, they're not exactly wrong. The outrage machine never slows down and social media allows for the most vitriolic shit to get directly into the ears of the people that it's directed at. The behavior of these communities need to change.