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Deleted member 3812

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
The AP is reporting that PG&E has begun another round of blackouts today, October 29th, that is expected to "affect nearly 600,000 customers in 29 counties, or about 1.5 million people" for "five days or longer":


SANTA ROSA, Calif. (AP) — Frustration and anger mounted across Northern California as the state's biggest utility began another round of fire-prevention blackouts Tuesday that could leave millions of people without electricity, some for five days or longer.

The shut-offs, aimed at keeping windblown electrical equipment from sparking wildfires, came as fire crews raced to contain two major blazes in Northern and Southern California before the winds picked up again. The fires have destroyed dozens of homes in Los Angeles and in Sonoma County wine country.

Pacific Gas & Electric Corp. said its latest blackout would affect nearly 600,000 customers in 29 counties, or about 1.5 million people. The announcement came even before the end of the last blackout, which shut off power to more than 2.5 million people over the weekend.

People searched for places to charge cellphones and stocked up on ice after PG&E gave warning.

Petaluma resident Scotty Richardson, whose lights went out Saturday, said the prospect that power might not be restored for days makes him "furious, furious."

He vented frustration at the on-again, off-again outages over the past few weeks but also anger at the utility's role in causing deadly fires in the past, and apparently sparking some of this season's blazes.

"PG&E can't figure out how to deliver power reliably without killing people," he said. "This is more than three strikes — it's a failure of epic proportions."

Many Californians are skeptical of PG&E's motives for the blackouts and contend the utility is more concerned with its finances than the inconvenience it is causing.

"It's so obvious it's just to protect them from more liability," Janet Luoma of Santa Rosa said at a Red Cross evacuation shelter.

At the shelter in Santa Rosa, Chris Sherman plugged his laptop into a wall outlet and charged his phone while he waited for the all-clear to go home, while anticipating that once he did, he could lose power.

"They don't seem to know what the hell they're doing," he said of PG&E. "I'm not sure that they're really protecting anything."

In Lafayette, near San Francisco, where many people lost power on Saturday, people criticized PG&E for poorly communicating about the shutoffs.

"Are we getting power tomorrow, are we not getting power tomorrow? We don't know," said Kelly Bitzer, who came to a Safeway supermarket looking for an outlet to charge her phone.

"PG&E has spent millions of dollars giving bonuses to their executives, but they can't keep up with their infrastructure needs," she said. "It's very frustrating."

State response to PG&E's blackouts:

U.S. Rep. Josh Harder, a Democrat from Modesto, said he plans to introduce legislation that would raise PG&E's taxes if it pays bonuses to executives while engaging in blackouts.

The California Public Utilities Commission plans to open an investigation into the blackouts that could result in fines against PG&E if it is found to have broken any rules.

The commission said it also plans to review the rules governing blackouts, will look to prevent utilities from charging customers when the power is off and will convene experts to find grid improvements that might lessen shut-offs next fire season.

The state can't continue experiencing such widespread blackouts, "nor should Californians be subject to the poor execution that PG&E in particular has exhibited," PUC President Marybel Batjer said in a statement.
 

maxxpower

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,950
California
And they keep starting fires with their fucking equipment. Talk about failing upwards.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,125
They need to be seized by the state, controllers, board of directors sent to jail.

Then turn it into a state run utility use the national guard to bury the lines.
 

djplaeskool

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,751
PG&E needs to be taken to the cleaners until they either modernize their infrastructure

At this point, they've become so much of a public hazard, I wouldn't be shocked to see more support for a full on take-over

Edit: Fuck I forgot they had filed for Ch.11 Bankruptcy earlier this year (shocker, due to wildfires from 2017 and 2018)
I wonder if that shields them from certain financial punitive action.
 

HammerOfThor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,860
Legit question, but how is this legal? How are lawmakers not doing anything to do this?

Also, does PGE own all the power lines? Do they have some sort of timed contact with California? I don't live there so I have very limited knowledge of how this all works.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 3812

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
PG&E needs to be taken to the cleaners until they either modernize their infrastructure

At this point, they've become so much of a public hazard, I wouldn't be shocked to see more support for a full on take-over

Edit: Fuck I forgot they had filed for Ch.11 Bankruptcy earlier this year (shocker, due to wildfires from 2017 and 2018)
I wonder if that shields them from certain financial punitive action.

It looks like PG&E's stock value is significantly devalued currently, 52 week high was $49.42, currently it's under $5.00:



49
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,605
It looks like PG&E's stock value is significantly devalued currently, 52 week high was $49.42, currently it's under $5.00

Yeah that's fair. I see smoke in the distance again today, and last night had that eerie smokey sunset, where there's those darker shades of orange. Not bad enough to make the sun red yet, though :/
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,026
Honestly this feels like the sort of thing a supervillain would do to to hold the State to ransom.

And it's a fucking power company.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
You'd think we'd have a conversation about nationalizing utilities right about now.
And property buybacks and restrictions in development in fire country....

Focusing on the utility companies is a misdirection and an easy out for the general populace.

This is the same thing when it comes to ousting shortage and developers. The general populace is focusing on all the wrong targets when the real problem is not enough housing in the first place.

The problem is pg&e I'm sure but the real problem is that the general populace wants to continuously build in fire country then act all surprised when thier houses burn.
 
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gdt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,491
These people should go to The Dominican Republic for a week and stay and my aunt's house en lo campo.

Power situation would be the same


Que paso

Se fue la lu
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
If the weather is good enough and you install a battery or two, absolutely for 6 days.

I'm not saying it's cheap or easy, but as climate change becomes a problem for electrical infrastructure we should probably start relying on it less.

Its the exact opposite. As climate change becomes worse you need to rely more on a strong power grid. What you are advocating is to INSANELY increase the CO2 and dollar cost of each kWh.
 
Jan 29, 2018
9,394
That seems..bizarre. Here in KS, solar powers hook into an inverter that charges a battery, and only goes back into the grid if: Battery is full, House has sufficient power, AND there's still extra left over.

Not sure about California but in some states solar systems are required to shut off if connected to the grid and the grid is out for safety reasons.

Plus batteries are an expensive add on to solar systems, not necessarily included.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,826
Honestly this feels like the sort of thing a supervillain would do to to hold the State to ransom.

And it's a fucking power company.
"Oh, you don't want me to turn off the power to millions of people? Then you'll just have to pay me...
giphy.gif
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,075
Pennsylvania

GatsGatsby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,282
West Columbia, SC
Obviously not working since LA is burning. If anything wouldnt this encourage people to use firepits or fire drums outside to hang out. Which could cause more fucking fires. Generators only last so long if you have one.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
How would relying on solar increase carbon pollution?

Each household size PV is way less efficient than a grid size solar, wind, hydro, geo or coal generator. You spend more resources to get less power. Batteries and power electronics don't grow on trees, you have to mine them and transport them.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648

You design your battery bank to support something maybe 12 hours of normal operation. Every day where you get so-so sun, the battery gets drained more than its charged. Solar irradiance is not a constant, so the further you go the less reliable the system becomes. Compound on this that solar would be useless close to the fires because of the atmospheric occlusion.
 

Starviper

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,431
Minneapolis
How is turning off the power not illegal?


If I understand correctly they were found to be at-fault for some of the fires in 2017/2018, causing them to go bankrupt. I imagine they're trying to avoid any liability issues for further fire damage, and since the fires are widespread they're trying to avoid incurring any further charges.

If the issue is related to simply burying the cables, I imagine it can be done but California is so mountainous this probably costs far more money than they can afford to pay out. The company is screwed. I'm not sure what course of action can really be taken beyond the government of California stepping in, but they may have some laws that make it impossible for the state to own the company.
 

Masoyama

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Oct 27, 2017
5,648
if they have batteries, don't waste electricity, and have decently clear weather, it can easily be done. i have a sunrun installation and have produced more power than used for the overwhelming majority of the time.

It looks easy when you have the grid. All that extra power you are injecting into the grid would have nowhere to go. Running it for a few days is fine, but long term, all these inefficiencies and sizing constraints dominate.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Each household size PV is way less efficient than a grid size solar, wind, hydro, geo or coal generator. You spend more resources to get less power. Batteries and power electronics don't grow on trees, you have to mine them and transport them.

Not true. You can use recycled lithium ion batteries to reduce the impact of mining.

There's a guy in California who's whole house is running on solar panels and powerwalls made from recycled laptop batteries.

Check it out:


Not saying we should eliminate the grid completely, but we can start redesigning residential buildings to be more independent in the event of grid failure. Same with hospitals.

The grid can't survive in a world where wildfires and hurricanes are happening multiple times a year. We need to build something that lets us stay alive when these systems inevitably fail.
 

Masoyama

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Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Not true. You can use recycled lithium ion batteries to reduce the impact of mining.

There's a guy in California who's whole house is running on solar panels and powerwalls made from recycled laptop batteries.

Check it out:


Not saying we should eliminate the grid completely, but we can start redesigning residential buildings to be more independent in the event of grid failure. Same with hospitals.

The grid can't survive in a world where wildfires and hurricanes are happening multiple times a year. We need to build something that lets us stay alive when these systems inevitably fail.


Area to volume problem is way more severe in buildings and hospitals. Simply not feasible. Solar is also not infinitely reliable. Hint: solar and wind are also down during hurricanes and fires.

And some guys pet project is no substitute for the stuff we actually need. We cannot just recycle lithium at the scale we would need. You seem to just not grasp how much of a colossal project would moving towards all solar would be.
 

Drowner

Banned
May 20, 2019
608
I can't imagine going 5 days without electricity.... Reading books/not having Google/ having to've paid my bills beforehand etc would be uncomfortable but manageable, but I'm not about to take cold showers, eat packaged-no-need-to-cook foods, and not do laundry for 5 days. And of course there are people with greater needs than me. The fact that this is happening in the US is just bizarre to me. Like someone else said, Utilities need proper government oversight.
 

studyguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,282
Part of the issue is a lot of us are getting blackouts and still see massive fires break out, down south we got some blackouts and my city itself has had a ton of smaller fires break out almost every day. Obviously not having down power lines causing fire is great, but it feels like nothing has been accomplished in the meantime and all you get is confusion as you try to get information on local fires while your power/net might be down. Vividly recall sitting in pitch black during the Thomas Fire as the mountains were ablaze, the telephone and powerlines went out and all we were getting was shitty radio signals that might not inform your area specifically since EVERYWHERE was ablaze.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Area to volume problem is way more severe in buildings and hospitals. Simply not feasible. Solar is also not infinitely reliable. Hint: solar and wind are also down during hurricanes and fires.

And some guys pet project is no substitute for the stuff we actually need. We cannot just recycle lithium at the scale we would need. You seem to just not grasp how much of a colossal project would moving towards all solar would be.

There are already hospitals with solar power.

How is a fire going to stop solar power from working? Unless the house is on fire it's still gonna work. Sure you have a point with the hurricane, but as long as your batteries have power you'll be fine for a while at least vs having no power. Plus you won't have to wait for the lines to be repaired with your own panels.

Did you not watch the video? There is a university professor who specializes in battery research who is vouching for a lot of these claims.

It's not just one dude's project, people are doing this all over the world. We have a massive surplus of lithium ion batteries sitting in warehouses and landfills collecting dust. All of that can be used.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
You'd think we'd have a conversation about nationalizing utilities right about now.


I think roads, rail, and some other federal infrastructure could have a nationalized aspect but the US is not set up for this currently - and a nationalized company would be a bad idea - however, federal regulation and enforcement of certain infrastructure maintenance should be passed. I think that basic steps, like forcing new construction housing above a certain basis to include solar panels, could have a spectacular effect on energy consumption and obviously local creation reduces demand on the dangerous failing power lines - and redirects money to its proper sustainment. Wind power too could be federally mandated in places it makes sense, but the onus and management should be on individual local utilities or authorities.

I'd also love to see the Federal government enforce proper construction methods. Many american local and interstate roads are built deliberately poorly so that maintenance contracts can keep local construction entities in permanent business - and it's vastly more expensive than building the road properly in the first place - as any German who has visited this country could tell you. Our roads are also dangerous as well as shoddy, and thousands of people die as a result of shitty enginereering - and your car wears out faster too.

Automated driving will require better road infrastructure for maximum efficiency too.
 
Mar 3, 2019
1,831
Can California just straight up nationalize the electric grid? Its a little too late now, the problems will take years to fix, but for the future?
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,275
There are two factors behind the outages: poor maintenance of its equipment (failure to spend money over the years) but also fears of future lawsuits if stray fires burn houses. Can't sue PG&E if they turn the power off during the windiest and dryest times.

Obviously the state coming in and taking over in some capacity and spending the money (where does it come from?) to upgrade the equipment to modern standards is ultimately a necessity since clearly PG&E can't get the job done, but also figuring out the ways to handle lawsuits so that negligence isn't "tolerated" but at the same time when shit happens because natural disasters overwhelm any system, people can't add unfair legal/monetary burdens to any entity that provides power to large numbers of people.

I also wonder what all these actions are having on businesses in Northern California, a lot of them have to be thinking hard about relocating partially, as this power problem could last decades and only get much worse.
 

Deleted member 16365

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Oct 27, 2017
4,127
Blackout, schmackout. California should be investigating the criminal way in which PG&E let their shit fall into disrepair that's resulted in tens of thousands of acres being burned and who knows how many deaths and property damage.

Blackouts are shitty, but we shouldn't lose site of the fact that PG&E's negligence has cost lives.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
There are two factors behind the outages: poor maintenance of its equipment (failure to spend money over the years) but also fears of future lawsuits if stray fires burn houses. Can't sue PG&E if they turn the power off during the windiest and dryest times.

Obviously the state coming in and taking over in some capacity and spending the money (where does it come from?) to upgrade the equipment to modern standards is ultimately a necessity since clearly PG&E can't get the job done, but also figuring out the ways to handle lawsuits so that negligence isn't "tolerated" but at the same time when shit happens because natural disasters overwhelm any system, people can't add unfair legal/monetary burdens to any entity that provides power to large numbers of people.

I also wonder what all these actions are having on businesses in Northern California, a lot of them have to be thinking hard about relocating partially, as this power problem could last decades and only get much worse.

I once had to help a TSO in NY state in planning something. Their relays were from the 80s and you had to physically connect them to a DOS machine to get data readouts or change anything.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Can California just straight up nationalize the electric grid? Its a little too late now, the problems will take years to fix, but for the future?
The problem (that no one wants to admit) is California never should have built these towns and structures in a environment in which fires are a natural part.

No on wants to admit that the increasing severity is the natural end point of 50 years of fighting forest fires, more so than climate change.

I once had to help a TSO in NY state in planning something. Their relays were from the 80s and you had to physically connect them to a DOS machine to get data readouts or change anything.

20 years ago you could take down any one of the three electrical grids with a radio, admin, password. (SCADA)
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
There are two factors behind the outages: poor maintenance of its equipment (failure to spend money over the years) but also fears of future lawsuits if stray fires burn houses. Can't sue PG&E if they turn the power off during the windiest and dryest times.

Obviously the state coming in and taking over in some capacity and spending the money (where does it come from?) to upgrade the equipment to modern standards is ultimately a necessity since clearly PG&E can't get the job done, but also figuring out the ways to handle lawsuits so that negligence isn't "tolerated" but at the same time when shit happens because natural disasters overwhelm any system, people can't add unfair legal/monetary burdens to any entity that provides power to large numbers of people.

I also wonder what all these actions are having on businesses in Northern California, a lot of them have to be thinking hard about relocating partially, as this power problem could last decades and only get much worse.
Can't people also sue the local governments for allowing development in fire prone areas?

I know in LA, experts, scientists and environmentalists are telling local governments not to approve or severely restrict development at urban-rural interfaces but they just get ignored. There has to be culpability here somewhere.

The most recent one is Tejon Pass where the LA county board of supervisors just approved 20,000 new homes for 60,000 people in the middle of fire country.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
The problem (that no one wants to admit) is California never should have built these towns and structures in a environment in which fires are a natural part.

No on wants to admit that the increasing severity is the natural end point of 50 years of fighting forest fires, more so than climate change.



20 years ago you could take down any one of the three electrical grids with a radio, admin, password. (SCADA)
Yup. Pg& e ain't no angle but they are the easier target right now .
 
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