Anyone else agree that Total War has gone downhill since Rome Total War 1?

[Patapuf]

People are praising Warhammer 2 a lot. It has really good presentation but there are things that make the game feel simple. Everyone knows about siege battles but they removed a lot of campaign map features too. The best reason to play the battles is to watch the cool unit animations go at it and look at the detailed models because the AI still can't provide an interesting challenge.

It's not bad but it's not the high point in the series in every regard. If you were a fan of some things in historical Total War you aren't going to get that itch scratched playing Warhammer 2.

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That's true but CA is still putting out historical titles. Three kingdoms has a very elaborate campaign map with intricate diplomacy options, lots of agents with their own personality an goals and a huge building and tech tree.. etc.

Their other recent standalone historical titles/expansions had some of those improvements too.


I feel like a lot of the complaints are basically the setting more than the modern games being bad (which is fair, setting is an important part of this series). Because most of the complaints i've seen have been implemented in recent titles.


Also, while the AI is still exploitable, you can't just rearcharge heavy cavalry to win battles anymore on higher difficulties.

 

[Glio]

Total War Warhammer 2 is one of the best strategy games of all time so no, I don't agree.

 

[squall23]

I loved Three Kingdoms.

10/10 would send Zhao Yun by himself to destroy 6 units again.

 

[CobaltBlu]

That's true but CA is still putting out historical titles. Three kingdoms has a very elaborate campaign map with intricate diplomacy options, lots of agents with their own personality an goals and a huge building and tech tree.. etc.

Their other recent standalone historical titles/expansions had some of those improvements too.


I feel like a lot of the complaints are basically the setting more than the modern games being bad. Because most of the complaints i've seen have been implemented in recent titles.


Also, while the AI is still exploitable, you can't just rearcharge heavy cavalry to win battles anymore on higher difficulties.

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Three Kingdoms went down the route of heroes with abilities though. Send Lu Bu in to kill hundreds. I know you can play a historical mode but it's telling where their design focus went.

 

[AuthenticM]

I have no idea. My only question is why wasn't Total War: Warhammer titled "Total Warhammer"? IT WAS RIGHT THERE!

 

[Patapuf]

Three Kingdoms went down the route of heroes with abilities though. Send Lu Bu in to kill hundreds. I know you can play a historical mode but it's telling where their design focus went.

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I actually don't think the historical mode is compromised. You just have a classic general with bodyguards instead of the exagerated single unit (who also started to annoy me after awhile, despite loving warhammer II).

where three kingdoms shines is on the campaign map anyway and that's very good regardless of the mode.

I also think that abilities on units is a good thing. Not necessarily magic stuff, just things a unit can do beyond walking and stabbing. Even Medieval 2 had some of that (like fire arrows).

 

[TheBaldwin]

Rome 2 had a ton of problems and complaints yes, but warhammer 2 and Three Kingdoms are the best the series has been.

I adore Three Kingdoms and Can't wait for more updates and DLC

 

[Aureon]

Yes, until Warhammer II.

 

[RazzMahTazz1319]

Nah, Warhammer 2 is in an ok place gameplay wise. They minimized campaign & presentation depth for diversity. This is fine. That is a sound strategic decision given limited resources. And for them it looks like it worked out. They're not stoping from creating historical games and I always hear how great Three Kingdoms diplomacy system is, so maybe jump into that when it goes on sale.

Anecdotally, I would just skip the campaign in earlier games just to get to the juicy battles by spamming buildings or not even bothering with diplomacy. So maybe I am the target market. The unique faction mechanics maybe be gimmicks but I am engaged unlike the previous games. Those gimmicky campaigns are in a sweet spot of time spent before going to the next one.

Presentation and gameplay wise, yes there could be better things. But I believe most of it is due to engine limitations. The thing is 5 years old, If the first complaints on reddit are indicative of its origins. I mean yes I would like better individual collisions and animations(Soldiers dont look like they are fighting each other. only boxes vs boxes.) but I would bet that those are trade offs for increasing the unit numbers and graphical quality and diversity of individual units, probably mostly unit numbers. I mean who wouldnt want the exciting developments in processing power, texture, lighting, and AI, animation quality(procedural animation like they use in Ass Creed) to be included in the next game and affect gameplay?

 

[Faabulous]

As a software engineer these engine complaints always get me.

Guys, it's definitely not the same engine. It might have the same foundation, but software evolves pretty much constantly. In these last 10 years they probably re-wrote the entire thing 5 times over, and honestly starting from scratch (new engine, as some might suggest) has no gurantees that they would be able to achieve now what they couldn't before. It's dumb criticism. If you think unit collision is wonky, criticize unit collision, don't talk about stuff you have no way of knowing anything about

 

[King Dodongo]

From the ones I played, I think Shogun 2 is the best among them.

 

[Glio]

Nah, Warhammer 2 is in an ok place gameplay wise. They minimized campaign & presentation depth for diversity. This is fine. That is a sound strategic decision given limited resources. And for them it looks like it worked out. They're not stoping from creating historical games and I always hear how great Three Kingdoms diplomacy system is, so maybe jump into that when it goes on sale.

Anecdotally, I would just skip the campaign in earlier games just to get to the juicy battles by spamming buildings or not even bothering with diplomacy. So maybe I am the target market. The unique faction mechanics maybe be gimmicks but I am engaged unlike the previous games. Those gimmicky campaigns are in a sweet spot of time spent before going to the next one.

Presentation and gameplay wise, yes there could be better things. But I believe most of it is due to engine limitations. The thing is 5 years old, If the first complaints on reddit are indicative of its origins. I mean yes I would like better individual collisions and animations(Soldiers dont look like they are fighting each other. only boxes vs boxes.) but I would bet that those are trade offs for increasing the unit numbers and graphical quality and diversity of individual units, probably mostly unit numbers. I mean who wouldnt want the exciting developments in processing power, texture, lighting, and AI, animation quality(procedural animation like they use in Ass Creed) to be included in the next game and affect gameplay?

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5 years it's no that old for an engine....

 

[medyej]

No way, Rome was an amazing game but since then we've gotten Shogun 2 (possibly the best), Warhammer which took the series to insane new heights and audience, and Three Kingdoms which is great.

Rome 2 was a real disaster though.

 

[RazzMahTazz1319]

As a software engineer these engine complaints always get me.

Guys, it's definitely not the same engine. It might have the same foundation, but software evolves pretty much constantly. In these last 10 years they probably re-wrote the entire thing 5 times over, and honestly starting from scratch (new engine, as some might suggest) has no gurantees that they would be able to achieve now what they couldn't before. It's dumb criticism. If you think unit collision is wonky, criticize unit collision, don't talk about stuff you have no way of knowing anything about

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Apologies, I mostly am aware of web development but wouldn't technical debt, foundational features or legacy code be problems with engine development? Most of our developers don't like building from existing pages and apps due to the above. Otherwise I guess it was a high level design decision on their side to forego unit collisions for something else that takes up processing power.

5 years it's no that old for an engine....

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Ah good point. This was mostly based on a quick google search. Rome 2 was released in 2013 so thats 7 years I guess.

 

[Glio]

Apologies, I mostly am aware of web development but wouldn't technical debt, foundational features or legacy code be problems with engine development? Most of our developers don't like building from existing pages and apps due to the above. Otherwise I guess it was a high level design decision on their side to forego unit collisions for something else that takes up processing power.



Ah good point. This was mostly based on a quick google search. Rome 2 was released in 2013 so thats 7 years I guess.

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Still not old. Unreal Engine 4 is 6 years old.

 

[McNum]

The pre-battle speeches could be epic, if only for some of the rarer lines appearing at times. I had a very memorable battle in Rome just for the pre-battle speech.

An old general was tasked with governing a town on the edge of my territory. He had in the town two groups of archers, and two groups of basic sword and shield troops. Suddenly, out of the fog of war, comes an enemy army, with cavalry and siege engines and all the good stuff for taking a town. However, said general had max stars in Command and Defense.

So, I prepare myself for an unwinnable fight, because, well, four groups of basic infantry against THAT? And then the old general steps out on the wall to give his speech, which I will now quote in its entirety.

"I have never lost a defensive fight, and I will not start today."

Battle start.

He won. The walls held, but the enemy cavalry was out of archer range. However, in a siege the defender wins in case of time out, and so he did.

 

[Mudcrab]

HELL NO

Medieval II, Empire, Shogun 2, Three Kingdoms are all amazing.

But the Total Warhammer series is a masterpiece achievement beyond them.

 

[Rygar 8Bit]

Warhammer 2 is the best of the Total War games, and one of the best RTS ever made.

 

[BossAttack]

the streamlining (or abstraction) of diplomacy and trade is real, but in warhammer? i don't miss it really
imagine having to juggle diplomats and merchants in addition to the shitton of agents that are already in, nah
the speech before battles are in it for quest battles, mostly for lore i guess

wanna know what i miss? having armies not headed by a general where the sergeant can rise through the ranks after winning a battle

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I miss this so much. Why must I recruit a Lord or General everytime I want to muster some troops? Older titles tied units to buildings and Lords/Generals were a prized commodity as they could actually die. But, it also meant that a lower level Captain could rise to the rank of General if you kept winning battles with them.

I do like the skill trees with your unique Lords, but I'd still prefer simply tying units back to buildings and making Generals harder to get. Also, not sure how Three Kingdoms handles things but I do miss having actual rulers with lifespans. This made certain eras in Rome great as you'd have some amazing Emperor where you fucking built roads all across the land and conquered Constantinople whom dies of old age at 88. Then you get his shit tier heir whose a drunk and have to just deal with it. Always liked that aspect and family trees in general.

 

[Mudcrab]

Warhammer 2 is the best of the Total War games, and one of the best RTS ever made.

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[A New Beginning]

5 years it's no that old for an engine....

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I actually think it's still the modified engine from Empire which is 11 years old already. And the new Cod proved that even the biggest changes and modifications won't change the fundamental issues like the lack of advanced physics, destruction etc.

 

[Glio]

I actually think it's still the modified engine from Empire which is 11 years old already. And the new Cod proved that even the biggest changes and modifications won't change the fundamental issues like the lack of advanced physics, destruction etc.

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Mortal Kombat 11 is in Unreal Engine 3, a 14 years old engine. People in internet care too much about engines without really understand them.

 

[BossAttack]

Also, I'm around turn 92 in this Vortex campaign as High Elves, how do people feel about this Vortex campaign? I'm so far into it I feel I should finish, but I already want to go back to a regular campaign because the Vortex is so boring. The Vortex, as Elves, is right around this tiny ring island and basically incentivizes staying on this one island. Why would I venture out when everytime you start a Ritual, three Chaos hordes spawn on the island near your ritual sites? Makes for some boring campaign.

 

[Deleted member 29682]

Also, I'm around turn 92 in this Vortex campaign as High Elves, how do people feel about this Vortex campaign? I so far into it I feel I should finish, but I already want to go back to a regular campaign because the Vortex is so boring. The Vortex, as Elves, is right around this tiny ring island and basically incentives staying on this one island. Why would I venture out when everytime you start a Ritual, three Chaos hordes spawn on the island near your ritual sites? Makes for some boring campaign.

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Vortex as any of the base-game factions is pretty dull. Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast and many of the new lords (both paid and free) have their own campaign objectives which are less annoying and encourage you to go further afield.

If you still want to play as High Elves, Alith Anar and Teclis start away from Ulthuan, Imrik (free) has his own campaign objectives and so does Eltharion (DLC).

 

[Shelbyville Milhouse]

Total Warhammer 2 is the best one though

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Three kingdoms is the best

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Shogun 2 is probably one of my favorite games. *shrug*

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I think this answers OP's question lol

 

[Anno]

Warhammer and 3K are my favorite TW titles ever, so I guess I don't agree.

 

[Dictator]

Total Warhammer and 2 are probably the best total war game ever. So no, I do not agree.

 

[Shelbyville Milhouse]

I will say that no TW game I've played has topped Rome's "burning pigs" units, so there's that.
I give Warhammer 1 and 2, Empire and Shogun 0 Burning Pigs out of 10

 

[phaze]

I'm totally way behind the times so this has little bearing on the current state of the franchise but I've got the Shogun freebie on Steam and I've to say, I don't think this series progresses at all with the passage of time, it just jumps into a set of new clothes to disguise itself. The diplomacy is still nonsense, a country can be at war with two others and still will decide to jump at you, the economy is still very shallow and yet annoying to deal with as it requires micromanaging every province if you don't want to just absolve all authority to AI and they've failed to do anything interesting with the battles and particularly sieges.

 

[Brandino]

I put 250 hours into Shogun 2 and Fall of the Samurai.

The other entries since than haven't really captured me. I need to give three kingdoms another shot though

 

[medyej]

If people don't know noclip put out a documentary series on Creative Assembly and Total War last week:

 

[Faabulous]

Apologies, I mostly am aware of web development but wouldn't technical debt, foundational features or legacy code be problems with engine development? Most of our developers don't like building from existing pages and apps due to the above. Otherwise I guess it was a high level design decision on their side to forego unit collisions for something else that takes up processing power.

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I mean, sure?
No gurantees that re-writing it into something just as complex would solve anything tho, and if CA has good engineers (I mean they probabbly do, it's a successful company that hire professionals and this is their 3rd engine iteration, I think) they are probabbly better off slowly refactoring and improving it while covering it with unit tests until its something stable and workable so that you can build a solid foundation for more improvements, and honestly this is probabbly what they have done/are doing.

At the end of the day, if it was un-workable (it isn't, most complaints from the videos in the OP are outdated as fuck) I trust CA engineers would have moved on by now?

And I mean, your web dev exp should corrobarate this, since when did a full rewrite really improve things? Sometimes its necessary for some specific reasons, but you usually just end up with a newer mess lol

 

[Elfgore]

Uh, nah. I played a lot of Rome 1 and Medieval II... I've played way more Shogun 2 and Warhammer. The stuff they changed in my mind is so insignificant or minor, I don't see the point in keeping it. Strategic variety is nice, but the removal of aspect won't ruin a game.

Three Kingdoms went down the route of heroes with abilities though. Send Lu Bu in to kill hundreds. I know you can play a historical mode but it's telling where their design focus went.

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I'd expect this to never go away at this point. Especially now with the new Saga game being Troy as well. I don't mind it, but I can see frustration from those who enjoy a strong historical focus.

 

[Fawz]

The series has gotten infinetly better on so many fronts since their early days. They've diversified more and acomplished great things. They have put out more content, and as such some of that hasn't always been the greatest (At launch like Rome2 or overall like Bretonnia). Some of the games have had some aspects be weaker than past titles, namely Diplomacy, Naval Battles and Sieges continues to be a weak point for the series.

But overall I think their games are better, their offerings more interesting and their potential better than it's ever been. I still think they could do more to break the mold, I feel like Shogun 2 was the entry where they did the most cool things that we haven't seen as much of in their next games.

In the end though Mods make their already great games excellent, so I'm more than happy

 

[CenturionNami]

I'm pretty sure Pixellated Apollo used to cover Third Age quite extensively. I know cause i watch him for close to 2 years. Now he's pretty much a Bannerlord youtuber though.

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That's not true at all. Other than the outdated graphics and the sometimes lacking AI (which is a problem in every installement) the mechanics are completely intact, easy to read and not archaic in any way. Its still the most popular entry among youtubers who make Total War battle videos due to It's amazing and cinematic mods such as Third Age and my cousin who is a complete newbie to the series still prefers to play Stainless Steel with me rather than the new installements. The only "problem" they may have is the smaller scale and amount of content but this is easily fixed with mods that add insane amounts of new content.

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TWW2 channels are far more popular then Med 2 at this point.

I went over this in the OP. The campaign map is detailed but everything else is lacking. There are barely any movies that accompany actions on the campaign map.

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That's your only argument? Okay. It's a very bad one. It's lacking nothing in terms of presentation. YOU KEEP SAYING IT'S LACKING in some regard, but you aren't saying anything but simple nitpicks. Which means you are blinded by nolstagia and this thread has been a lowkey backfire.

People are praising Warhammer 2 a lot. It has really good presentation but there are things that make the game feel simple. Everyone knows about siege battles but they removed a lot of campaign map features too. The best reason to play the battles is to watch the cool unit animations go at it and look at the detailed models because the AI still can't provide an interesting challenge.

It's not bad but it's not the high point in the series in every regard. If you were a fan of some things in historical Total War you aren't going to get that itch scratched playing Warhammer 2.

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Because alot of the history fanbase are incels. It's the history fanbase that's been attacking the inclusion of female characters into the series.

 

[Patapuf]

Also, I'm around turn 92 in this Vortex campaign as High Elves, how do people feel about this Vortex campaign? I'm so far into it I feel I should finish, but I already want to go back to a regular campaign because the Vortex is so boring. The Vortex, as Elves, is right around this tiny ring island and basically incentivizes staying on this one island. Why would I venture out when everytime you start a Ritual, three Chaos hordes spawn on the island near your ritual sites? Makes for some boring campaign.

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People are mixed on the vortex. Nowadays Mortal Empires is way more popular.

HE are by far the easiest faction to win as though. At least the lords that start on Ulthuan. Tecles, Alitha anar, Imrik etc. can be tougher.

There's generally an "easy" start for each faction. I wouldn't recommend them to a more exprienced player.

 

[Deleted member 29682]

I'd expect this to never go away at this point. Especially now with the new Saga game being Troy as well. I don't mind it, but I can see frustration from those who enjoy a strong historical focus.

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I'm inclined to think that it's something that will be setting dependent. Troy and ROTK are effectively stories with larger-than-life legendary figures, so that approach works. This is something they explicitly talk about in the Noclip documentary. Whether or not this influences what settings they pick, who's to say.

 

[Simuly]

nah

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Why would you reply like that? If you don't agree with them explain why.

OP the factions are not trading with you because after 17 hours you dont yet have enough settlements with mercantile items (you'll see the building to make these in the right settlements) to make trade with you attractive, it's 50% having good realations 50% having resources to trade.

 

[Zedelima]

No , i do not agree
Shogun 2, Warhammer 1/2 and three kingdoms are the best the series have

 

[shoemasta]

Nah not at all. Shogun 2, Warhammer 1 + 2 and Three Kingdoms are the best the series has been.

I'd expect this to never go away at this point. Especially now with the new Saga game being Troy as well. I don't mind it, but I can see frustration from those who enjoy a strong historical focus.

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Thrones of Britannia is rooted in history. Don't think that CA is abandoning the historical now.

 

[Double 0]

When it comes to historical Total War, you can say it peakon Medieval 2 or Shogun 2, but 3k is also really good and cinematic.

But IMO, Warhammer 2 is the new standard for the franchise.

But to say Rome 1 is peak is nostalgia.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

I feel like the real time battle mechanics have gotten a lot better and the overworld tactical elements have not matched the pace.

 

[Elfgore]

I'm inclined to think that it's something that will be setting dependent. Troy and ROTK are effectively stories with larger-than-life legendary figures, so that approach works. This is something they explicitly talk about in the Noclip documentary. Whether or not this influences what settings they pick, who's to say.

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I personally can see the latter happening. Many parts of history have larger than life people who can act as legendary lords. Guess we'll so though. Thanks for mentioning the Noclip doc as well. May need to check that out at some point.

Nah not at all. Shogun 2, Warhammer 1 + 2 and Three Kingdoms are the best the series has been.


Thrones of Britannia is rooted in history. Don't think that CA is abandoning the historical now.

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It is, but with the last historical title, the next Saga title, and most likely next big entry being Warhammer III, we're looking at a lot of fantastical settings.

 

[Glio]

Wrong thread, sorry.

 

[Deleted member 18821]

No, and frankly I think the assersion is ridiculous. First and foremost, you're using Total War Warhammer as your basis for most of your campaign map arguements (ie, settlement admin, diplomacy, etc), yet those games are squarely intended to be battle map focused. Map management in the Warhammer games is closer to base building than standard Total War games. It's meant to reduce the time between battles, but still require you to build up to higher tier units/armies and earn your conquest.

Have you played any of the others besides Warhammer? Rome 2 for a long time was a mess, but it's fixed for even longer at this point and is in a very good state (performance woes still exist for me unfortunately). If you want a campaign map focus, any mainline Total War game handles it much better. I personally would highlight Attila, which features climate change, migrating hordes, growth culture and food management, and the horsemen of the apocolapse; and also Three Kingdoms, which has the best spying system to date, a much improved deplomacy system, and a focus on individual character narratives.

Also, I'm around turn 92 in this Vortex campaign as High Elves, how do people feel about this Vortex campaign? I'm so far into it I feel I should finish, but I already want to go back to a regular campaign because the Vortex is so boring. The Vortex, as Elves, is right around this tiny ring island and basically incentivizes staying on this one island. Why would I venture out when everytime you start a Ritual, three Chaos hordes spawn on the island near your ritual sites? Makes for some boring campaign.

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You're not alone with that feeling. I like the Vortex campaign (mostly), but feel free to go to Mortal Empires if it's not grabbing you. The Chaos/Skaven hordes are there to force you to consolidate, and checks you've been building up. In short, it's there to slow you down, but I think it was a sensible addition. I should also mention, there's a few lords added later (I think all DLC ones) that don't interact with the normal Vortex campaign, like the new Grom/Greenskins campaign, which focuses on fighting the High Elves.

 

[admiraltaftbar]

Shogun 2 is way better than Rome 1 and I've heard great things about Warhammer 2 and 3 kingdoms. In fact I think minus Rome 2, Empire and some of the weird offshoot stand alone expansions most total war games have been either a good spin on the formula or a good upgrade from previous games.

 

[Vault]

Empire and Napoleon are underrated

 

[Mudcrab]

I also don't understand using Warhammer as a critique of diplomacy when that is clearly not the point of this one particular game in the franchise. Like if you're looking for a diplomacy victory as the Orks that involves anything other than krumpin' everyone else you're obviously in for disappointment. Three Kingdoms is right there for that sort of play.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Op, have you played ANY TW in the past 10 years ?

Shogun 2 is god tier and loved by all.
Rome 2 was broken for a year after launch but now is fixed. Sure, the game is too big and long for its own good but its presentation, amibtions, art direction and content is top tier.
3 Kingdoms is fascinating to play and presentation is god tier.
Warhammer 1 & 2 are the crowning achievement of 4X / RTS games of the last 20 years ihmo. Insane content, variety, replayability, art... even for someone who has 0 background & knownledge of the lore

 

[Gparan]

I'm sorry but it's an hard no from me. There has been so many great total war games in recent time lite Shogun 2 with its amazing Fall of the Samurai DLC (The best line infantry game CA has made) , Total War Warhammer 1 and 2 and Three Kingdoms.

While I agree the the pure history games has stumbled a bit with Thrones of Britannia and Rome 2 at launch but I still feel like they turned Rome 2 around and while I wouldn't call it a masterpiece my playthrough of Armenia a few years after launch was fine. People also seems to like the spinoffs and dlc for the game which I bought but never tried.

I recently passed 500 hours in Warhammer 2 and I'm closing in on 600 right now thanks to the amazing dlc they keep putting out for the game and while I can admit that if the setting doesn't do anything for you it might not be for you but it's hard to believe when pretty much all the factions play differently and even within them you have Legendary lords that add really cool campaign specific goals and gameplay.