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Any in-depth examples of how a healthy and humane AAA studio operates??

g23

g23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
824
Jason's articles on Bioware and Treyarch's hell on earth development environments during crunch got me thinking.

Are there examples of AAA development studio operating humanely during crunch or during regular development in general? I know insomniac is known for being a positive place to work in, but generally all you hear about in the media is how shitty the work environments is (especially for QA) for these big AAA studios (netherrealm, Bioware, and now treyarch)

I know Bonnie Ross came out recently saying she wanted to avoid crunch as much as she can for Halo Infinite and that Nintendo is known for delaying release dates in order to avoid crunch, but I really want to know exactly HOW some of these development studios can expect to still achieve their annual release dates and still operate humanely during development.
 
Gay Bowser

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,659
The "crunch problem" is that studios see release dates and scope as fixed, and the workload of their employees as variable.

If you "want to know exactly HOW some of these development studios can expect to still achieve their annual release dates and still operate humanely during development," the answer would be reducing scope. Alternatively, they can keep scope and take longer.

Not everything has to be a photo-real cinematic extravaganza, but publishers are convinced that's what they have to make to sell. Crunch becomes sort of an arms race; if some other studio is crunching and you're not, the thinking goes, your game will be less impressive and its sales will suffer.

That's why game developers need unions, just like [lists basically every other highly-skilled creative profession] already have.
 
subpar spatula

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,084
I remember watching Chris Wilson talk about GGG (Path of Exile) and they basically say they just build stuff way in advance and then do some stuff within 3 months with already made assets and reuse. They found a good balance where crunch isn't really needed and something like that. AAA studios could theoretically be better, but they just got a lot of nepotism and bureaucracy it seems so things don't get properly attended to in a timely manner which causes a lot of crunch.
 
NippleViking

NippleViking

Member
May 2, 2018
4,481
Hope this thread eventuates into some stories. That Activision/Treyarch story made me sick to my stomach.

Just as companies should be criticised for horrid work environments, those with healthy cultures should receive kudos and acknowledgement (though this sort of treatment should be the norm).
 
Takuhi

Takuhi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,305
Here's an example I've heard Jason mention in the past, which he's promised to write about further...



Edit: Oh, whoops, I see you already mentioned Insomniac. Oh well, here's the receipts, I guess.
 
finalflame

finalflame

Product Management
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,538
CryptiK said:
Except all the ex employees saying how toxic it is with all the cliqs.
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People who aren't a good fit at Valve but somehow still get hired don't last long, and end up disgruntled. They're generally the only ones you'll hear from. As with anything else, those who had a great experience usually don't speak up.

But you can count me among the ex-Valve employees which found it anything but a toxic workplace; I had a fantastic tenure at Valve.
 
Cranster

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
Microsoft's recent investment in first party seems to be a step in the right direction. They are giving developers like 343 Industries more time and better tech to avoid crunch. Time will tell if it will pay off.
 
Kaiserstarky

Kaiserstarky

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,295
Apparently Guerrilla Games, it's a great place for work. From what i've heard the developpement of Horizon went pretty smooth on this point even if obviusly certain weeks was more rough than others but it's the case for most of the AAA nowadays.
 
OP
OP
g23

g23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
824
Baccus said:
Odyssey was repeatedly made without crunch, which is impressive for the longest sp game of the generation.
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I think part of that is because Ubisoft literally throws thousands of developers and dozens of studios at the AC franchise. Most publishers aren't willing to invest and spend the resources that Ubisoft is willing to do.
 
Lactose_Intolerant

Lactose_Intolerant

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,751
Arizona
subpar spatula said:
I remember watching Chris Wilson talk about GGG (Path of Exile) and they basically say they just build stuff way in advance and then do some stuff within 3 months with already made assets and reuse. They found a good balance where crunch isn't really needed and something like that. AAA studios could theoretically be better, but they just got a lot of nepotism and bureaucracy it seems so things don't get properly attended to in a timely manner which causes a lot of crunch.
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Their last 2 leagues have had serious problems. They are starting to slip behind on their 3 month schedule of producing a quality product. Every league now is a bug fest the first few weeks.
 
Sotha_Sil

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,058
Kaiserstarky said:
Apparently Guerrilla Games, it's a great place for work. From what i've heard the developpement of Horizon went pretty smooth on this point even if obviusly certain weeks was more rough than others but it's the case for most of the AAA nowadays.
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It helps when you have a publisher willing to budget six years of development time for a single game. Not many developers get that luxury.

Sony Bend, Sucker Punch, and Media Molecule are all getting similar deals with Days Gone, Ghost of Tsushima, and Dreams. It's admirable of Sony to commit to such large budgets, and it's clearly reflected in the polish of the products.
 
subpar spatula

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
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Oct 26, 2017
22,084
Lactose_Intolerant said:
Their last 2 leagues have had serious problems. They are starting to slip behind on their 3 month schedule of producing a quality product. Every league now is a bug fest the first few weeks.
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That's OK, though. No league or content will ever be perfect. They have been upfront about this and admit things don't actually pan out with their players. That's all OK. You shouldn't expect 100% the best content ever from developers as some can actually flop. GGG is good in this regard because they actually understand what it means to communicate their failures and what they've learned. They've learned a lot too. Compare it to Blizzard who will not say content is bad until way into the next expansion.

When players start whining about bugs and all this shit, it just screams entitlement to me. There's no way you can solve all these issues without some serious luck or crunch time. I am playing Path of Exile and these bugs do not bother me as I am not so invested that I experience them 100x a day. They also fix them as soon as they can, but considering they don't do a shit ton of crunch, it can take a week or 2, which is absolutely fine if you care about how a studio handles their employees.
 
skeezx

skeezx

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Oct 27, 2017
20,131
RoninChaos said:
I don't hear a lot of complaints about UBISOFT and crunch.
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was going to say, curious as to how their studios feel. like asscreed origins/odyssey releasing within a year is mindblowing to me even if it is spread across a thousand employees. i would think just one of those games would accrue a ton of horror stories from any other place
 

Deleted member 11976

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Oct 27, 2017
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skeezx said:
was going to say, curious as to how their studios feel. like asscreed origins/odyssey releasing within a year is mindblowing to me even if it is spread across a thousand employees. i would think just one of those games would accrue a ton of horror stories from any other place
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Origins was lead by Montreal, whereas Odyssey was headed up by Quebec.
 

Deleted member 6235

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,447
Playground (Forza Horizon) seems to have a pretty strong culture against crunch - also, Rare, from what i've read, Rare didn't have it during Sea of Thieves, too, but i'm not sure on that one.
 
Terbinator

Terbinator

Member
Oct 29, 2017
10,217
These threads always seem pointless if we're not highlighting the difference between employment laws, employee/worker status etc between countries.
finalflame said:
Valve is a pretty fantastic place to work. I'd recommend reading their Handbook for New Employees to learn more about how they operate.
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And it probably is, but their income is all but guaranteed at this point from crunching teams outside of their business. And those teams actually generates revenue for them.
 
Zukkoyaki

Zukkoyaki

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Oct 25, 2017
11,261
Ubisoft seems to largely avoid crunch. But that could very well be because their developer workforce is HUGE.
 
Surface of Me

Surface of Me

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Oct 25, 2017
3,207
Granjinha said:
Playground (Forza Horizon) seems to have a pretty strong culture against crunch - also, Rare, from what i've read, Rare didn't have it during Sea of Thieves, too, but i'm not sure on that one.
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Pretty impressive on Playground's part as they have been pumping out fantastic titles every two years for a while now.
 
Cincaid

Cincaid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
687
Sweden
I live in the town next to Ubisoft Massive's headquarters, and I've always heard positive things about that place regarding work/life-balance. The downside is that their salaries are considered very low in comparison, so most people (including myself) choose another similar line of work.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,065
g23 said:
Are there examples of AAA development studio operating humanely during crunch or during regular development in general?
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There are days I doubt the concept of a "healthy and humane AAA studio" even existing, although maybe a better term is exceptions that prove the rule.
The amount of care for 'humans' on the project tends to be inversely proportional to the budget and scale of the project and/or value of the IP involved and the barrier for 'AAA' has escalated by at least 10x in this decade. There's regional bias as well, with org-cultures from certain countries usually being worse than others.

Zukkoyaki said:
Ubisoft seems to largely avoid crunch. But that could very well be because their developer workforce is HUGE.
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When AC was a yearly franchise crunch was common place in a lot of Ubi, and not just in AC.
On the flipside - they do tend to take 7-8 years on anything that isn't an annualized IP, so that probably helps mitigate things.
 
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