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EndlessNever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,890
I hate the idea that MM for raids doesnt work.

When I played Destiny, my friend and I harrased random players in the tower until we found enough people that also wanted to do the raid, then we did the raid. They aren't all that complex that people can't learn to work with each other over the course of it.

We manually did everything that a Matchmaking system would do automatically. It was asinine, took forever for no reason.

With matchmaking, you might end up with an ineffective party member. With a decent party system, you just separate from that member and search again, it's no big deal.
Think about Last Wish but with matchmaking, with those same folk that can't even play gambit effectively. It sounds like an absolute nightmare already. And when people start getting hardly any completions from raid matchmaking, you can bet your are they'll complain about the difficulty.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,219
With matchmaking, you might end up with an ineffective party member. With a decent party system, you just separate from that member and search again, it's no big deal.
What happens when you're three hours in and just about halfway and someone gets frustrated and quits out? Do you match-make people in halfway through a raid, if so what about those going in wanting to experience the whole thing from start to finish? Checkpointing could work but would populations for each part allow for a quick replacement?

Genuine questions as it's really not as simple a solution as people make it seem. Putting LFG in the game would work but adding standard matchmaking to raids would make for a potentially terrible/impossible experience presented as a choice for a game mode.
 

Gibordep

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,282
Destiny Raids are almost impossible without communicating but the MM should be available, people would make some random friends and would reach a stable group to make the Raid. People that are against MM as a group to play it, I don't understand why the inclusion of more options harms them..
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,219
Destiny Raids are almost impossible without communicating but the MM should be available, people would make some random friends and would reach a stable group to make the Raid. People that are against MM as a group to play it, I don't understand why the inclusion of more options harms them..
The example you present is a niche case and a fraction of those that would interact with the option.

If something is presented as a standard option for a game mode then it's reasonable that you expect it to provide an enjoyable and completely viable way to complete that mode. For standard matchmaking, for the average player who's just playing and sees the bit of content and clicks to play it, it should be a positive experience. Putting basic matchmaking in a raid like Last Wish just couldn't guarantee that, from issues with people dropping out on hour 3, to guaranteeing mics, knowledge of mechanics and the like.

An LFG system for sure could go there with some thought, but standard matchmaking bolted on would be terrible.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Destiny Raids are almost impossible without communicating but the MM should be available, people would make some random friends and would reach a stable group to make the Raid. People that are against MM as a group to play it, I don't understand why the inclusion of more options harms them..

Yep. MMOs like FFXIV have both and people use both. If you don't want to deal with possible shitty randos in matchmaking, then don't use the matchmaking.

The question becomes whether BioWare will structure raid difficulty with pre-made parties as the baseline or matchmaking. I think that's the concern.

Edit: Just remembered that new raid content in FFXIV doesn't have matchmaking.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,363
Think about Last Wish but with matchmaking, with those same folk that can't even play gambit effectively. It sounds like an absolute nightmare already. And when people start getting hardly any completions from raid matchmaking, you can bet your are they'll complain about the difficulty.

Why does it matter? If you want to LFG you can, regardless of whether or not matchmaking exists. People hardly get completions from Raids now, because the extraordinary hoops players have to jump through to even get one started. What difference does it make if completions are low due to ineffective parties?

You can also let people at their own matchmaking parameters. If you don't care who you play with, you open your search. If your picky and don't mind a longer wait, you limit your search to people with similar ranks, or who have completed raids that you have.

Also, let's not pretend the LFG eliminates possibility of getting shitty teammates.

What happens when you're three hours in and just about halfway and someone gets frustrated and quits out? Do you match-make people in halfway through a raid, if so what about those going in wanting to experience the whole thing from start to finish? Checkpointing could work but would populations for each part allow for a quick replacement?

Genuine questions as it's really not as simple a solution as people make it seem. Putting LFG in the game would work but adding standard matchmaking to raids would make for a potentially terrible/impossible experience presented as a choice for a game mode.

Not being able to participate in Raids because you don't have the time to coordinate via LFG nor the online friends to play with is a makes for a terrible/impossible experience presented as a choice.

You know what has been historically a great way to make online friends with similar interests and experience? Matchmaking!

As I said before, the existence of Matchmaking doesn't prevent you from using LFG. And LFG doesn't prevent someone from leaving unexpectedly.
 
Last edited:

deafmedal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
546
I can only assume that anyone who thinks Anthem can't have any depth or challenge without going the route of convoluted Destiny puzzles have never played Mass Effect multiplayer.

I haven't played Anthem. Maybe they'll fuck it up somehow. But their track record in this area is stellar.
I agree, and fail to understand why there has to be "raids". Not that I will complain if there is a raid analogy in Anthem but it shouldn't devalue the game if not. The incursions in The Division were pretty lame imo, nice that they were there for folks who liked 'em and having MM was great (horrible in practice from my experience) but not a major draw like Destiny's raids. I'd argue that nothing would have been lost if incursions didn't exist and I still would of enjoyed the game as most of my time was spent running loops in the DZ.

ME MP platinum had MM, I dreaded using it but appreciated it was there. To say platinum was easy is a bit dishonest- there will always be folks who are just flat out good at whatever game and trivialize content. There will be builds that groups can use together that will make the hardest content feel like easy mode. I would gather that most regular players have a difficult time with stuff like platinum or hard mode raids, if I remember correctly completion rates for ME3's platinum and Destiny's raids were fairly low. Hell, I was regularly completing sub 12 min times on plat in ME3 and even ran VoG on hard flawless in year 1 but that doesn't mean the content isn't challenging. Not every one is slayerage...

Raids in Destiny absolutely should have MM. I probably wouldn't use it then again I also wish Bungie would have continued with the way you opened up VoG, made a couple of friends that way when we couldn't find a sixth, it was kinda cool that a rando could pop up and help open the gate.
 

shinobi602

Verified
Oct 24, 2017
8,357
That nails it down that there will not be any serious type of team strategy to be had in activities and the likes, in terms of puzzles and stuff.

And if there is raids as complicated and challenging as Destiny, then I hope people enjoy the reality of it. It'll hit you hard, and prove MM for raids will not work unless it's dumb downed to fuck.
don´t know if this will be good...when you can play even the hardest content with matchmaking it means there are no real tactics required and even the higher tier content can be done relatively painless
Strange way to look at it. They can still be challenging and require strategy, while offering you the option to matchmake. If matchmaking with randoms proves too difficult to succeed, then just form a group with friends. I'm not sure I see a problem?
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,464
People who say that there can't be any type of "serious strategy" with matchmaking have played any of the FFXIV late raids?

People can coordinate if they want to. And if they, for some reason, can't, you quit the raid, make a party with your friends who surely are the true pros *puts on sunglasses* and rock that on.
 

SirMossyBloke

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,855
Strange way to look at it. They can still be challenging and require strategy, while offering you the option to matchmake. If matchmaking with randoms proves too difficult to succeed, then just form a group with friends. I'm not sure I see a problem?

Its because there isnt a problem, other than people not liking when Bungie gets criticized.
 

Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,691
The whole "Destiny raids are impossibly complex for a match made group" argument has always seemed extremely bizarre to me.

1. Games with far more complex raids implement some form of matchmaking.
2. The implication that *never seeing the content* is somehow preferable to seeing it with varying degrees of success or completion is suspect.
3. The difficulty of raids (disclaimer: haven't ever been a hardcore PvE player, but I had about 150 Raid clears in D1 and about 10 in D2) is grossly overestimated when people touch this subject.

Anybody who feels the current system of no matchmaking is OK is just blinded to how small our bubble of Internet forums and Discord servers is. The vast majority of players just pop a game in and don't expect to have to set up online play dates with strangers on a message board or something.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Strange way to look at it. They can still be challenging and require strategy, while offering you the option to matchmake. If matchmaking with randoms proves too difficult to succeed, then just form a group with friends. I'm not sure I see a problem?

I think the concern is that the difficulty will be balanced using matchmaking as a baseline, instead of pre-made parties using extensive voice chat communication.
 

The_Land

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,390
Cleveland Ohio
Think about Last Wish but with matchmaking, with those same folk that can't even play gambit effectively. It sounds like an absolute nightmare already. And when people start getting hardly any completions from raid matchmaking, you can bet your are they'll complain about the difficulty.
Not only Last Wish, but every raid since the VoG. Matchmaking in Destiny raids would be nothing but a train wreck. Seems like the only people that get this are the people that actually play the game. Matchmaking across all modes in Anthem deflates hype from me because now I expect cookie cutter simple Raids. Making a boss more bullet spongier a la The Division is not what I consider complex end game mechanics
 

Algorum

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Dec 23, 2018
580
Bioware is aware they can't fail with Anthem.

Looking forward to be surprised by this game... lots to prove but I think they have a good team behind it.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Creating content around matchmaking is not good.

Matchmaking should serve as people getting a taste. I'm for that, but don't balance it around a bunch of strangers thrown in a room with zero commitment to finish or communicate
 

Kaiken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,182
People still being cry babies about no match making in Destiny raids? As someone who does destiny raids all the time no matchmaking is the smartest thing bungie ever did. A raid with randoms would be a fucking disaster. I guess Anthem will have zero depth if that's the case
How does allowing matchmaking effect you personally though? Yeah, grab your friends and do a Raid with no problem. This is a barrier opened up for people that would like to be matched up with randoms and perhaps create closer bonds with such people. I seriously don't get the hate for this. I've done plenty of Raids with randoms off Gaf, Era and Fireteam websites. We managed every time.
 

BMW

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
Destiny Raids are almost impossible without communicating but the MM should be available, people would make some random friends and would reach a stable group to make the Raid. People that are against MM as a group to play it, I don't understand why the inclusion of more options harms them..

The average Destiny player can barely figure out how to throw a "ball." Matchmaking in raids would be a clusterfuck - just look at randoms failing matchmade forges.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,628
in before, you can't do matchmaking in raids like in Destiny because reasons
Don't you know, completing a raid take super genius abilities...and there is no way to getting the info to do it outside of teaming up with experienced players via Discord or having some equivalent of someone walking you through every step via microphone!

Also...adding matchmaking somehow hurts people that don't want matchmaking because every game ever with matchmaking has catered the game solely towards people that wants matchmaking which means all matchmaking content ever is dumbed down and simplistic.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,628
Nightfalls and the dungeon are the only parts of Destiny without MM.

Not to rehash this discussion again, no, Raids would not work with matchmaking.

This is not true, only PvP, Gambit and Strikes have MM. There is no matchmaking for any other content including any activities on the planet, adventures, the story campaign, etc.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,564
If they design the raid type content without any thought to how pug friendly it is, I agree. If they actively design around the fact that it will be content that have matchmaking, then it's gonna impact the content in a hugely negative way
There's certainly that concern but there are other games that offer matchmaking for their endgame difficult content and it's not an issue. It should be more about just offering the option for anybody to bang their head against the content and hopefully that's what Bioware sees it as.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
They're going full Warframe.

This is a great choice--it is what made Warframe work, especially early on.
 

SneakersSO

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,353
North America
Why is there so much Destiny talk in here? As of yet, there hasn't been anything that approaches the depth or complexity of a Destiny raid in Anthem, and all of their talk of endgame is more in-line with Diablo 3 than Destiny, which is perfect for matchmaking scenarios. Ya'll celebrating this as if Anthem has Destiny-style raids when they don't as of yet, and all the activities Anthem does have Destiny has equivalences that does have matchmaking.
 

Trickster

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,533
The whole "Destiny raids are impossibly complex for a match made group" argument has always seemed extremely bizarre to me.

1. Games with far more complex raids implement some form of matchmaking.
2. The implication that *never seeing the content* is somehow preferable to seeing it with varying degrees of success or completion is suspect.
3. The difficulty of raids (disclaimer: haven't ever been a hardcore PvE player, but I had about 150 Raid clears in D1 and about 10 in D2) is grossly overestimated when people touch this subject.

Anybody who feels the current system of no matchmaking is OK is just blinded to how small our bubble of Internet forums and Discord servers is. The vast majority of players just pop a game in and don't expect to have to set up online play dates with strangers on a message board or something.

Just wanna tackle some of your points
  1. What games are these? My only experience with raid matchmaking comes from WoW, and in that game they made an entirely separate difficulty mode for raid matchmaking, which was insanely dumbed down. And while I think that version of the raids are always super boring due to of how dumbed down they are, I definitely understand why they do so. As someone else said at the top of this page, imagine the braindead people you get matchmade with in Gambit in the Last Wish raid...Like how are you ever gonna kill anything with those people in a non-neutered version of Last Wish?
  2. As you say it there, I agree. However this doesn't take into consideration how awful a player experience it would be to have a matchmaking option for something where most groups would probably never get past the first boss. Like, how do you think organizing who stand's where and who goes into which door on the first boss in Last Wish goes in random matchmade pug, where most likely almost no one is gonna be using a mic? How do you get 3 people to jump on the platforms and shoot beams at each other consistently, or 4 people to solve the puzzle rooms in Boss 2? You get my point I hope
  3. Raids can become pretty easy to boost people through as you start to overgear it, that I would not dispute in any way. However there's a giant difference between some overgeared and coordinated people boosting some scrubs through a raid, and a group of complete randoms getting thrown into a raid. Gambit in Destiny proves how bad randoms in that game are at even a very simple mode. And doing lfr in WoW is always a hilarious experience whenever you see like 10 people instadie to the most telegraphed and easily avoided things more than a year after that raid first came out.
There's certainly that concern but there are other games that offer matchmaking for their endgame difficult content and it's not an issue. It should be more about just offering the option for anybody to bang their head against the content and hopefully that's what Bioware sees it as.

Which games actually offers matchmaking for their pinnacle pve activities? I know of lfr in WoW, but that mode is basically a mode so stripped down that you can basically ignore all abilities the fight normally revolves around and literally just mash your head on the keyboard.
 

Speedlynx

Member
Nov 22, 2017
827
BioWare raid design though. How was this in SWTOR again?
"Go press the switch." "Defeat waves of enemies and a boss."
"Go press the switch."
Bungie raid design though.
"Steps on plate"
"Enemies spawn or boss becomes vulnerable"
"Steps on plate"

I for one think Destiny raids should've had matchmaking from the beginning. And if it turned out to be a poor experience sometimes oh well. It was better than being locked out of content because 4-6 of your friends didn't have agreeable schedules.
 

Liquidsnake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,986
Wow so they are going for inclusion and not shutting out 90% of the base? What a cool thought. FU Bungie.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,643
Great stuff, even better that I can opt out and either solo or roll with my own group. Playing matchmade content in Destiny with randoms gives me ulcer.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,622
Basic functionality that every game with instances/raids should have. Surprising that its a bullet point but considering how fucking dumb bungie was in regards to this with Destiny and all the comparisons between the games it had to be said.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,339
I think the concern is that the difficulty will be balanced using matchmaking as a baseline, instead of pre-made parties using extensive voice chat communication.
Creating content around matchmaking is not good.

Matchmaking should serve as people getting a taste. I'm for that, but don't balance it around a bunch of strangers thrown in a room with zero commitment to finish or communicate
I'd much rather they make content challenging and accessible to all players rather than go the route of the obtuse mechanics Destiny uses to lock most of its players out of endgame content in the name of player coordination.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,890
Columbia, SC
Strange way to look at it. They can still be challenging and require strategy, while offering you the option to matchmake. If matchmaking with randoms proves too difficult to succeed, then just form a group with friends. I'm not sure I see a problem?

Because that isn't a problem. If you had the ability to recruit people within the framework of the game along with matchmaking everyone gets to engage with the content however they choose.
 

Deleted member 864

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,544
That's a great decision, and honestly makes me more excited for the game knowing that it shouldn't be too hard to find a group for all of the content.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Thank god, Bungie's insistence on not allowing matchmaking for certain content gets more ridiculous all the time. I understand the argument that Raids could suck with randoms. But give people the option if they want it. You can still group up with your friends if you want.