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Anita Sarkeesian Tweets about barely any female characters in first two eps of Mandalorian. Goes about as well as you'd expect.
- Thread starter Fudgepuppy
- Start date
How does not seeing women in the first 3 episodes of the show normalize patriarchy? First it takes place in essentially the wild west of the star wars universe so from just a concept pov it makes sense why when he is in the bars or the desert there is no females (Well we can't tell how many of the Jawas may or may not have been females but I'm sure he showed not discrimination in blasting whoever). Second you will have to educate me on this but is there some direct correlation to lack of female representation in this show and it being linked to perpetuating the belief of patriarchy. When I say patriarchy I'm talking about it from the idea that it is showing women in a subservient or weak position to men. That certainty isn't being shown in the show (Unless I'm extremely obtuse). If anything the only female character that we have been introduced to seems to the be the leader of the Mandolorians hardly a position of weakness. From the previews of the show we know there are going to be female characters introduced. When that happens and assuming that they occupy enough screen time to satisfy this complaint does that nullify her being critical of the first 3 episodes and if not why?
Agree with all of this. This can also be applied to the movies as well, I Rouge One, but besides Jyn (insert people trying to tell me I'm wrong by naming side characters), most of the primary cast are men and their is a discussion you can have about that even if you think the movie is good or that their is a reason for that.
I also like to point an issue I've been having with a lot of the "It's only 2 episodes" comments, implying you can't have an opinion or criticise a show after X amount of episodes which is simply wrong (I remember once being told I couldn't judge Agent of Shield after watching an entire season). First impressions matter and that's what the first episode of any show is trying to achieve, to impress you into watching more of it, if it doesn't then you absolutely not obligated to continue watching it in the case it MIGHT get good for you and are absolutely allowed to say why it didn't click for you or what issues it had, no different then someone who loved has the right to say why they liked it.
I've seen that argument too many times by fans to give it any merit as it's just an excuse to dismiss any criticism they don't like or/and shut down the person saying it.
I agree and it's nothing personal against Luna. There are no characters in Rogue One worthy of their own spin-off series.
Not the monks? Not Cassian and his robot buddy? C'mon, I'd watch a Disney+ show with either pair.
It's showing a male dominance, that is what patriarchy is which doesn't account for the actual population demographics. The Mandalorian isn't a documentary of the American Wild West. Even on that, there have been female outlaws and they have been depicted in media on the wild west. It's a science fiction fantasy show. There doesn't need to be a predominantly male world in the show so far. The lore can't excuse the lack of female characters. In fact, the world established hasn't given out a reason for the demographics and population ratios shown so far. If the show isn't trying to match the reality of 50% of the population being women or trying to be more representative like the new Star Wars trilogy has been with female leads and prominent female characters, but also not giving sufficient justification for a predominantly male world so far, then it's fair to be criticised and her criticism won't be nullified because she was honing in on these first two episodes.
Hey Leeroy, I know you mean well so dont take this as me being flippant but its basically this:
If you flip the genders and in three episodes the only male was the blacksmith while everyone else is a woman, you KNOW people would be up in arms about it. They take the slightest lack of representation (even in something that is pure fiction) as a personal attack. The status quo means 90%+ Is male and everything else MUST be explained or it shouldn't exist. Thats the patriarchy
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Absolutely, and especially this bit.
Also, can you imagine if The Child had clear feminine qualities/was apparent that it's a girl, whew.
This story archetype's been done with male and female child characters before. There are a lot of hypothetical changes that could put certain types up in arms but I don't understand why you'd consider that to be one.
Let me get this straight. You think if it were clear The Child were a girl, you don't think the alt right crowd of online commentators would have any issues with it and its abilities?
To be fair it'd probably be minimal since the child is an alien, but for a human girl, well... we all know how they react to a human adult female lol
We are talking about 2019 online Star Wars fandom, not the obvious fact that the child's gender shouldn't matter.
There's already been a female Yoda in the movies. Films like True Grit are a thing. Ronin/Merc picks up a kid and protects them is a story structure which has been done a bajillion times with both male and female children.
It's not that they wouldn't care if it's a girl, it's that the kid's an infant and more a Macguffin than an actual character and thus incapable of doing things like "speak up for themselves" and "have a personality" that would piss off that crowd.
It's never been about species. Like Rey would have been accepted if she were an alien female lol
Or as if they wouldn't have complained if all the women in TLJ were female aliens instead
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So just a reminder, the usual crowd literally got bothered by the fact that there was a character who happened to be a woman that was just as good at fighting as the Mando in ep. 4....and people SURE are extra nitpicky about the episode with prominent women in it, surely a coincidence.
Even here we get unironic titles about mary sues while everything the baby does is excused as "well he's special." Logic that somehow doesn't apply to human women in the series where the force literally chose humans to represent their will and balance the force.
You're missing the point. I'm talking about a girl being able to do the feats The Child has been able to do. It wouldn't just be excused away as "well that's just because that species is powerful!"
We're also talking about people who popularized "Rey is a Mary Sue"/call characters slurs for simply existing in a movie (because they are women). People are far more toxic in these kinds of fandoms than watching just whatever random movies.
Again, these folks don't give a shit about species. If the women in TLJ were replaced with female aliens, their reaction wouldn't have been any less toxic.
It would, because the child is much more an object than a character in the context of the series and they don't mind objects. It's when the female characters aren't objects that they get mad.
No. Look up Rey is a Mary Sue. They're complaining about her accomplishments and her abilities, not her personality. They don't care how much of a character she is.
Does the galaxy of Star Wars have the same gender ratio as reality? I feel like that's not something anyone has ever described before
I think you're misunderstanding what Kirblar is saying. Baby Yoda isn't really a "person" so the typical MRA crowd probably wouldn't be mad, not the same way they were at Rey.
Anyway, no point in trying to imagine what a bunch of fuckheads would think, lol.
Are you seriously justifying the absence of women with "well actually, in the Galaxy..."?
Anyway, no point in trying to imagine what a bunch of fuckheads would think, lol.
Why the hell wouldn't it
Are you seriously justifying the absence of women with "well actually, in the Galaxy..."?
While the story has been done with male and female child characters, has it been done with a female Ronin? (Terminator 2 doesn't count, since a male Protector is still needed).
I mean by emulating reality in many aspects and not mentioning specifics, it gives the audience leeway to make that assumption. The show could tell us that all of the air in the SW universe is cyanide but until it does, it implicitly gives an impression that a lot of different species simply are breathing oxygen and that a lot of planets where humans and aliens don't use assisted breathing are probably oxygen heavy. Consequently, as long as there are male and female humans/human-like creatures and similarly binary genetics among other species, people aren't wrong to say that the demographics of the universe aren't too dissimilar to the real world. Same for people who are or potentially could be LGTBQ+ in the fiction as well.
Do you think the alt right wouldn't have gotten upset if Holdo and the women working closely near her were all female aliens? Or if Rey were one instead of a woman? Lol
If they're humanoid adult females who speak and have a personality, yes, I don't think it'd be different.
It's far beyond having a personality though, it's about femininity or any type of representation being in the films and shows in any significant way.
If they were all switched to female aliens, the reaction would have largely been the same.
Many of the women in TLJ the alt right were upset about literally didn't have speaking roles, they were just in positions of authority. They were upset that they were onscreen at all.
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Hell the alt-right gets mad at cartoon women already so I don't doubt that there'd still thousands of anti-Holdo videos if she was a fully CG Twi'leik or something. I do think though that an extra amount of vitriol and hateful effort exists when the alt-right has a real face/person they can stalk and torment though
I remember back when the most recent Godzilla came out the usual types were claiming that freaking Mothra was a "better female character" than Captain Marvel which was hilariously transparent.
Honestly that all seems like a stretch to me - assumptions are inherently extremely subjective and one person may assume something differently than another. Furthermore, since fiction is imaginary and it can be literally anything, it seems kinda poor judgment to assume anything in fiction, and then also assume others are assuming what you assume. I have now typed assume many times
It's whatever they want it to be. They've had no reason to define such a thing because it's dumb to assume it's any different from the usual.
They have, however, switched from almost all white males (in the OT) to an extremely diverse cast in the ST, and not just in the lead roles (including many more women in prominent roles, some who are in positions of power without even having speaking roles).
And that's been upsetting suspect and alt right crowds.
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I mean it could literally be anything but it isn't. Even great science fiction is world built only up to a point. Not every fictional world goes into the exact physics of its universe. Not every element of organic chemistry is outlined before starting the story. Not every aspect of demographics along with a full census is tabulated. Great fiction still "cuts corners" and leaves room for audience interpretation because it not only can't outline absolutely everything but also because what audiences might bring into the story in terms of filling in gaps isn't always detrimental to the fiction. Wookiepedia doesn't have an entry on gender breakdown because as a fictional universe, Star Wars doesn't break if people consider that it's not too different from what the reality is in the world of the audience. If SW wants people to assume different, it's allowed to change its lore but until it does there's no point in holding back critiques until SW "confirms".
Continue critiquing, I am not saying it's invalid, just pointing out the intersubjectivity here - all fiction is representative of whatever values we want it to hold, so if they hold shitty values (patriarchy) then it is valid to critique regardless of the story. I would just note that since fiction is imaginary, it's kinda hard for everyone to have the same mental frames in order to make the argument this thread is based on, so it's inherently really subjective to discuss any of this, which can cause confusion, not to diminish this shows ultimate role or place in society it may have or what effect it may have on its viewers.
Ultimately though, i just find intersubjectivity to be a maddening concept that causes a lot of strife in the world, which I find hard to communicate because human language itself is quite intersubjective so I have to rely on words that can be misinterpreted between viewers. If I can state it plainly, I am a proponent of intersectional feminism and do not wish to critique its value in society, but do wish to critique the foundations of subjectivity in how humans understand and view what they believe to be objective or subjective, and to try and point out that most things are an invention of the human mind, and therefore open to interpretation, and ultimately not objective. I do not wish to state this as a reason for why this threads critique is invalid, but rather just to inject a different viewpoint in the conversation. I hope this shows I am not trying to be a dick here lol
Just read about this.
I get where she is coming from, but what kind of dumb specific and made up requirement is to have a big woman role within the first 2 episodes of a series?
I would agree in the entire first season was like that, but first 2 episodes? What?
That is looking for a specific purpose to criticize a product, waaaay to specific.
That being said as usual I see that an internet discussion goes as expected when a woman is involved...
I get where she is coming from, but what kind of dumb specific and made up requirement is to have a big woman role within the first 2 episodes of a series?
I would agree in the entire first season was like that, but first 2 episodes? What?
That is looking for a specific purpose to criticize a product, waaaay to specific.
That being said as usual I see that an internet discussion goes as expected when a woman is involved...
I think she made the criticism prematurely - like last ep he was kicking ass with Another female bounty hunter the entire episode.
The show itself has been sold as a more Solo western/Lone wolf Gunslinger type.
Thanks for the explanation if it was reversed I can definitely see that being an issue with people. I guess because the main character has been traveling these relatively barren areas I didn't even think of it.
If we're just talking stories about lone mercs/warrior characters who act as guardian to a child, then I think the anime , Michiko to Hatchin, counts as well. The protector is female.
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Eh, I like the series a lot but... There's like 2 recurring female characters and 3 otherwise notable one-off characters. This ain't passing any Bechdel test.
I mean the nature of the show means that we literally don't care about anyone not Mando and secondarily the child. Effectively the show would never pass a Bechdel Test because nobody(male or female) in the show talks about anything but Mando(or the Child).
Good to know and interesting to contrast with The Witcher series which has more female representation and depth (also helps the showrunners and writers are women).
True, neither the Bechdel test nor the Mako Mori test are very good at "testing" Mando but I think it's pretty notable that the few female characters barely if ever interact, even when they get the chance. I guess I'd be less vexed about this if the next two D+ Star Wars series are also focused on men, possibly in "lone wolf" settings again.
To me, it kind of looks like she is baiting. Makes a possible intentional inaccurate statement, gets corrected and then cries bloody murder.
Some things she says I totally agree with but a lot of the time she swings too hard into the toxic zone and it's kind of gross.
Some things she says I totally agree with but a lot of the time she swings too hard into the toxic zone and it's kind of gross.
TIL of the Mako Mori test:
I had no idea that Rinko Kikuchi's character in Pacific Rim was that well-received.
Even just look at terminator and how it became "sjw" in their eyes with the Female protector, the old grandma as an action hero, the savior of the world being a Latino women, Arnold changing diapers, Caravans though Mexico, and skirmishes with ICE and showing people in cages at the border.
The outrage over it is all over YouTube when you look for something with terminator from these fools. Terminator is just a much smaller brand than Star Wars.
I'm not shocked, actually. She was the best character by far. God, they did such a fucking disservice to her in that shitty sequel.
The page points that out as well.