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Anita Sarkeesian Tweets about barely any female characters in first two eps of Mandalorian. Goes about as well as you'd expect.
- Thread starter Fudgepuppy
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Diversity doesn't just mean black women, I'd argue that SW is the most diverse big franchise out there right now. Already in the sequel trilogy among the good guys we have a white woman, black male, latino male, asian woman and black woman. Shitting on Star Wars because it doesn't have the specific diversity that you have, while you ignore all the rest, seems pretty shitty. You're going after the franchise that's trying the hardest to be diverse.
And I don't see why video games and comics aren't a good example, they're as much a legitimate medium as movies or TV shows.
Mandalorians are not a Matriarchal society, what are you talking about? They are meant to be an equal society, that gender doesn't matter but until Disney took over the majority of Mando characters I can think of were male.
And as Morrigan pointed out, women are not actually a minority, they are 50% of the population - if all your cast, including main characters and background characters are male, you are vastly skewing what actually is normal and presenting men as default. Yes, this isn't just a problem with Mandalorian, but that doesn't mean you can't use it as an example. Star Wars is marketed as a diverse franchise now, that means they should be open to improvements. And in terms of criticism, it's a prety mild one as well.
Most Mandalorians we've seen in the franchise are in fact male, and that continues in this series, but -every- leader of their society that has been depicted across TCW, Rebels, and this show have been women... with the exception of Pre Viszla in TCW, who overthrew the leader (Duchess Satine) and seized power. But he was a villain and ultimately paid for what he did.
As far as the cast, what I'm saying is that yeah it's a legitimate criticism, but it's weird to throw at this show specifically because it's so singularly focused around one person. There -are- background characters that are female. And Gina Carano is allegedly going to become a co-lead.
She shouldn't be harassed at all and it's gross that people would do that, but on the topic itself that she posed I kind of dislike this checkmark version of identity issues. With that being said I will find it highly suspect and odd if by the end of the season there isn't a character who is a woman that is more than just window dressing.
but I don't think every story by virtue needs to be centered around a female character either. Obviously it goes the other way as well, and I know men are very over represented in media.
but I don't think every story by virtue needs to be centered around a female character either. Obviously it goes the other way as well, and I know men are very over represented in media.
Because he ended TFA trying to run away from war. He never became the resistance hero people thought he was until TLJ.
It doesn't, which is the reason why TLJ is so critical of him.
And yet she's the one who doesn't believe she's that important since she ends the film doing this:
Rey doesn't think she's special. Or more accurately, refused to think of herself that way. She knows that she can contribute but doesn't see herself as THe jedi that the resistance needs. She spends the film putting that responsibility on others. Han, Luke, Ben. The ST is about very flawed characters who're frankly quite flawed in a meta way, and Finn is included. ter
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People trying to downplay it is really disheartening. Especially knowing people who're very into these things, (myself included), as a result of it not being marketed specifically for white people only. Like it's genuinely night and day when you watch the old movies and PT.
Like I can see the argument for comics but when it comes to games we're talking about one of the most expensive games this year with AAA production values and all the bells and whistles, which includes a metric fuck ton of performance capture and VA. Like, those actors treat it like they're filming a movie.
Because comics have been diverse for decades. And films/TV are the most visible mediums. There's far more of a financial stake in films which is exactly why we're entering 2019 with the first BW in a Star Wars mainline film! Iger would tell you this himself. Black and Latina women are the most disproportionately casted (negatively) groups in roles which is why I bring them up here.
Satine is not really a Mandalorian as so much as an offshot (is not part of that culture at all and eschews it and would likely see it arradicated). So that's Pre Viszla who is actually a Mandalorian, unlike Satine, and the head of clan Wren who is a women - that's not a Matriachal society, especially when most of the Mandolores (the ruler of the Mandalorians title) in the lore, which admittedly Disney hasn't really tapped into yet, are male, the only one I can think of that's not is Shae Vizla, and that's part of SWTOR, a BioWare game, and there's still male leaders in that game as well. The Mandalorians are not a Matriachal society, they just allow women to also be in power, but there depection has overwhelmingly been male centeres. The only example of an actual Matriachal society in Star Wars is the Night Sisters of Dathomir, and they are coded as evil and get slaughtered.
Again, Val from Solo exists.
And I'm just talking about main characters but there also was this Alliance leader in Rogue One:
And all throughout TFA and TLJ you had Alliance and First Order members who were black women. The idea that there were no black women in Star Wars until 2019 is just not true.
So we can agree Disney has been needing to do a better job here and now they are starting to? Good!Again, Val from Solo exists.
And I'm just talking about main characters but there also was this Alliance leader in Rogue One:
And all throughout TFA and TLJ you had Alliance and First Order members who were black women. The idea that there were no black women in Star Wars until 2019 is just not true.
I'm happy SW is moving past only having black women in VA roles.
Well there was also Bo Katan as well, and now this new leader of this clan in The Mandalorian. But yes, the old lore doesn't completely jive with the new lore -- and it's no longer canon. They've clearly been doing this since TCW when they really started establishing the canon version of Mandalorian lore. Like I said before, most of the Mandalorians we've seen are definitely men, but as they're ruled/led by women that makes them a Matriarchal society.
Also, The Nighsisters weren't evil. It's pretty clear throughout TCW that they were manipulated (just like many other factions) by the Sith. Ventress clearly became more of a good person by the end of that series. And the new game (Fallen Order) also features the Nighsisters in a favorable light: they were very much victims.
I'll concede that that's a more accurate interpretation of Rey's arc.
However, Finn is still mostly doing the same thing he did in the last movie. Rey is most certainly not, as you say TFA ends with her going on a quest for THE legendary Jedi. In TLJ she learns that Luke isn't exactly the savior everyone needs, her included and that she is the shit.
Finn spends two movies running away before getting attached to other people and trying to sacrifice himself for his friends/the resistance. Rey and Poe have a lot more going on and the change and differences are a lot more noticeable.
As far as who is being laughed at vs laughed with Poe is a weird example. While he's funny in TFA (all 8 minutes of it ) for the majority of his screen time in TLJ you're not supposed to laugh with Poe as he makes his flippant comments. Sure Oscar Isaac's is handsome/funny actor but his character in TLJ is written as a toxic asshole who continues to joke even when his actions have terrible repercussions. The fact that we have had two films with Finn and you think the audience is only laughing at him says a lot. As a black person trying to watch and enjoy media there is always a lot to unpack. Some of it is just the text on screen and some of it is the stuff you bring into your experience. The audience laughs with Finn because he is an endearing fish out of water constantly dealing with new situations in fast/clever/clumsy ways. When Finn escapes with Poe in TFA the audience is laughing with Finn calling Poe out on his bullshit, laughing with Finn trying to awkwardly flirt with Rey, laughing with Finn as lies to Han to get back to Star Killer base etc. Is Finn never the butt of the joke? Of course not. Like blind Han in RotJ Finn gets some physical humor at the beginning of TLJ with his Bacta Tank/ gets chastised when his character is being a selfish jerk.
The movies go out of the their way to show their work for how smart and capable Finn is. The events of TFA and TLJ have taken place over the course of maybe two weeks? Within that time Finn has managed to escape the First Order, get a name make friends, use his janitor knowledge to destroy Star Killer base( same as farmer wombrat Luke) , hold his own against a force user with a lightsaber for more than 10 secs, raise in the ranks of the resistance etc. Also, if you're complaining about underdeveloped/undeserved antagonist that's a SW problem not a Finn problem. As antagonist for Finn Phasma and DJ have had more development than Maul, Boba Fett, Count Dooku, OG trilogy Emperor ect. We understood Finns relationship with them and with Phasma he go his hero moment in combat.
Like I said earlier TFA and TLJ take place over like two weeks. Finn goes from new born baby who only cares about being with Rey and is willing to abandon everything else to a someone who is fighting for a bigger goal/purpose. He was not at that point at the end of TFA's because he got knocked the fuck out in the middle of his rescue Rey mission.
At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion but its just tiring when folks say their opinion like its fact. Just say I wanted Finn to be a completely different character and keep it pushing imo.
They aren't led/ruled by all women, they have male leaders, having some women leaders does not make a matriarchal society. The fact you see having two female leaders out of 3 leaders in the cartoon as matriachal, especially as one of the leaders had no issues as previously serving under a male leader, as a matriarchal society is baffling. There's no comments that a women has to rule or that having a male leader is unusual, and you mostly see men as Mandalorians and running the squads lower down. The reason you are seeing this as a Matriarchal society is cus in Media in general we are so used to seeing men in power that when in the limited characters we are talking about it's the other way round, we don't think "oh those women just happen to be the best at the job and earned their place there", we instead think it's odd and that something strange must be going on like Matriarchal society to put them in that position. And if it was a Matriarchal society, all the background character and soldiers etc. wouldn't be overwhelmingly male, as it's a warrior society and being a warrior is a position of power in such a society so the background characters and soldiers would be, guess what? Women. But they aren't. And you don't find that odd because we are used to in our Media, those characters naturally being men, and we never actually question were all the women are in such societies.
So to reiterate, Mandalorians are not Matriarchal, and we should absolutely criticise why in a society that is meant to be egliatarian that the vast majority of the characters are men.
Poe is not a weird example. He gets to work with a very different style of humor. I'm not really talking about his toxic masculinity or what it means to the rest of the movie - I'm talking about the times and ways that he gets to be funny.
There is a difference between who a character is and how that character is treated. At no point did I say "Boy I wish Finn was a different character" I am saying I wish they treated him differently and did more with his interesting background. If you'd rather have him run around for two films instead of them tackling what it's like to go from being a brainwashed soldier in a fascist regime to escaping and forming your own identity then alright.
His helping of Poe get off the ship was awesome, and it's what has me looking forward to seeing Poe and Finn together for TROS. However, Han is who leads the mission on Starkiller base. Chewie blows up the detonators that allow Poe and the Resistance to destroy the weapon. Yes, Finn has a lot to do with the success of that mission - but he does not come close to being as responsible for the destruction of starkiller base as Luke is for the Death Star. Finn still mostly feels like he just happens to be in the right place at the right time.
Poe is shown as a super awesome pilot - in both movies. Rey is a capable fighter in the first few minutes that we see of her and an awesome shot - part of that is due to her Force affinity but she is able to shine without the movie making light of her. Finn essentially gets to Job against Kylo and beat the same Phasma who was trapped in the garbage in the last movie.
All I'm saying is that throughout the last decade+ of Star Wars, Mandalorians have consistently been shown to be led by women first and foremost, with the exception of a guy who tried to initiate a coup. It's not like we've been read some sort of Mandalorian constitution that the leaders have to be women, sure, but everything that has been depicted of this society has shown women as being in the ultimate positions of power. Extending beyond that, all of these depictions we're talking about (as well as the Nightsisters) are the work of Dave Filoni, who is a co-showrunner on this program and has a history of creating and promoting strong female characters -- in addition to the aforementioned there is of course Sabine, Hera, and Ahsoka (who is the closest thing to a central character in TCW). Therefore I have faith in him that he will produce more great strong female characters in this show -- be it Gina Carano's upcoming character or otherwise.
Also, I know nobody saw Solo but are we just not counting Erin Kellyman/Enfys Nest?
I'm not gone lie, I did forget about Enfys.
Also, I know nobody saw Solo but are we just not counting Erin Kellyman/Enfys Nest?
I remember her, was she a rebel leader or tribal leader that helped at the end?
Lack of women in the series atm, but don't know if that is a thing for whole series. But only one black guy in it is a trend for Starwars sadly.
How many Latinx have been in star wars? Jimmy Smits, Diego Luna, Del Toro. Lupita and Freddie Prinze Jr. kind of. OH! and Pedro Pascal now too. Still fairly slim and minor parts and we aren't even seeing Pedro's face. I guess I could be mad and rage or just keep supporting and pushing them to get more Latin writers in there to make shit happen.
You are wrong - in the last decade there's been multiple male leaders in the Mandalorians - you know 3 female leaders and are suddenly saying it's a Matriarchal society. And I know who Dave Filoni is. You are the one that is saying that Anita is wrong about the lore and is thus misconstruing her criticism of the show - but you are the one that is getting the lore wrong and pronouncing something that there isn't any evidence for. Even in Disney's media, the vast majority of characters that are Mandalorian are male, there is a few speaking characters that are women, they depict them as mostly male. They aren't a Matriarchal society, having some women in power is not a Matriarchal society and there is still plenty of things to criticise about how women in the Mando's are portrayed, specifically it seems on screen that 90% of Mando's are male. And please, I beg you, stop bringing up various women in Star Wars, I've watched those shows, you can tell from the points I've already brought up I've watched those Star Wars medias, please stop bringing up facts acting like I don't know them already, when I clearly already do, I already know those characters and their depections, I just think you are wrong. You are handwaving criticisms away because you think I don't know the media, when I've already shown I know the media. While I think you mean well, it still comes off as really condescending. It's probably best we stop talking cus clearly you are ignoring what I'm actually saying.
She was the "baddie" that kept fucking with Beckett's crew throughout the movie. It's later revealed she's not selling his scores for money but rather to help out people who are being fucked over by the crime syndicates.
Not to diminish your point but to clarify, Diego Luna is getting his own series and was the second lead of Rogue One.
Fair point but I was talking up until now. Rogue One had female lead but the fight continues for gender parity as it should. I guess crumbs doesn't make for a century of media deprivation.
EDIT: and Not to hate on Luna or anything but Cassian was kind of a boring character and I say that as a Latino. I'm not sure what they are going to do that is intriguing in a whole series but after the Mandalorian I'll give it a chance.
Who is being overly sensitive here though? Anita or the sensible replies saying, "Hey, let's wait until the end of the season to criticize. We already know there's going to be multiple strong female presences here." I'm in no shape or way talking about the idiotic replies, but I am on the side of erring caution in calling out Disney who seems to be at the forefront of making major characters female and POC. In movies, in games, etc. One of my favorite characters in this show
is the female armorer. She's wise, mysterious, and seems to be at the head of the small guild of Mandalorians.
It's a tweet yo. The equivalent of a loose comment. I don't understand comparing it to "pitchforks coming out", and I dont know how you can see that as being overly sensitive. I'd understand if she made a 10-20 minute video about this, but she didn't, she just sent a tweet. If you look at a single tweet and then look at the mountain of handwringing about the tweet and think that the tweet was the more sensitive thing here, then I don't know what to tell you.
If the conversation happening was "maybe there could be more women in the show" and then that was replied simply with a couple of people saying "well, it's early maybe we should err on the side of caution and there maybe this other character which is being overlooked", it would be totally fine. That's not what happened here.
It's 6 tweets yo. We're literally three episodes into the show and we've barely scratched the surface on more than half the main characters. She doesn't like that there's no women yet (two episodes into the show then), took shots an Jon Favreau, somehow managed to give kudos to Disney at the time time for putting women and POC on the show but thinks the show isn't doing enough (two episodes in) yet one of the show's main characters early on is a POC. She wrongly talks about 2019 this show not having a speaking female part yet one of the most important characters is a female in the same armor as the main character, and then doubles down when she's corrected. As a POC myself who values POC and women in these kind of roles, this is a little bit too much.
I wouldn't exactly call Oscar Isaac's (Poe Dameron) role slim or minor.
You say six tweets as if that is a meaningful difference here to my point. And you're framing this as an issue of if she's right or wrong in what she says, when that's not the issue at all. The actual problem here is that we've reached a point where any, even minor off hand, criticism when it comes to representation in popular franchises leads a certain part of the internet to lose their minds. Even in this very thread we have people talking about "agendas being pushed" by this kind of criticism instead of just disagreeing and keeping it moving. As a POC I want conversations about representation to be commonplace and easy, not what they can be right now, which is fraught with toxicity and overreaction.
Without knowing the women you follow, women aren't a monolith. Their opinions vary. As such, you can have women that are extremely progressive still retweet things defending pewdiepie(As you mention), and you might have progressive women retweeting things you don't necessarily agree with. Whether you think that's alright or not ends up on your own views. Don't let others make judgments for you.
Well it seems the difference between us is that I don't lump the sensible criticisms to her tweets with the obvious asshole misogynistic ones. If I would have said the things that I said at the beginning of this thread before your post, would you have figured me for being "overly sensitive?"
Am I lumping sensible critique with the asshole ones or are you? Did I say all critique of what she said is bad? When I talk about a "huge backlash" being stupid, do you think I'm talking about sensible conversation or the shitposts that massively outnumber any sensibility and that are mostly driving the backlash?
So, no, I wouldn't call you "overly sensitive" for having an intelligent, thoughful critique of what she said. However I would call you "overly sensitive" if the only reason you engaged with me is because you saw me shitting on a backlash largely driven by assholes and shitposts and felt annoyed because I didn't say the equivalent of "oh, and hey people engaging in sensible conversation and being thoughtful, you're doing a good job, keep doing you".
it's a weird idea to me to suggest that even though movies / tv overall have good diversity these days and showing signs of continuing to improve, there's this idea it's not ok to have a show with no/minimal diversity in it, if that's what the creators do choose
Star Wars overall is very good for such a mainstream IP honestly
Star Wars overall is very good for such a mainstream IP honestly
The idea that a society having a few women in a position of power at some point in the lore/history being a "matriarchal society" is so comically ignorant, I don't even know what to say.
That ain't what matriarchy is. FFS.
Why do you people always constantly misrepresent the mildest of criticism (a few milquetoast tweets) as "mad rage"?
And frankly, the notion that Sarkeesian doesn't support female heroes/characters and directors and writers and just sputters with rage is ridiculous and insulting.
That ain't what matriarchy is. FFS.
Who is mad with rage?
Why do you people always constantly misrepresent the mildest of criticism (a few milquetoast tweets) as "mad rage"?
And frankly, the notion that Sarkeesian doesn't support female heroes/characters and directors and writers and just sputters with rage is ridiculous and insulting.
I see it and people can deny it and it makes sense with such loaded issue. On some level I understand the upset and have felt the same frustrations I just am coming from having worked in the actual film and television industry for 10 years now and know the mechanics and steps that will facilitate the kind of change that is needed and it is very mechanical and practical. People in power positions, producers and executives, say and publicize that they give a fuck but they really don't and are just waiting for the general public to forget things, crimes, inequities because that is so much easier than restructuring and renovating. I am sorry my comments came off as insulting and feel free to ban me but I wasn't referring to Anita in my post. That was was your assumption. My previous posts have emphasized that I almost completely agree with her premises and points I just have an issue with her tactics. I don't think that is an offensive, regressive, or unreasonable opinion to have but what do i know?
I actually asked you:
I did assume you meant Anita, but if you didn't, then... who are you talking about, then?
Misrepresenting mild criticism as being "mad" or "rage" is a very common way to be dismissive, as is implying that the only correct way to react is to support real-life women doing the work (let's not mention the implication that they aren't doing that already either).
Edit:
Read the thread. Her criticism absolutely has merit. See this post or this post.
I think she's cherry picking to make a disingenuous argument in this case.
First of all it takes like a minute of research to see there is indeed a prominent woman character shown in the trailers (Gina Carano appears to be playing an important character).
Secondly, Disney has made 5 Star Wars movies with TRoS releasing in a couple of weeks. 4/5 have a woman as the defacto lead character. That's virtually unprecedented in the genre.
It's a show that also has women directing, the last episode was directed by a woman.
Pouncing all over Lucasfilm because 3 episodes only had one speaking female character given that 1/2 of the screen time is between two characters (a masked man and a baby alien ... who may or may not be male ... do we know?).
This is a patriarchical franchise? Really?
People who resort to harassment and stuff over this though are assholes though.
First of all it takes like a minute of research to see there is indeed a prominent woman character shown in the trailers (Gina Carano appears to be playing an important character).
Secondly, Disney has made 5 Star Wars movies with TRoS releasing in a couple of weeks. 4/5 have a woman as the defacto lead character. That's virtually unprecedented in the genre.
It's a show that also has women directing, the last episode was directed by a woman.
Pouncing all over Lucasfilm because 3 episodes only had one speaking female character given that 1/2 of the screen time is between two characters (a masked man and a baby alien ... who may or may not be male ... do we know?).
This is a patriarchical franchise? Really?
People who resort to harassment and stuff over this though are assholes though.
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Internet discussion, especially anything in debate, tends to focus on gotchas. It doesn't matter if the overall point is right; if a single mistake, no matter how minor, is made, the entire argument is moot and the dog pile happens.
And while it's all inexcusable, Anita should be aware by now that doesn't help her case either. People are going to dog pile her because for some odd reason women like her and Brie Larson are the new Red Scare for men on the internet, but at least it doesn't give them any ground to trap in the random browser who doesn't know who she is or what she's about, just that she's making incorrect statements as a basis of going after something they may like.
She's better than that. Same goes with not taking account how the rest of the franchise is handling representation, which is much stronger though still has its issues.
That said, episode 3 is also absent of any additional roles, and it's becoming quite noticeable. It's a great show, but she's not wrong that its representation, which hasn't been addressed, is severely lacking. Saying the one or two odd role among the likely dozens of roles held by men is enough highlights how women are still seen as outside the norm and need to have an excuse to be present or be allowed to speak among their peers.
User Banned (2 weeks): sexist dogwhistles
Her criticism has Merritt, but Anita has a habit throughout her career to make it about her and not necessarily about the movement. And I know about the ungodly amount of harassment she gets, death threats. Which no one should go through or experience.
But I would argue if she was more part of a panel of representatives for the movement. It would not be all directed to singular person who tweets about the issue to bring levity to it.
IV seen her at panels, she comes off sometimes as a bully, and self-righteous. Gets to be on Colbert, gets tons of attention. Instead of the movement or group that she represents.
And that's my issue with how she comes off when talking about certain topics.
She makes it about her.
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The insane backlash against her personally is what makes it about her.
Oh, no doubt. But IV seen her at panels, and she is very abrasive sometimes. Like when ur on a talk show like late nite with Colbert, and you talk as if your the reason the movement has traction or it stops being about the issues the movement is trying to bring to light and change.
Also just like her early reaction to 3 episodes of a show, she has done this with other mediums.
And she gets defensive, even when there is legit discussion about her point, and possibly if she is wrong in an assessment.
But still I agree spotlight or not no one should be getting death threats and hate the way she has got.
That's the way everyone interacts in this entire show! Sheesh!
there's like no dialogue period. It's entirely paper thin.
Abrasive, self-righteous bully, does she also have uppity body language?