Angry Joe accused of sexual harassment/predatory behaviour [Updates from both posted]

[aiswyda]

I would say to women though if you ever find yourself being in a position where you feel uncomfortable, its best to say you are uncomfortable and leave and apologize for getting it all wrong if at a later time or date you end up finding out you were wrong to suspect the guy than to stay and hope you are wrong and give him the benefit of the doubt. An honest and decent man would understand and even apologize for making you in any way feel uncomfortable.

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Hey, I would ask you to not make offensive and horribly informed statements. Putting the onus on women to not get sexually harassed/assaulted sure does sound like victim blaming. And it's not in any capacity realistic and unless you have experienced being perceived by a woman by society at large, you should probably just listen to people who have. Because I guarantee you women have tried to simply leave, and have not been allowed to. How do I know? Because I've lived it.

One of the less horrific experiences: When I was 17 I was at a friend's party and was talking with this guy who I often bickered with. We got left outside alone as the rest of the party moved inside and continued our conversation. Suddenly he got a lot angrier and started invading my personal space--I told him I felt uncomfortable and tried to slip inside. He grabbed my wrists and held them in the air so I couldn't kick without falling over, screaming at me about the argument. He kept getting closer and closer even as I repeatedly told him to stop. This continued until a friend of mine (a like 6'2 guy who played a lot of sports) came to check on us--the guy immediately let go of me and pretended like nothing was happening. I told my friend, who said "that doesn't sound like him--" and asked the guy about it. He just denied it, said I was overreacting.

It didn't matter how clearly I said I was uncomfortable. In fact that really only encouraged him.

The internet people don't forgive or understand, just cancel. However, even if he proves the person is lying or it was a misunderstanding, which if very well could be. The damage is done and no one is going to care if the person was wrong or not. This is no different to a student claiming a teacher was inappropriate. Ruins a person's life, even if innocent in the end. These claims, in this day and age, should be highly scrutinized before believing. Those making false claims, should be held accountable to the highest degree, but they are not.

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Can you name a single man in a position of power within the the gaming industry who was 'canceled' online and actually had their life ruined? Who actually can no longer find work? Who has been shunned by literally everyone?

Gonna guess the answer to that one is no.

 

[Ozzie666]

I was thinking about this, and I'm not sure what I'd do in his exact position (because I don't know what it's like to have that kind of status or money, etc.) but if I was accused of something, the first step I would want to take is try to talk to the accuser and try to understand it on a personal level. Not sure if that's the best response (or even a good one), but I think I would be too scared to do anything else.


You talk about the "truth" or the "whole picture" as if the two sides are independent of it, when they are not.
The truth of the matter is, one person behaved in a way that made another person feel uncomfortable/violated/threatened. Enough so that they kept quite for a long time, afraid to take it outside of their private circles.

If Joe is innocent, it's only by virtue of being ignorant. Namely, he did not understand the signs or read the air at the time, and then somehow managed to make a bad situation worse by telling her she is "just like the rest". He is now doubling down on that ignorance by immediately responding with the victim blame card. It doesn't matter how much your head is spinning, or how absurd you find the allegations, as a rational human being you don't come back on the offensive like that. He's doing the damage himself at this point, but he can undo it if he actually does treat the situation and his accuser with an ounce of respect.

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That is a fair point, ignorance is often a cause, and not an excuse. Everyone can interpret a situation very differently. Sometimes it's only until later people can process those experiences and realize something was wrong.

 

[spman2099]

People can't express their own opinions without being dragged over the coals, unless its the popular opinion of the moment or the movement. Free speech be damned right?

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Why is it that people who reference "free speech" the most never seem to fully understand the concept?

 

[Death Penalty]

Is it the right approach to instantly believe one side and discard the other? I think that such generalisation could lead to more problems than good.

Aside from this case, let's say someone comes out and says that you showed your genitalia to him/her unwanted. (Joe did not do anything like this.) You know that did not happen. What would you expect from the public? Instantly condemn you, because the accuser historically always right? Your case is the opposite, but it is worth it, for greater good?

Each case needs to be looked individually. Each side needs to be heard. Hundreds of years ago, we had the same problem, people said that some woman are guilt, and they were burned alive, and they did not had a way to defend themselves. I don't think we should be doing witchhunts, and neither do we do sexual abuser hunts.

And I know that my analogy is not perfect, because there are no witches, but there are sexual abuser, a lot!

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That's my point, in all likelihood and according to the numbers people don't really do that sort of thing so I have nothing to worry about. In the extremely rare circumstance that these sort of false accusations are made they tend to be something that the accused can clear up pretty easily as well, as we've seen in the past. Then you just consider the metric fuckton of baggage around this issue where people don't report sexual abuse/assault at all because people- from the general public to the fucking authorities that are supposed to help- don't take these reports seriously or even vilify these people and make them victims all over again.

So yeah, in this climate with these numbers you give the accuser more leeway than you do the accused, because in all likelihood the accuser is both not lying and being actively harassed for speaking up at all. It's not rocket science, and occasional typically easily rectified collateral damage is acceptable to tackle this much larger issue of people being violated with no recourse.

 

[Bufbaf]

Given only the messages beforehand, I'd expected both of them to be happy to flirt. If she only texted like this to "get into the party" doesn't matter at all, since obviously that's why Vargas texted her anyway.

Given then the description of what happened in the room, it was pretty obvious Vargas still tried but should have understood she's not willing to flirt or start anything.

Given then everything that happened during the drive and the dinner, there's little doubt in my mind the situation was clear and he tried his damndest to keep her isolated and dependable of him, just so he could coerce her into rethinking to hook up with him.

That's how it looks to me at the moment and I'm willing to hear his story. But the near-first reaction being "lies, let me get not one, but all my lawyers first" doesn't exactly strike me with trust or confidence that this is a misunderstanding.

 

[commish]

What a piece of crap.

 

[DragonSJG]

I mean, she has screens of the convo, how can he say its false

 

[spineduke]

This is an interesting time we live in, Cancel culture and the will to readily vilify anyone for a cause. Innocent until proven guilty, seems to have been tossed aside for everything these days.

These claims, in this day and age, should be highly scrutinized before believing. Those making false claims, should be held accountable to the highest degree, but they are not.

Everyone is in such a hurry to think the worst of people, without considering the whole picture.

Obviously if it's true, its terrible, very terrible.

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Why do men all talk like this? Interesting times? Holding false accusations accountable to the highest degree? Do you not have a fucking empathetic bone in your body?

 

[Mistouze]

Of all the people on earth, it's freaking Angry Joe you're going to take a bullet for while defending him for that kind of shit?

 

[Kadath]

This entire post brushed over literally the two most important points of mine which were, to spell them out to you again, 1. generally speaking women don't falsely accuse and 2. when they do come forward they are historically not taken seriously or outright vilified. These two facts are why you should believe victims, but you go ahead and keep waxing philosophical and hand-wringing.

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Alright:
1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction (you don't use statistics to accuse someone, statistics and heuristics aren't proofs)
2- Being aware of what's uncertain and refusing beliefs doesn't mean contributing to vilify women or not taking their accusations seriously. This is a straw man.

Even if you cling to (1), because you don't have other elements to establish what's true about a situation you have no direct involvement with (like this case), it shouldn't make you CERTAIN. It would just make the accusations more probable.

 

[borntoulouselautrec]

I got banned for criticising a thread on that dude's video few weeks back. Because apparently Era really needed threads on people who use terms like "SJWs" unironically. Congrats!

e: as this really bears repeating: Believe women.

 

[Famassu]

I would say to women though if you ever find yourself being in a position where you feel uncomfortable, its best to say you are uncomfortable and leave and apologize for getting it all wrong if at a later time or date you end up finding out you were wrong to suspect the guy than to stay and hope you are wrong and give him the benefit of the doubt. An honest and decent man would understand and even apologize for making you in any way feel uncomfortable.

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Well, first of all, as has been said, don't put this responsibility solely on women. Men shouldn't put women into this position in the first place. Men shouldn't assume things, ever.

Secondly, there are a whole lot of not honest/decent men around (like, a seriously big portion of men). Even men who seem honest & decent at first might turn really aggressive in certain situations.

Third: women rejecting men has the danger of escalating situations to the point of the women at best just feeling like they are in danger or at worst actually putting them in danger of or actually suffering from physical violence. If Joe was really being as hostile as he comes off in her story, then I don't blame her for not saying it to his face that he's making her feel uncomfortable. Better just go along with it until one can find the moment/excuse to leave.

 

[gattotimo]

This is a serious issue and I hope justice will be done. The behaviour described is not ok, it's definitely predatory and deserves to be blamed. This, I hope, is something we can all agree upon. What I think is up to debate is whether one should always instantly believe the accuser or not. I think the issue is more complex than what the following post states:

1. generally speaking women don't falsely accuse and 2. when they do come forward they are historically not taken seriously or outright vilified. These two facts are why you should believe victims, but you go ahead and keep waxing philosophical and hand-wringing.

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2. I start with this one because is the one I fully agree on: it's true that historically the accuser has been put on trial instead of the accused and that therefore every allegation like this has to be seriously investigated, giving the victims time to be heard and putting them through the less stress and unease as possibile in doing so.

1. This is the part I find more problematic. 'Generally speaking' and statistics are definitely not enough to sentence a person and to put on him/her the burden of proof. The very fact the, albeit not very often, sometimes allegations turn out to be false, should suggest to avoid piling up on the accused before they have a chance to defend themselves.

On this specific case I found very inappropriate and suspicious the way AJ has chosen to defend himself. If I were to be falsely accused of something so awful as to what he is accused of having done, my first reaction wouldn't be anger but utter shock and shame. Because of course I WOULD be ashamed of having behaved in a way that led someone to think I was trying to take advantage of them. Snapping in anger without first trying to contact the victim to understand what happened and how their perception of the events is so far from what I've experienced doesn't spell good faith to me.

 

[FF Seraphim]

I was thinking about this, and I'm not sure what I'd do in his exact position (because I don't know what it's like to have that kind of status or money, etc.) but if I was accused of something, the first step I would want to take is try to talk to the accuser and try to understand it on a personal level. Not sure if that's the best response (or even a good one), but I think I would be too scared to do anything else.

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So in this instance I can see where you are coming from, however, if you fundamentally believe you did nothing wrong than contacting the accuser is probably one of the worse things to do if you don't have some mediator between the two of you because emotions are extremely high.
Legal counsel is the best thing you can do. You also don't fucking talk about it on twitter no matter now emotionally raw you are.

 

[Death Penalty]

Alright:
1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction (you don't use statistics to accuse someone, statistics and heuristics aren't proofs)
2- Being aware of what's uncertain and refusing beliefs doesn't mean contributing to vilify women or not taking their accusations seriously. This is a straw man.

Even if you cling to (1), because you don't have other elements to establish what's true about a situation you have no direct involvement with (like this case), it shouldn't make you CERTAIN. It would just make the accusations more probable.

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You're really missing the forest for the trees here. You believe victims first and foremost because statistics show us that there's a small likelihood of lying and moreover that most assaults are never even reported. You don't take it as "proof", you take a look at the numbers as a broader indication of the totally fucked up problem with the system we use to deal with issues like these, remind yourself that it's very unlikely the woman is lying, and then you grow some empathy and realize that doubting a woman who is already taking the extremely painful step to share her experiences and stand up to her accusers is in itself an act that will not only make her a victim again but will make other victims even less likely to stand up than they already are. For the sake of that tiny chance that a woman is lying about a guy who immediately shouted her down and lawyered up, you're allowing yourself to be complicit in a far, far larger problem and it's pretty disgusting.

 

[evilromero]

I never liked him or his channel. It just never appealed to me as he came off as a complete asshole right from the start. Very brave of this woman to step forward.

 

[Death Penalty]

1. This is the part I find more problematic. 'Generally speaking' and statistics are definitely not enough to sentence a person and to put on him/her the burden of proof. The very fact the, albeit not very often, sometimes allegations turn out to be false, should suggest to avoid piling up on the accused before they have a chance to defend themselves.

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I'm not a court of law and I would not want AJ to be convicted in a court of law without proper evidence. I am as a civilian however willing to accept a 7-3% risk that I'm wrong to support women when they come forward like this in a society where they're routinely preyed upon, though, especially since for all the support they may receive from conscientious people they're definitely getting harassed 10 fold. The recent accusations being so rampant should be more than enough to show you there's way more at stake here than some YouTube careers. Rioters in my home city also burned down some buildings to try and enact social change against bigotry and police brutality, and I was chill with that, too.

 

[MrCibb]

I've never watched Angry Joe, I dislike that overreacting cliche, but this'd be yet another high profile Youtuber being outed as such a nob head? Seems to attract a certain type. Or create them.

Guess we'll see where this goes. His statement's apparently coming with 'proof' of his own. Not sure what that'll be since she has screenshots. But the way I see things where there's smoke there's usually fire. People don't just make up this stuff for absolutely no reason, I feel the 1% of time that does happen gets overly weaponized against victims. Poor lass, sounds like a shite time. Will keep an eye out for his reply and decide from there.

 

[Razmos]

I mean, she has screens of the convo, how can he say its false

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Right? He basically said that is all the evidence there is as well, everything else would be eyewitness reports from people in his inner circle which most likely would be biased.

Why would she make this up? He's not exactly particularly famous or influential, he's a dime a dozen youtube celebrity with an attitude problem. Considering the amount of abuse she knew she would get, theres no way she'd lie about it

 

[Love Machine]

So in this instance I can see where you are coming from, however, if you fundamentally believe you did nothing wrong than contacting the accuser is probably one of the worse things to do if you don't have some mediator between the two of you because emotions are extremely high.
Legal counsel is the best thing you can do. You also don't fucking talk about it on twitter no matter now emotionally raw you are.

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Yeah, I can appreciate that it's not the best idea. Mediation would definitely be essential.
When I say contact the accuser and work it out, I mean first of all I would personally and privately apologise for making them feel that way. They could obviously record everything I said/wrote during the exchange.
Then upon confirming their account is entirely their honest perception of the events, I would work out what it was I did that prompted that response. Perhaps my perception was different, and it's not something I've been losing sleep over for years. In that case I would have to accept that with differing perceptions, our sensitivities may also have been different, and I would be in the wrong for having put them in that situation. I.e. try to make them feel safe and believed.

I don't know at which point this becomes more than a personal misunderstanding between two people, or at which point you're obligated to make a public, lawyer-enforced statement about it, but I would want that statement to be heartfelt and inclusive of the other's feelings (which after having talked to them and understood fully are clearly sincere), and recognising of the damage I've done (both to her and my own reputation), whether intentional or not.

It's only after having done that - the bare minimum needed for reparation - that I would try to undo some of that damage.
That, to me at least, would be an example of going on the defensive rather than the offensive when presented with such accusations, and a first step on the path to hopefully clearing my name and making myself a better person, especially if I didn't feel like I'd done any wrong in the first place.

 

[DragonSJG]

How can he take legal action?

 

[Deleted member 46489]

I'm not a court of law and I would not want AJ to be convicted in a court of law without proper evidence. I am as a civilian however willing to accept a 7-3% risk that I'm wrong to support women when they come forward like this in a society where they're routinely preyed upon, though, especially since for all the support they may receive from conscientious people they're definitely getting harassed 10 fold. The recent accusations being so rampant should be more than enough to show you there's way more at stake here than some YouTube careers. Rioters in my home city also burned down some buildings to try and enact social change against bigotry and police brutality, and I was chill with that, too.

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This. No one's talking about sentencing a person or setting them on fire on a stake or any other weird medieval punishment.

Could this be a false accusation? It could. But think about it. What does this woman stand to gain from this? She's now about to be sued by Joe, his fans are probably sending her death threats, and she's made herself incredibly vulnerable online (and possibly offline) to alt-right mobs, red pillers and a whole bunch of other misogynists.

"Believe Women" doesn't mean "believe women when they have all the evidence a court might require and a watertight case."

The entire point of the phrase is that these assaults often happen in circumstances where they aren't easy to document or record. And that the society ridicules, harasses and refuses to believe women when they do come out with their stories. Which makes most women reluctant to publicly talk about what is already a harrowing, messed up, difficult-to-discuss event.

Look at accusers of Harvey Weinstein before #metoo. Or Bill Clinton's accusers. Or Donald Trump's accusers. Or Louis CK's accusers. All of these women were disbelieved, ridiculed and harassed when they initially came out with their stories. I could keep typing names. The list is endless.

 

[FF Seraphim]

How can he take legal action?

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It would be a defamation suit, a form of tort, not a criminal case but a civil one for damages.
How he would go about doing that I have no idea because she brought receipts.

 

[Death Penalty]

This. No one's talking about sentencing a person or setting them on fire on a stake or any other weird medieval punishment.

Could this be a false accusation? It could. But think about it. What does this woman stand to gain from this? She's now about to be sued by Joe, his fans are probably sending her death threats, and she's made herself incredibly vulnerable online (and possibly offline) to alt-right mobs, red pillers and a whole bunch of other misogynists.

"Believe Women" doesn't mean "believe women when they have all the evidence a court might require and a watertight case."

The entire point of the phrase is that these assaults often happen in circumstances where they aren't easy to document or record. And that the society ridicules, harasses and refuses to believe women when they do come out with their stories. Which makes most women reluctant to publicly talk about what is already a harrowing, messed up, difficult-to-discuss event.

Look at accusers of Harvey Weinstein before #metoo. Or Bill Clinton's accusers. Or Donald Trump's accusers. Or Louis CK's accusers. All of these women were disbelieved, ridiculed and harassed when they initially came out with their stories. I could keep typing names. The list is endless.

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Appreciate this post, very well said.

 

[Yukari]

How can he take legal action?

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Defame/libel? I'm not sure.

 

[spineduke]

"Believe Women" doesn't mean "believe women when they have all the evidence a court might require and a watertight case."

The entire point of the phrase is that these assaults often happen in circumstances where they aren't easy to document or record. And that the society ridicules, harasses and refuses to believe women when they do come out with their stories. Which makes most women reluctant to publicly talk about what is already a harrowing, messed up, difficult-to-discuss event.

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It's happening right now - hundreds of comments ridiculing, dismissing and straight up attacking this woman for speaking up. Even this thread had it's share of detractors. "Cancel culture going too far" . There's a culture far far ahead of cancel culture, it's rape culture. Perpetuated by the worst elements of society and enabled by a silent majority indifferent to the status quo simply because it would disrupt their favorite hobby. I have nothing but utter contempt for those who dare to silence women in these circumstances.

 

[PayaV87]

That's my point, in all likelihood and according to the numbers people don't really do that sort of thing so I have nothing to worry about. In the extremely rare circumstance that these sort of false accusations are made they tend to be something that the accused can clear up pretty easily as well, as we've seen in the past. Then you just consider the metric fuckton of baggage around this issue where people don't report sexual abuse/assault at all because people- from the general public to the fucking authorities that are supposed to help- don't take these reports seriously or even vilify these people and make them victims all over again.

So yeah, in this climate with these numbers you give the accuser more leeway than you do the accused, because in all likelihood the accuser is both not lying and being actively harassed for speaking up at all. It's not rocket science, and occasional typically easily rectified collateral damage is acceptable to tackle this much larger issue of people being violated with no recourse.

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Did you know why the doctors ask for second opinion from other doctors, but don't tell the second doctor anything about the case? Becuase they want to avoid prejudice (yes even unconcious). You should not watch any case (anything actually) in a "climate". You should observe everything in a vacuum, because that is what you will expect when you are the accused.

 

[arcadepc]

It would be a defamation suit, a form of tort, not a criminal case but a civil one for damages.
How he would go about doing that I have no idea because she brought receipts.

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This is why in case you want to make things public, better seek legal advice or contact an appropriate private or public agency specialising in abuse and violence against women. If you make things public by yourself, especially in subjective unofficial and non-legal language , even this can be used against you in the court, not to mention the online and offline mob.

Though usually in such cases all names, both accuser's and accused, are kept private in order not to obstruct the inquiry and protect the people affected.

 

[PayaV87]

I'm not a court of law and I would not want AJ to be convicted in a court of law without proper evidence. I am as a civilian however willing to accept a 7-3% risk that I'm wrong to support women when they come forward like this in a society where they're routinely preyed upon, though, especially since for all the support they may receive from conscientious people they're definitely getting harassed 10 fold. The recent accusations being so rampant should be more than enough to show you there's way more at stake here than some YouTube careers. Rioters in my home city also burned down some buildings to try and enact social change against bigotry and police brutality, and I was chill with that, too.

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Will you accept the risk if it about you? If you are being wrongly accused?
If your life's work is burned by rioters? If your career, your job, your livelihood at stake?

 

[EggmaniMN]

lmao are we really talking about Angry Joe like his life is RUINED in any fashion by all of this? The chud with alt right goobers massing around him with a ton of money? Fuck the guy, believe the women. He's just going to end up with even more of the same chuds swarming even worse and he won't get taken off youtube because he'll just bring them a million more clicks per week. And the women will end up badgered for the rest of their lives by manchildren because they were brave enough to speak out.

 

[spineduke]

Will you accept the risk if it about you? If you are being wrongly accused?
If your life's work is burned by rioters? If your career, your job, your livelihood at stake?

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How many examples do you have of men being ruined by false accusations? I'm listening

 

[Pulp]

How can he take legal action?

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Guy has money and lawyers are expensive. My guess is that these tweets about lawyering up is a threat hoping to silence the victim. Which is not a good look on him

 

[The_Freeman]

The replies to her posts from the AJ fans are just awful. No wonder people are scared to come forward if this is the sort of vitriol they face.

 

[PayaV87]

How many examples do you have of men being ruined by false accusations? I'm listening

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I don't like how you are framing that question, you seems to assume that I think Angry Joe is innocent. I'm not.

There is no point counting down the exact examples. You are still approaching this from statistical sense, which is objectively wrong, please answer the question about risktaking if it affects you, and we will have a conversation going instead of assumptions.

(If you really want examples, here you go: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=men+ruined+by+false+rape)

 

[.exe]

There is no point counting down the exact examples. You are still approaching this from statistical sense, which is objectively wrong, please answer the question about risktaking if it affects you, and we will have a conversation going instead of assumptions.

(If you really want examples, here you go: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=men+ruined+by+false+rape)

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Why not? Compare those numbers to the stats on gender-based abuse. The difference in comparative risk is preposterously huge. Like almost every woman has to deal with this -- compared to a small handful of men accused by people with bad intentions. Tough shit. These numbers will continue to be preposterously huge until people feel free to speak openly about it, shame the offenders, get others educated on how not to treat people and get out of this culture of normalized abuse. You're way in the wrong here, imo.

 

[Specter316]

Hey, I would ask you to not make offensive and horribly informed statements. Putting the onus on women to not get sexually harassed/assaulted sure does sound like victim blaming. And it's not in any capacity realistic and unless you have experienced being perceived by a woman by society at large, you should probably just listen to people who have. Because I guarantee you women have tried to simply leave, and have not been allowed to. How do I know? Because I've lived it.

One of the less horrific experiences: When I was 17 I was at a friend's party and was talking with this guy who I often bickered with. We got left outside alone as the rest of the party moved inside and continued our conversation. Suddenly he got a lot angrier and started invading my personal space--I told him I felt uncomfortable and tried to slip inside. He grabbed my wrists and held them in the air so I couldn't kick without falling over, screaming at me about the argument. He kept getting closer and closer even as I repeatedly told him to stop. This continued until a friend of mine (a like 6'2 guy who played a lot of sports) came to check on us--the guy immediately let go of me and pretended like nothing was happening. I told my friend, who said "that doesn't sound like him--" and asked the guy about it. He just denied it, said I was overreacting.

It didn't matter how clearly I said I was uncomfortable. In fact that really only encouraged him.



Can you name a single man in a position of power within the the gaming industry who was 'canceled' online and actually had their life ruined? Who actually can no longer find work? Who has been shunned by literally everyone?

Gonna guess the answer to that one is no.

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As awful as it is to use this example, Alec Holowka. In the days leading to his death, virtually everything seemed to be taken from him. His last project, his partnership, and even (seemingly) his friendships with other industry members. I don't know if he was innocent or guilty and wouldn't profess to.

 

[.exe]

As awful as it is to use this example, Alec Holowka.

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He committed suicide. And it was not the fault of the people speaking up.

 

[spineduke]

There is no point counting down the exact examples. You are still approaching this from statistical sense, which is objectively wrong, please answer the question about risktaking if it affects you, and we will have a conversation going instead of assumptions.

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That's a convenient position to take, when I tell you statistically the majority of accusations are true, or that assault/harassment cases are severely underreported worldwide.

 

[PayaV87]

That's a convenient position to take, when I tell you statistically the majority of accusations are true, or that assault/harassment cases are severely underreported worldwide.

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My argument is "please don't condemn anyone so easily based on statistic". But fine. Let's play it this way. The false rape accusations are about 5,5% of the cases. Do you know how many murder accusations turned out to be wrong? 3.3%. So according to your logic, murder charges are also always true, in fact more true than rape accusations.

 

[Death Penalty]

Will you accept the risk if it about you? If you are being wrongly accused?
If your life's work is burned by rioters? If your career, your job, your livelihood at stake?

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As a male I could potentially be "targeted" by this sort of behavior (spoiler alert: I won't be) and I still feel this way so I guess there's your answer? Sounds like you were one of those "but what about the property damage" people during the riots as well. I actually live in the Twin Cities, rioters were causing damage only a few blocks away from my home and I'll tell you what I still stood with them. Some things are more important.

 

[Nonagon]

If it is true, this is a very private matter between the two of them. No amount of one-sided declarations (from either) will spark the understanding of finer underlying details while interacting, that often decide how one acts in the spur of moment.

 

[Death Penalty]

My argument is "please don't condemn anyone so easily based on statistic". But fine. Let's play it this way. The false rape accusations are about 5,5% of the cases. Do you know how many murder accusations turned out to be wrong? 3.3%. So according to your logic, murder charges are also always true, in fact more true than rape accusations.

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Difference between murder and sexual assault is that if you're a victim of the first one nobody will doubt you or ask you if you misunderstood something, and there's no greater bias against your case being believed or looked into. In fact, sexual assault is really the only thing that works that way. Funny! You gotta see how this isn't even close to the same situation.

 

[Eeyore]

Why do men all talk like this? Interesting times? Holding false accusations accountable to the highest degree? Do you not have a fucking empathetic bone in your body?

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The answer is no they don't. They don't care that 99% of rape victims never see justice because we have a broken system that still doesn't help women in these situations.

 

[PayaV87]

As a male I could potentially be "targeted" by this sort of behavior (spoiler alert: I won't be) and I still feel this way so I guess there's your answer? Sounds like you were one of those "but what about the property damage" people during the riots as well. I actually live in the Twin Cities, rioters were causing damage only a few blocks away from my home and I'll tell you what I still stood with them. Some things are more important.

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Please don't make assumptions on my behalf. I think BLM are an extremely important movement, and something that had to happen for a while now. I also think that the riots were done in a way, that reflects negatively the movement and caused a lot of harm fighting for this cause. As how the US police handled the riots was also just fire to the whole thing. And most of the problems are rooted at the how they operate, which needs serious reforms.

Oh, and please don't make me admire you based on that where you live, and you were "almost" affected. What would have happened if your car was burned? Or your house? Would you reacted the same way?

 

[Unclebenny]

I don't like how you are framing that question, you seems to assume that I think Angry Joe is innocent. I'm not.

There is no point counting down the exact examples. You are still approaching this from statistical sense, which is objectively wrong, please answer the question about risktaking if it affects you, and we will have a conversation going instead of assumptions.

(If you really want examples, here you go: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=men+ruined+by+false+rape)

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I am begging you to stop pretending you know anything about objectivitiy. There is literally no way to assess this accusation, either personally or in a court of law (not that it would ever come to that) in an objective way.

The man involved literally wields a fanbase of millions of people who will be happy to attack and demean the accuser. He is also independently wealthy and will be able to afford lawyers. In response, she has nothing. She's not rich, she is not known by anyone outside of this accusation.

Even if it was to make it to court, courts of law are not some moral and contextuless vacuum where people make judgement based only on the evidence presented. Existing biases come into play.

That's why we refer to statistics on the low number of false accusations and the lack of damage it causes to man, when the accusation proves to be true. If we all sat on the fence waiting for some damning evidence to fall in our laps these men would always get away with it. In fact, that's literally what happens.

That's why there is a call to believe women because oftentimes, that's all they have. Our belief. They are statistically almost certain to get nowhere with law enforcement, nowhere in the courts and be demonized by the public. Get off the fucking fence and stop pretending you are helping.

 

[Death Penalty]

Please don't make assumptions on my behalf. I think BLM are an extremely important movement, and something that had to happen for a while now. I also think that the riots were done in a way, that reflects negatively the movement and caused a lot of harm fighting for this cause. As how the US police handled the riots was also just fire to the whole thing. And most of the problems are rooted at the how they operate, which needs serious reforms.

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Oh, so I was right.

Oh, and please don't make me admire you based on that where you live, and you were "almost" affected. What would have happened if your car was burned? Or your house? Would you reacted the same way?

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Yep.

 

[gattotimo]

That's a convenient position to take, when I tell you statistically the majority of accusations are true, or that assault/harassment cases are severely underreported worldwide.

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Yes, that's true... but being statistically correct doesn't make it right to destroy any innocent person's life when the odd false accusation happens. Each case should be investigated by itself.

 

[.exe]

My argument is "please don't condemn anyone so easily based on statistic". But fine. Let's play it this way. The false rape accusations are about 5,5% of the cases. Do you know how many murder accusations turned out to be wrong? 3.3%. So according to your logic, murder charges are also always true, in fact more true than rape accusations.

Click to shrink...

This is very similar to "all lives matter" type rhetoric. The point is not to say that all accusations are right 100% percent of the time; the point is to change the presumptive norm and recognize that an overwhelming majority of women go through various types of gendered abuse and harassment. That a stepping stone towards dealing with these deeply rooted issues. The amount of unhealthy skepticism levied towards abuse victims is part of why many people don't talk about it and why it's still so common.

 

[Specter316]

He committed suicide. And it was not the fault of the people speaking up.

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And I'm not saying it was. It's an example of one person who was accused and therefore cancelled within the games industry.

 

[PayaV87]

I am begging you to stop pretending you know anything about objectivitiy. There is literally no way to assess this accusation, either personally or in a court of law (not that it would ever come to that) in an objective way.

The man involved literally wields a fanbase of millions of people who will be happy to attack and demean the accuser. He is also independently wealthy and will be able to afford lawyers. In response, she has nothing. She's not rich, she is not known by anyone outside of this accusation.

Even if it was to make it to court, courts of law are not some moral and contextuless vacuum where people make judgement based only on the evidence presented. Existing biases come into play.

That's why we refer to statistics on the low number of false accusations and the lack of damage it causes to man, when the accusation proves to be true. If we all sat on the fence waiting for some damning evidence to fall in our laps these men would always get away with it. In fact, that's literally what happens.

That's why there is a call to believe women because oftentimes, that's all they have. Our belief. They are statistically almost certain to get nowhere with law enforcement, nowhere in the courts and be demonized by the public. Get off the fucking fence and stop pretending you are helping.

Click to shrink...

I think it is important for both sides to be heard. I still think it is important the she came forward. BUT I'm trying to make you think about the possibility that while you are on the other side of the fence, and I'm sitting on top, please imagine being on the other side. (spoiler alert: I know you won't ever be there).