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excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Because they just don't matter much anymore. Radio and TV in our times pretty much play catch up to the Internet. Radio and TV were also very consistence, local, slow, easier to talk to, make correction and are much transparent. Social Media is a wildfire in comparison.
Ronald Reagan got elected by major landslides twice without Twitter and Facebook and he did it by winning all but one State and Washington DC in 1984.... and will never be thought of as evil at all let alone anywhere close to Like Trump is despite being a menace
 

Shoot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,532
TIL Era is against hate speech laws.
She is not talking about Trump. She is talking about executives and Company boards being the only, utterly unsupervised power able to limit speech in the US and how that is some really dystopian shit. She is literally saying that there should be MORE Limits to speech in the US, in the form of hate speech laws, but that profit-oriented companies and executives should not be involved in deciding what is and isnt that.

Is that really a discussion? That unelected billionaires who lucked into an idea that was compatible with future capitalist needs like Marc Zuckerberg should not hold the power to decide what is and isnt considered hate speech? Or speech of any kind? Because thats her entire Argument. I struggle to see how anyone could ever disagree with that
This. I am shocked by the responses in this thread.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
I think she has a point. It's dangerous to leave this up to the social media company. Look at the constant bullshit from Fox News, look at four years asking Twitter to do something about Trump. There need to be legal tools, corporations should not and can not be trusted to make calls on these scenarios.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
She is not talking about Trump. She is talking about executives and Company boards being the only, utterly unsupervised power able to limit speech in the US and how that is some really dystopian shit. She is literally saying that there should be MORE Limits to speech in the US, in the form of hate speech laws, but that profit-oriented companies and executives should not be involved in deciding what is and isnt that.

Is that really a discussion? That unelected billionaires who lucked into an idea that was compatible with future capitalist needs like Marc Zuckerberg should not hold the power to decide what is and isnt considered hate speech? Or speech of any kind? Because thats her entire Argument. I struggle to see how anyone could ever disagree with that
This. The fact that banning Trump was the right thing to do doesn't mean it's right for a corporation to decide who should have a microphone. No terms of service bullshit, America needs laws that make it clear was is and isn't ok, then instead of banning from Twitter, you can actually prosecute hate speech.
 

Starmud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,443
I have little faith in the U.S. regulating speech online through congress. Whatever solution is coming will squarely blame the companies, expecting them to find a half baked answer through self moderation/ useless warning labels. Our government approaching social media as if the solution could be breaking them up shows how antiquated the thinking is.

Some countries in Europe and Asia have shown an ability to regulate forms of speech as harmful in a public space. Some countries are better at keeping internet companies responsible to their own TOS or lack of TOS when it comes to speech/data. It's wild to me that using something as simple as an MMO in Korea requires more identification then Facebook here in America.

Ideally this would be an issue handled through regulation, it's not something either side should be happy to leave to a few companies. Given the cultural differences and history's impact on our governing views of speech, we do need private companies to enforce their TOS. The only way of regulating them here is through public opinions impact on how the service should operate.

Trumps rise and the explosion of social media showed the trouble of unfettered speech online or offline. From hate to conspiracy. In American culture were conditioned to tell someone it's their right, regardless of the language or level of disagreement. A solution requires a debate that I don't think this country can objectively have anytime soon. Right now we're fighting over the drawing of lines by some calling it cancel culture, it's good the debate is happening but it's early.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,954
TIL Era is against hate speech laws.

This. I am shocked by the responses in this thread.
She is also talking in German, despite being able to speak English. It's to a home audience, not to Americans. She's calling for states to be able to regulate speech on the internet, which she has done before and regularly tries to influence the EU in doing. Non-American states with string hate speech laws are terrified of leaving the regulation of speech to some American plutocrats. She's a religious conservative so it's hardly surprising that she's pro-censorship.
Trump's ban is just an excuse to push her point again.

And if calling for insurrection and the storming of government buildings is illegal in the USA, why isn't Trump being prosecuted under the same laws that stop Al Qaeda or other terrorists from doing so?
The American constitution guarantees an independent judiciary and law enforcement, right? (Maybe don't answer that)
 

oledome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
This is kind of my point though, they didn't shut down Trump's Twitter just because of the TOS, they shut it down because it became super obvious that him continuing to tweet was a threat to public safety despite making it clear they really didn't want to until after the inauguration. That's not to say I'm upset about it of course, but using the events of last week as a springboard for this conversation just seems like a terrible idea because that was a completely unprecedented event in the history of both the USA and the internet (and again, wasn't hate speech).
Ok I see what you mean, I suppose to your point if something is that dangerous (whatever exactly it would be classed as) then one hopes there would be statutes to protect the country against it in the future, or current ones used more robustly. Incitement isn't normally illegal in the US but it is for rioting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement#United_States, that doesn't help the seeping, creeping nature of these things though. Anyhow, I don't have a proposal.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
And if calling for insurrection and the storming of government buildings is illegal in the USA, why isn't Trump being prosecuted under the same laws that stop Al Qaeda or other terrorists from doing so?
The American constitution guarantees an independent judiciary and law enforcement, right? (Maybe don't answer that)
Can't arrest a President until you impeach in the House and convict in the Senate and guess who controls the Senate.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,984
I do think America's freedom of speech laws are a problem that's going to continue to get ignored. Hate speech has been repeatedly stated to be be protected speech in the US, even up to the point of burning a cross on a black family's lawn.




Tech companies should be held to account, yes, but you can't expect tech companies to be held to account when your laws are explicitly designed to say that hate speech is okay.

America was heavily involved in the denazification of Germany, but it had no interest in doing the same thing domestically despite having Nazi supporters within the country.
 
Jul 19, 2020
1,131
I disagree that Trump being banned is in any way, shape, or form a bad thing - he should be de-platformed as much as is possible given his hateful, dangerous rhetoric. That said yeah, the government should ideally take a more active role in regulating and controlling big online/media companies and the forms of speech and types of political discourse they platform - hate speech laws are a good thing, and the potential for their abuse isn't a good enough argument against them for me particularly when they'd help a hell of a lot with suppressing the political actors who'd most seek to try corrupt their implementation. Bigotry and advocating for it should have legal consequences.

Name one better european leader.
I've yet to hear a bad thing about the current PMs of Finland or Iceland but I'd be lying if I said I read a lot of news about what goes on in either country.
God I'm going to look them up and be disappointed when I find out they both have killed people while drunk driving or something now aren't I?
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
I get the unease that some people have when it comes to how much power social media companies can have when it comes to steering discourse. Frankly, I've always felt that the attitude of "they're a private entity so they can police their communications and users how they see fit" has been shortsighted for what should be obvious reasons.

But, like, this is the worst case to invoke that. The problem with Trump has long been that he's been afforded special privileges that would get any ordinary joe banned if they said and did the kind of shit he does. Tech bros actually enforcing their rules against him for once is not the problem.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,201
It's a case of whynot both. I'm all for hate speech laws, but I don't really give a fuck that Twitter can kick someone off their platform if they violate their TOS. European politicians from all across the spectrum feel concerned about this right now, but the real question is more what the fuck took so long.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,538
Switzerland
Hum... did the title change at some point or something? Did nobody read the articles? I don't understand the backlash i read from the first few pages...

she wants hate speech laws in the US... like in germany... meaning it shouldn't be on big tech companies only to regulate hate speech like it is in the US right now... how is that bad?
 

TheBryanJZX90

Member
Nov 29, 2017
3,016
Hum... did the title change at some point or something? Did nobody read the articles? I don't understand the backlash i read from the first few pages...

she wants hate speech laws in the US... like in germany... meaning it shouldn't be on big tech companies only to regulate hate speech like it is in the US right now... how is that bad?
Yes, originally the title left out the context of anti hate speech laws and just said that she didn't want Twitter to ban him
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
President of the United States has the ability to host daily press briefings. Donald Trump chose to disregard that norm and have Twitter as his information driver (likely so he could delete which you cannot do with video). So, no it's only different cause Trump has a big name which isn't really good justification why the TOS shouldn't apply to him.
Eh.

I agree that he didn't need to use Twitter, but I think you're downplaying how vital being a part of that platform is when it comes to politics, social issues, etc - these days. Twitter isn't just another forum or something - it's way bigger than that now.

We can do this all day lol. I still think it's insane that tech companies are the ones with the power (and apparently the responsibility in the US) to silence the highest position of power.
 

RisingStar

Banned
Oct 8, 2019
4,849
What's up with the first page? She's not wrong here, we shouldn't be depending on bloody CEOs of tech companies to make a rational decision to limit further violent acts instead of the actual government who "govern" the country allegedly.

Maybe I'm missing some nuance here.
 

Kanhir

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,889
Damn... We make fun of republicans/altrights for believing the dumbest things, yet people here jump on any title like it's gospel without bothering to check the context and what's in the article
Era is great for this. This Metallica thread is basically custom made to prove that people don't even bother reading the OP before landing their hot takes.

I'm genuinely happy that the thread title got updated, because that seems to be all people are reading here and nopeing out on the nuance.
 
Nov 11, 2017
2,249
Thank god we had freedom of speech when Trump was president. He would have absolutely manipulated hate speech laws. This is why hate speech laws are a very bad idea.
 

ColdSun

Together, we are strangers
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,290
Doesn't Trump have a press room, so how is he being silenced? He's not entitled to use a private site just because. Twitter and Facebook booting him isn't doing anything against "Free speech". They're private companies free to boot whoever they want off their sites.

As far as passing laws to regulate speech? The 1st amendment makes it challenging and I doubt we'll see any reform on that front anytime soon.
 

WolfForager

Member
Oct 27, 2017
248
Completely agree with her. The fact that tech companies can regulate what is and isn't free/hate speech is ridiculous. It should be done by law. Twitter should have been forced by law years ago to delete Trump's twitter account as opposed to 2 weeks before he was leaving office, when they had little to gain from keeping him on their platform.

Twitter loved the number of views that Trump's tweets got over the last 6-8 years, the only suspended it now to reclaim some good faith in the eye of the public.

Maybe it's just a European vs. US thing, but as a European (Irish) I agree with hate speech laws.
 
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subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,084
Should be codified in law. You shouldn't have to rely on the whims of private companies for the right thing to occur.
 

Porcupine

Member
Oct 27, 2017
848
She is not talking about Trump. She is talking about executives and Company boards being the only, utterly unsupervised power able to limit speech in the US and how that is some really dystopian shit. She is literally saying that there should be MORE Limits to speech in the US, in the form of hate speech laws, but that profit-oriented companies and executives should not be involved in deciding what is and isnt that.

Is that really a discussion? That unelected billionaires who lucked into an idea that was compatible with future capitalist needs like Marc Zuckerberg should not hold the power to decide what is and isnt considered hate speech? Or speech of any kind? Because thats her entire Argument. I struggle to see how anyone could ever disagree with that

Thank you for bringing some reason into this thread, most people clearly don't understand what Merkel was talking about.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,932
It's a case of whynot both. I'm all for hate speech laws, but I don't really give a fuck that Twitter can kick someone off their platform if they violate their TOS. European politicians from all across the spectrum feel concerned about this right now, but the real question is more what the fuck took so long.
Because like laws, all rules are subject to biased enforcement in order to achieve a desired outcome
 

Toastie

Member
Jun 17, 2018
126
This conversation reminds me of gun rights. Just because it's really really really hard to change, doesn't mean you shouldn't. As with all change, you start small and build on success.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,688
Any argument in any context that ends with concluding it's not right Trump was banned from Twitter is wrong. Fucking wrong. As in, you're wrong, and fuck you.

And if you are trying to make some other point: this is not the fucking time to do so, and not the example to use.
 

Brat-Sampson

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,463
Pages of people not reading the article/misconstruing her point, nice to see.

To be clear, I fully agree. The tech companies shouldn't be the arbiters of what people can and can't say, because that should already be defined by the laws of the country.

Can't just read the first part and disagree without taking the second into account.
 

the lizard

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,862
Unless y'all are seeing something I'm not, it seems like a lot of folks are misinterpreting what she's saying... I don't get the sense she believes that Trump's speech is protected or anything like that, but rather that it shouldn't come down to tech companies to make that decision. We should have stronger digital regulations in place to prevent bullshit like this from happening. If we had, it may not have gotten to this point in the first place.

Am I off-base?

Edit: yeah I'm like 90% sure a lot of you didn't read the article. Not sure what makes any of you think Merkel would make a free speech argument here... she's arguing for just the opposite.
 

Magni

Member
Stopped reading after the first couple of dozen replies, looks like everybody completely missed the point. She's not saying that Trump getting kicked off Twitter is bad. She's saying Twitter deciding that (rather than it being decided by laws) is bad. She's saying that US laws are way too lax on this point, and IMO, she's right. Trump should have gotten kicked off long ago because his inciting violence and hatred should have been illegal.
 
Aug 13, 2019
3,575
Should be codified in law. You shouldn't have to rely on the whims of private companies for the right thing to occur.
Absolutely this. It shouldn't come down to Facebook or Twitter making the decision to deplatform Trump. He's been inciting hatred and violence since before he took office and should have been dealt with years ago. Laws should already exist to keep even the leader of the nation in check and they shouldn't be immune to the consequences of breaking those laws. We should be ashamed that it came to this.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,455
So inciting a coup is protected free speech now, got it.

That's not what she said, it was less "freedom of speech is sacred" more "you should have hate speech laws to do this properly and when necessary instead of trusting a company to do it years late", ya know, like most other first world countries do
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
TIL Era is against hate speech laws.
It's too late for America to get them. The US constitution's first amendment (and the second but that's for another thread) is far too broad by European standards but the rules should have been set up when the country was in a more united mood, if you put hate speech rules into place now you'd likely have Republicans writing them and deeming BLM hate speech but Parler acceptable. You need to keep the hate speakers away from the levers of power for hate speech laws to have the intended effect, the US is too far past that point.

IMO the US system is so deadlocked with how radical Republicans have become and how the system cannot handle blockading well it's due for a collapse within a few presidential terms. The institutions are suffused with white supremacy (especially the police) and the constitution is rusted shut and a massive obstacle to reform, enshrining many of the archaic problems the US has. There's a need for a political reset that starts with a modernized constitution and basic systems like elections (e.g. moving away from FPTP) and reforming the role of the presidency. Unfortunately such a reset won't happen until after shit buries the fan as the Republicans will prevent any efforts to fix the system's problems. There's also a need for a massive attitude shift towards white supremacy and active moves to weaken it. The ingrained racism and rightwing bias of the institutions that actually enforce the laws will make sure any attempts to stop the white supremacists will be perverted. It must be possible to fire cops for being fascists (or misbehaving in a ton of different ways) instead of letting them keep their jobs anyway or just move to a different department to keep up the same shit. This stuck system is going to collapse under its own rust and hopefully will receive major overhauls as a result, sadly it's more likely that things will get worse and it'll be replaced with a fascist dictatorship.
 

Cygnus X-1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
971
It is correct: the politics and the lawmakers should make and enforce the boundaries of free speech.

When freedom of speech is causing physical or psychological harm, it's an abuse and it's an offence, and it should be considered as such. No ifs and no buts. Setting these legal boundaries is important, as the freedom of any individual should end where the freedom of others begins.

The fact that companies can decide if and when to censor hate speech is ridiculous because there is no guarantee of if and when they will do it.

Law is a law on the other hand: if hate speech is forbidden, it will systematically get censored.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,249
I might be misinterpreting what she said but the way I read it she's advocating US laws that would have shut down Trumps racist messages from day one instead of having to rely on tech companies to ban him years too late after the damage has already been done.
Reading everyone's reactions tells me I might be wrong.

/edit: Nah. It seems people jumped in here after only reading a misleading headline.
 
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GUArutha

Member
Apr 25, 2018
414
Nah, fuck that. Also, pretty rich coming from a country that already has very extensive rules against hate speech - why should we be told to tolerate it when they make it 100% illegal themselves?

That's her whole point. There should be laws prohibit such tweets which encourage violence against specific people. Make it illegal and not that it depends on management of companies.
 

pirata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,410
Yeah saw this earlier. Super shameful but to her defense tha Internet is new ground for us Germans ... since 10 years or so xD

As someone who was an exchange student to rural South Germany back in 2008...yeah, it was basically dial up, maybe a bit better. That was right before smart phones became a big deal, too (and months before the Great Recession). I'm sure things have changed a lot very quickly...
 
Dec 16, 2017
268
This forum is embarrassing. I'm actually shocked by the lack of reading comprehension displayed by a lot of comments which makes me question the average user age on here.
Yet, people on here make tons of fun of "Trumpers" believing everything they hear and misrepresenting facts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
You know what, I couldn't care less about the substance of her or the other world leaders' arguments. I find it super condescending they think they know how best to tackle American issues enough to say it publicly. Don't care about your opinions honestly.

Here are the facts: first amendment is very broad, Trump is uniquely terrible, and "big tech" was extremely forgiving of the president but we found out even they have a breaking point. You're not a genius for pointing out it's an imperfect system. But "just legislate better lol" I'm actually kind of offended by how dumb a thing to say that is about another country's complex issue
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
She is right. The fact for example it's not illegal to start shouting racist abuse at someone is absurd.

You start tweeting hate speech in the UK it isn't twitter who may remove you but also you can be arrested.