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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
(Title is from The Progressive Plantation by Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin; it's basically a longer thesis of what I'm about to say, despite arriving at some of these conclusions from the exhaustive school of lived experience.)

If anyone's seen the few reluctant times I've waded into threads regarding disappointing results with the Democratic establishment or outrage at Republican destruction, the one question I always ask people is: "Well, what can we do about it?"

I'm not immersed in the nuances of the American political system such that I know things like how elections in Wyoming are going to go or which bylaws are in effect during some powerplay by Manchin or who the fuck ever. That's for people who actually find the nitty-gritty of the American political system interesting. I do know that problems have solutions though, and what better way to start finding solutions than to ask people who do have better analysis on hand?

Well, so far, the answer I have usually gotten for years is a deafening silence. If someone answers me, it's just "vote."

But I do vote. Indeed, I was part of the populace that turned Georgia blue. But I cannot control the votes in some other state that failed to do their part. I cannot vote multiple times. I can only vote once and where I am. And yet despite showing up to perform my civic duty, my country has rewarded me with: completely dropping the conversation on police brutality, even blaming its existence (and subsequently Black people like myself) for negative results in key races during the last election cycle, instituting harsh voter registration laws, and attempting to overturn Roe v. Wade. And I know, and you know, that had I not individually voted, the same outcome would've happened anyway.

So ultimately what people are telling me, even my own allies, is that I'm screwed either way? Hell, are they even my allies?

I'm slowly beginning to realize that perhaps that whites who ostensibly claim to be liberal/left/progressive, who claim to be on "my side," seem to have somewhat different goals than me. From a glance, they want universal healthcare and higher wages for the poor and middle class, which are good things that I want too, but they only serve to bolster the current status quo back to what it was when their parents were young. I, instead, want to see us start to move away from the systems of white supremacy, colonialism, and capitalism that are causing the underlying financial and healthcare-related anguish that white leftists are fighting against in the first place. And I'm beginning to realize that part of my frustration came from trying to reconcile these goals, because I'm now at the point where I believe that white leftists, who immerse themselves in the knowledge of American politics and sociopolitical theory, may have quietly figured out that, well golly gee, it's in their benefit to maintain these systems so they can uphold their promises to them, that their idea of a better America doesn't actually include considerations of racial issues.

That inevitably means that the fights of Black, Indigenous, and other non-white peoples not only get sidelined, but actively ostracized and harassed from the conversation of white leftist movements because we're a threat to the ultimate goal of financial security within a system that is theoretically set up to benefit them on the basis of skin color, but which doesn't now because those dastardly Republicans have gummed up the works. That if Republicans didn't exist, everything would be fine.

I imagine we have quite a few Vaush fans here who are at least somewhat aware of his disastrous "debate" with Professor Flowers wherein Vaush just critically fails to understand the aims and goals of Black Nationalism from the get-go and instead equates it to Nazism, no better than when conservative shitheads think that socialism is Nazism because "derp socialist is in the name." But this isn't an aberrant result; it's a consistent pattern of behavior from him with regards to the autonomy of both Black and Indigenous peoples, and I imagine it's the same of other white "debate bros" who have come into stardom since Destiny began to blow up. You know, Destiny, the dude we actually banned for being a racist piece of shit.

Part of that is because, honestly, white people in America all experience "white habitus," which is immersion within the overall thrust of white supremacy and the resulting cultural habits and customs that draw from that. Just like there is indeed a Black American culture, there's a white American culture too, and one of the ways that has manifested itself is in the aforementioned debate bro culture which, once the purview of skeptics and alt-right ghouls, has now become a staple of leftist discourse on YouTube and Twitch.

A lot of their shtick is either in rehabilitating recovering white fascists who lost their minds during the height of Gamergate and Trump's presidency, or embarrassing the ones that are still in that mindset. And while there's definitely some value, however marginal it might be to the measurable lives of minorities, in white leftists checking their right-wing brethren on a Twitch stream, we have to remember that the effect of white habitus remains. A lot of these folks who have taken up the mantle were actually in these shitty communities, or knew (or still know) friends and family who are, and thus they were exposed to their same tactics, language, sense of humor, and general way of things- the white culture- and thus have a sense of intimacy and empathy with these people that non-white peoples, naturally, do not. Specifically, as F.D Signifier puts it:

While the ideological basis of these guys on paper is good, the energy, and the rhetoric, and vibe of these guys isn't; the scary reality is that the very homogenous nature of their fanbases who are fresh out of radical hate-filled movements, and the way these people react and respond and behave on these streams, from a distance, when you see a debate bro debating a white supremacist, you can't easily tell who is who.

Sure, it superficially makes sense to ape the tactics of the so-called "rhetorical masters" of the right who have commanded legions of followers if your idea is to start rallying people to leftist ideas. But it makes for a miserable experience of actually trying to work with minorities and deprogram one's self from white supremacist and colonialist modes of thinking when you never actually picked up the tools to do so. Why would you when the online culture you inhabited growing up was swimming in unchecked racism?

Instead what we get is a smug chauvinism, an attitude of saviorism and paternalism, where they know what's best and you need to let them lead without question, and it's an attitude that's as easily redirected onto left-leaning non-whites as it is towards the Nazis whom they simultaneously revile and yet still feel sorry for. For example, if you were aghast at whites telling you, a Black person, that you were literally just as bad as a Trumper if you didn't vote for cop-loving Bloomberg had he gotten the nomination, or if you just happened to catch a stray about Black people being "low-information voters" because they didn't vote for Bernie, the white from Vermont who pretty much just runs away whenever BLM shows up, then you know firsthand that fucking attitude that I'm talking about.

Things for minorities remain sidelined, pushed back, and watered down in part because the white leftists who are the face of these movements either do not want to advocate for them because it might hit their prospective pocket books, or they are just emotionally incapable of deprogramming the white habitus inherent in these movements and themselves to actually be useful to the causes of racial minorities. Whenever they meet a non-white leftist who isn't with their attitude or ideas (or lack thereof- all these people can tell you to do is vote and nothing else; real big-brain stuff), they revert back to a state of defensiveness and personal insult that is no different than the attitude of historical colonists described by Edward Morgan here, as quoted by JohntheDuncan in this video:

If you were a colonist, you knew that your technology was superior to the Indians'. You knew that you were civilized, and they were savages... But your superior technology had proved insufficient to extract anything. The Indians, keeping to themselves, laughed at your superior methods and lived from the land more abundantly and with less labor than you did... And when your own people started deserting in order to live with them, it was too much... So you killed the Indians, tortured them, burned their villages, burned their cornfields. It proved your superiority, in spite of your failures. And you gave similar treatment to any of your own people who succumbed to their savage ways of life. But you still did not grow much corn…

(This quote also lends itself to my utter exhaustion with white leftists' insistence on minorities forgiving their oppressors, and how that insistence on constantly turning the other cheek also ties back into maintaining white supremacy, but that'll be another topic for another day.)

Facile support of minority movements is given by white leftists mired in their sense of white identity up until the point at which those movements inevitably and by necessity advocate for actions and philosophies which threaten white identity, at which point these minority movements and leaders are immediately renounced. On a smaller scale, it is why, even on here, non-white peoples get stern talking-tos for not wanting to tow the line of white leftist agendas by the same people who have admitted they can't even shore up the spine to stop their racist uncle from ranting about "the Mexicans" at Thanksgiving dinner. That uncle might be openly repulsive, but to confront him would be to actually start chipping away at the attitudes and environments that you know you benefit from (everyone just wants to get through dinner in peace), and that's ultimately not worth it. But man, do you get fired up at and ready to oust Black people fed up with Democrats.

To continue on with spinelessness, another way in which white leftist paralysis manifests itself is the leftist who, finally struck with some idea of how miserable the world is, and yet still caught up in their own white chauvinism, their lack of understanding of why things are "backsliding" and people are increasingly not listening to their obviously-perfect ideas, burns themselves out from complete nihilism. They doomscroll themselves into hopelessness and become anxiety-riddled messes. All that energy that could be spent towards solutions gone down the drain. What use is such a person on the ground, that you can't even do what your Black and Indigenous cohorts do, who also suffer from anxiety and depression for obvious reasons, and get out of bed to fight another day? This shit is Tuesday to us. I've said before a few times that it amazes me that some of the people who are so into the awesomeness of leftist liberation are simultaneously some of the most miserable, no-fun-having folks imaginable.

Ultimately, our movement is weak in part because it is spearheaded by whites who do not have the drive, emotional capacity, and humility to make the personal sacrifices necessary to actually ensure something, anything, meaningful in America can take place with regards to leftist coalitions and movements. This is a problem.

But problems have solutions.

Assuming this is a problem to the people I'm addressing, of course. I am well aware that "the left" is ultimately an extremely loose coalition of sometimes-contradictory ideas and factions that roughly just don't like the current and/or past status quos. Indeed, if all you are after is just financial security and free healthcare and you don't actually give a shit about Black and Indigenous autonomy, feel free to either leave or not take any of this too hard.

Going back to Ervin, things need to start at the root, the self. Simply put:

These "white" people must engage in class suicide and race treachery before they can truly be accepted as allies of Black and nationally oppressed workers; the whole idea behind a "white race" is conformity and making them accomplices to mass murder and exploitation. If white people do not want to be saddled with the historical legacy of colonialism, slavery and genocide themselves, then they must rebel against it. So the "whites" must denounce the white identity and its system of privilege and they must struggle to redefine themselves and their relationship with others.

Until white leftists can understand that the way to achieve not just some semblance, some dream, of racial harmony, but a whole sociopolitical system that is more fair and equitable and supportive of personal development, care, and dignity for everyone regardless of race, is by denouncing their ego, chauvinism, and all brands white supremacy, including the ones in themselves and their circles, then we will never get anywhere. Our movement is just online entertainment and we shouldn't expect better.

This means doing things like allowing the space for radical minorities to speak, examining your own defensiveness in the face of such figures, not denigrating minorities for having different ideas and goals, not undermining real-world actions by these groups as stupid, dangerous, unlawful, or disrespectful of a system that doesn't deserve their respect in the first place. Basically, a decent amount of ground can be made if white leftists could just shut the fuck up about these causes, and let minorities simply take the reins to work towards securing their own autonomy and freedom, to make the assumption that we don't need your leadership, we need your solidarity, of which these are two completely different things.

But Ervin insists (and I agree) that this deconstruction must continue with the goal of a complete redefinition of one's own identity, because whiteness is inherently tied to colonialism. It has always been an ill-defined label with conveniently-moving parameters to justify barbarity towards Black and Indigenous peoples. Who are you without whiteness? That's a question for you to struggle with; non-whites cannot define that for you, nor should they be expected to. But just know you cannot simultaneously overturn racial oppression if you still subscribe to the ruling racial class. It makes about as much sense as trying to overturn a monarchy while still declaring yourself King.

And perhaps even more terrifying, while you work on that, is that you actually have to talk to those racist uncles. Instead of ignoring them, or moving away to more liberal areas and putting those rural backwater folks out of mind, you have to actually set aside your outward disgust of them and approach them as people, real people, who can be persuaded to your cause. Nazis do it all the time. More from Ervin:

Some of this reticence to organize in white working class communities, is because they themselves come from privileged upper middle class families, have gone to elite universities and feel estranged not only from the political establishment, but from daily social existence experienced by poor and working people as well. Thus they engage in revolutionary posturing of "speaking for" poor people. It is really the same nonsense I have seen for years: though these white radicals may give lip service of fighting for "workers' rights" and even advocating for the poor, they really are extremely alienated and fearful of working and poor working class people, even if they are white.

But, it is not just these cultural and class differences which frighten them, they also know that going into white working class areas and talking about racism, police brutality, or human rights for Blacks and peoples of color could get them ostracized as "Nigger lovers" and perhaps physically attacked by bigots. There is much racism in the white working class itself.

But this type of hard, "dirty" work has to be done, no matter how unpopular or dangerous, if we are to deal with the effects of racism and fascist indoctrination in white communities. Thus, we have to be part of the people.

White leftists are always aghast that fascism seems to be coming in vogue again, that throngs of their family members and friends are "suddenly" turning into conspiracy-addled cultists. We've already established that whites are not immune to the call of hate so long as they refuse to confront the white habitus that makes that shit as easy to switch on for them as it is. Again, it's that ego and chauvinism; white leftists also simultaneously loathe having to actually talk to and deal with these folks. They partially see Trumpers as beneath them, a different class of white with whom any association with is tantamount to treachery, a sullying of their more acceptable whiteness, an embarrassment of the family name, then Pikachu Face when Nazis swoop in to fill the emotional void they deliberately left because they were too good for the real work.

There needs to be a more active presence of white leftist organizations in more purple and even red areas, to start building up changes in thinking and culture where racism seems impregnable. You can start reaching children, teens, and young adults who are most susceptible to right-wing predation through positive, community-building programs and drives, to show that "leftism" is not some imminent evil, but the empathy and capacity to achieve positive change for those different from yourself. Yes, you might face the possibility of some asshole white running up on you looking for a fight for your efforts. Welcome to actually doing something!

But if you don't know how to start an organization, see if there are any around you to join that fit the bill. Hell, start by joining something (this is mainly aimed at the doomscrollers). Even if it's just getting up on a Saturday to feed the hungry, getting your feet wet with some sort of charitable effort will give you insight on how these organizations function and what it is like to work with them, it'll potentially give you some networking connections, maybe some actual friends you can call, it'll get you physically out of the house and moving about, and you will have done something tangibly good for someone, to see the rewards of your efforts in real time. And all of that is good shit. We need to be better about our time and energy, and reward ourselves with positive outcomes.

Now, if one of the organizations you want to join happens to be one regarding racial liberation: Black justice causes, Land Back, etc., then you should definitely join, but be aware of the trials and tribulations you might face as a white presence in these minority spaces. Deference should be given to the existing leaders, and checks upon one's own privilege should not be met with hostility. If the thought of confronting the reality of these programs is too much, then you might be better off donating money and material resources to these groups.

The biggest hurdle of trying to fight white supremacy is just how much capital that was owned by Black and Indigenous folks has been systemically stolen and destroyed by whites while simultaneously they have established capitalism as the dominant system through which needs must be secured. Raising funds, awareness, and tools and materials is significantly harder for these groups to do than it is for any random white leftist to become showered in hundreds of thousands of dollars on these online streams. So then, start funneling money and materials into these groups, or ask your favorite streamers to do the same, to show some actual commitment to the causes they champion. Bolster up these organizations!

Also, start watching some non-white creators as well. I cannot tell you how embarrassing it was in a thread that was either about or tangentially related to Contrapoints that Kat Blaque was considered some new, up-and-comer, or some people hadn't even heard of her, when she had been my primary exposure to transgender issues and how they intersect with race for about a decade before Contrapoints was even a fucking name to argue about. Seriously, the state of knowledge of a lot of white leftists with regards to non-white creators is abysmal. I imagine your YouTube algorithm at this point is just funneling you a steady stream of whiteness. Break that. Ask for recommendations. The aforementioned F.D Signifier and Kat Blaque are great places to start, along with Khadija Mbowe, T1J, and Saint Andrewism; good beans who are great resources on both Black issues and non-white leftism.

But to quote Saint Andrewism:

Media consumption is not activism.

You need to start doing the internal and external work necessary to actually start making a difference for the Black and Indigenous folks whom you yourself claim you want to help. None of what I, Ervin, Morton, or any of the content creators I've positively mentioned is some permanent indictment of any white leftist and that things cannot begin to change; don't give yourself another opportunity to become paralyzed. I'm pointing out a problem. And problems have solutions. Now is the time to start on recovery, healing, and on making inroads with minority groups to actually see our ideas of a more healthy and equitable future for everyone come into being.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,119
Gentrified Brooklyn
Fantastic post.

Also, start watching some non-white creators as well. I cannot tell you how embarrassing it was in a thread that was either about or tangentially related to Contrapoints that Kat Blaque was considered some new, up-and-comer…

And that's always been a problem for me. It's been insulting to see progressive and revolutionary talk which has been business as usual among minority activist spaces effectively sold back to me as if its these new crazy ideas when, trust, just because you came across it on twitch, bro, doesn't make it new. Its also extremely disheartening to see the ease around race in those circles fall back to #notrueprogressives, pushed to the side because apparently it comes with the combo platter of moving away from capitalism thus no real importance needed, and an expectation that because your avg liberal fails at race they good because the assumption the more left politically you are the racism slider goes down like an RPG.

And the thing is, white progressive popularity is needed; like you pointed out white people talking to other white people is the only way to get out of this societal death spiral. But man, some reflection is needed.
 

Transistor

The Walnut King
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,119
Washington, D.C.
I had the privilege of reading this before Nepenthe publicly posted it. As a white man in the US, I fully admit I have lived a privileged life. This post is 100% on the money and we (myself included) need to do better to support people who have gone through absolute hell due to the whiteness in this country.
 

the-pi-guy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,270
I apologize if I am misunderstanding some of this.

And perhaps even more terrifying, while you work on that, is that you actually have to talk to those racist uncles. Instead of ignoring them, or moving away to more liberal areas and putting those rural backwater folks out of mind, you have to actually set aside your outward disgust of them and approach them as people, real people, who can be persuaded to your cause.
It's always bothered me that the usual wisdom when someone brings up a racist uncle is that they should just cut them out of their life.
I completely get that it's easier mentally, but a lot of people don't have that privilege to just cut racism out of their life and pretend like it's not there. They're still going to spout racist BS, and vote for racist policies regardless if I cut them out.

I have spent entire days arguing online with my uncle that black people matter. I don't know if it ever made a difference for him, but I hope it's made a difference to anyone on the sidelines who isn't as far gone. And I hope it helps to keep my uncle out of a completely racist bubble and try to be an opposing voice.

I don't know if it does, but I know people deserve better, and we're not going to get much better if nothing gets done.
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
And the thing is, white progressive popularity is needed; like you pointed out white people talking to other white people is the only way to get out of this societal death spiral. But man, some reflection is needed.
Indeed. We need people who are definitely in the trenches of more white-centric areas actually, you know, advocating for this stuff and putting our ideals into action instead of leaving it to the rabbit holes of social media platforms where the people who might most need to hear what white leftists have to say won't ever run into them by design. It is harder for many people to act out when they are suddenly faced with a dissenting voice in real life. Even just asking "what do you mean by that?" can be disarming. But they can start bolstering up the courage to speak to these people in their own chatrooms and amongst each other.

This was a great read. Anyway you can share this on another format so I can share with my spouse?
I've got this thing in a Google Doc if that works for you. 👀
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,027
Seattle
Indeed. We need people who are definitely in the trenches of more white-centric areas actually, you know, advocating for this stuff and putting our ideals into action instead of leaving it to the rabbit holes of social media platforms where the people who might most need to hear what white leftists have to say won't ever run into them by design. It is harder for many people to act out when they are suddenly faced with a dissenting voice in real life. Even just asking "what do you mean by that?" can be disarming. But they can start bolstering up the courage to speak to these people in their own chatrooms and amongst each other.


I've got this thing in a Google Doc if that works for you. 👀


That would be great! I was just gonna cut and paste into notes..but Not sure how that would have worked out!
 

Urban Scholar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,603
Florida
Thanks for writing this Nepenthe

Aside for voicing a lot of frustrations we share this really captures what I think a lot of Black folks say but can't maybe.

With this in mind I've also made an effort in the last 5-6 years to shift my news & policitically analysis to those that nearly all Black and otherwise people of color focused.

Again I appreciate the write up
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
It's always bothered me that the usual wisdom when someone brings up a racist uncle is that they should just cut them out of their life.
I completely get that it's easier mentally, but a lot of people don't have that privilege to just cut racism out of their life and pretend like it's not there. They're still going to spout racist BS, and vote for racist policies regardless if I cut them out.

I have spent entire days arguing online with my uncle that black people matter. I don't know if it ever made a difference for him, but I hope it's made a difference to anyone on the sidelines who isn't as far gone. And I hope it helps to keep my uncle out of a completely racist bubble and try to be an opposing voice.

I don't know if it does, but I know people deserve better, and we're not going to get much better if nothing gets done.
Don't get me wrong. I'm mainly framing this in the context of activist and political work. I think arguing with family is something that white people need to do more often though; instead of letting things fester, and allowing these attitudes to permeate, they should be called out. Change has gotta start somewhere. But sometimes there is a limit of energy and time that we have as human beings, especially if you are in a place where the mental anguish of living with an overt racist is overwhelming. Again, you can't do work if there's no energy, and if cutting someone toxic out allows you to free up energy that could be spent on more productive things, then by all means. But we still have to remember that ultimate the fight for racial autonomy HAS to be held in white communities because...that's where the problem is. Coming into the inner city to preach to Black folks about racism can be a little "eh?"

That would be great! I was just gonna cut and paste into notes..but Not sure how that would have worked out!
Awesome. I'll DM you the link!

With this in mind I've also made an effort in the last 5-6 years to shift my news & policitically analysis to those that nearly all Black and otherwise people of color focused.
Same with me. It's so refreshing to, because half the time they're saying stuff that you know you've thought about and experienced before, but like you said there's this attitude of "I can't say that" because of the backlash. Finding camaraderie in people who think similarly to you with regards to your lived experiences is important (which is why I urge y'all to join a reputable leftist organization.)
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,079
Arkansas, USA
Always good to get a kick in the ass from time to time. And I wholeheartedly agree that getting out in the community and sharing some sweat with people that aren't like you is crucially important to building the social infrastructure needed to make positive change. Action is the antidote to despair, less talk and more action will go a long way towards making things better for not only your community but yourself as well.
 

KatieKatsup

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
964
Thank you for this fantastic post. Bookmarking for future re-reading, referencing and sharing.
 

LProtagonist

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,572
As a white guy, this is something I think about fairly often. I'm a teacher. I try to use that position (in a mostly white school with essentially a white-only staff) to put in work. We discuss race, class, and gender in the classroom by learning about the literary theories that go along with them (though I can't say critical race theory any more...) and I try to expose my students to a variety of literature from various sources. I just recently was assigned to teach class on race, literature, and society, where we mostly talk about the Black experience in America. It feels weird coming from me, a white guy, but I try to read as much and pull as much from the research and writings of people of color. This is doubly important considering we're in a pandemic and I can't bring in a guest speaker.

But yeah, a lot of times I sit here and think "Am I just paying lip service to these ideas? What can I do better?", not to mention the fact that education about topics like race is under attack and even in the middle of a blue state I have to worry about not sounding too "political" in order to keep teaching this material without risking backlash from the community.

I know this is important work, especially in a very white community, and I often wonder what more I can do in order to do it right. You've given me a lot more to think about and some insight I can use to help do this work better. Thanks.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,473
Great write up. I'm South Asian myself, but there's a lot for me to consider here.

A lot of the issue does come down to the "brain drain" of educated people leaving their small towns for liberal areas, when staying around could actually turn those areas purple or blue. However, on a case by case basis, there's often valid reasons for leaving, like the white person in question being trans and wanting to escape their transphobic family, etc. You mention this
What use is such a person on the ground, that you can't even do what your Black and Indigenous cohorts do, who also suffer from anxiety and depression for obvious reasons, and get out of bed to fight another day? This shit is Tuesday to us. I've said before a few times that it amazes me that some of the people who are so into the awesomeness of leftist liberation are simultaneously some of the most miserable, no-fun-having folks imaginable.
but having your "enemies" be your literal family is a different level of stress and risk than societal problems. You essentially need them to build up a distinct support system outside their family before they can attempt such a thing. On a societal level, these efforts are needed, but on an individual basis, it can be very hard to actually make happen.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,906
Absolutely amazing post.

As a white dude who helps organize in mostly minority spaces, I'll echo every point. I've learned to shut up, listen, and defer to leaders. There will be some growing pains, it's inevitable. You'll likely slip up and attempt to be part of a conversation that has nothing to do with you, your unconscious biases will show, and you'll be criticized for these things. You just have to work to do better and be better. Take it on the chin and become better.

As always, get out and do work. Don't just put hashtags on your Twitter profile, don't just retweet, get out there and do work.
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,365
Good read. I think more emphasis on the work, instead of the talk, is always needed when

At the end of the day, though, it feels a little optimistic to me - can people really be expected, en masse, to trade away their own privilege to advance a cause that doesn't directly benefit them? Not should they: if you're in favor of an equitable society, they absolutely should. But will they? Comfortable people, particularly in the US, who are able to engage without sacrifice, don't really even put the time and energy in to advance their own means. They vote, they complain on Twitter, and they go to sleep in a comfy bed in a comfy house.

Ultimately, if push comes to shove, I feel most people would rather be a bad ally, and live easy, than a good one, and work hard. To a huge degree. I don't see white people ever dismantling white supremacy, any sooner than I'd see the rich dismantle capitalism or a king dismantle monarchy. How do you change that? Justice and decency are poor motivators compared to material concerns.
 

Deleted member 34725

User-requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,058
Great post!

This definitely goes really well with Fiq's most recent YouTube video that you posted. The liberal and leftist online spaces have been super white and it's good to see some more non-white content creators start to gain larger followings. You do need to actively seek out these creators because YouTube is not going to suggest any of them to you.

Beyond educating yourself from videos, yeah, more white people need to get involved. "Blue No Matter Who" isn't going to solve shit. And yeah, actually spending energy on doing real things like organizing can be great at getting rid of that existential dread so many of us white folks can fall into these days.

Even in actually Leftist spaces, where people openly call themselves socialists and communists, you will find plenty of white people who want to ignore race. "It's all about class solidarity!" is what they'll say. It's bullshit and has to be pushed back on. Creators like Vaush seem very much in this mindset, and even though he has done some commendable things like raise a lot of money for Palestinian orgs, it often feels like he is doing more harm than good. The whole thing with Prof Flowers was just disgusting and embarrassing.
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
Great write up. I'm South Asian myself, but there's a lot for me to consider here.

A lot of the issue does come down to the "brain drain" of educated people leaving their small towns for liberal areas, when staying around could actually turn those areas purple or blue. However, on a case by case basis, there's often valid reasons for leaving, like the white person in question being trans and wanting to escape their transphobic family, etc. You mention this

but having your "enemies" be your literal family is a different level of stress and risk than societal problems. You essentially need them to build up a distinct support system outside their family before they can attempt such a thing. On a societal level, these efforts are needed, but on an individual basis, it can be very hard to actually make happen.
As I said, this is mainly addressed to a context of political activism, and that I'm not here to police people's minute interactions with family or tell them to stay in abusive situations. Ultimately I loathe when allies just proceed to give up before they've even stepped foot into real work because they think "media consumption is activism." They spend so much time looking at negative news and get so caught up in the state of the world that they've decided nothing can be done and they become atmosphere-draining, melodramatic wet blankets who think everyone aside from Bezos and Musk will die horrific deaths from climate change or whatever. Like, you might as well not even call yourself an ally if this is all you can do.

Anything on an individual basis can be hard. I'm not saying that the work isn't hard. I'm saying the work is there, it needs to be done, and dammit we need to start soon.
 
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OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
Good read. I think more emphasis on the work, instead of the talk, is always needed when

At the end of the day, though, it feels a little optimistic to me - can people really be expected, en masse, to trade away their own privilege to advance a cause that doesn't directly benefit them? Not should they: if you're in favor of an equitable society, they absolutely should. But will they? Comfortable people, particularly in the US, who are able to engage without sacrifice, don't really even put the time and energy in to advance their own means. They vote, they complain on Twitter, and they go to sleep in a comfy bed in a comfy house.

Ultimately, if push comes to shove, I feel most people would rather be a bad ally, and live easy, than a good one, and work hard. To a huge degree. I don't see white people ever dismantling white supremacy, any sooner than I'd see the rich dismantle capitalism or a king dismantle monarchy. How do you change that? Justice and decency are poor motivators compared to material concerns.
You change it by just starting.

Start somewhere. Anywhere. Again, I don't even care if it's just at a food bank.

Just get up.

I would also be careful in saying that decolonization doesn't benefit white people, because white supremacy does hurt white people too, in a myriad of ways. The fucking stress and anxiety from being saddled with racist fears, the complete degradation of communal amenities and resources like pools and libraries to keep Black people from accessing them, the stripping of worker and healthcare rights because of the fear of "welfare queens," the countless fucking mass shootings that are mainly killing white people and even children that always seems to catch y'all off guard because "Little Timmy is such a (white) sweetheart, I would've never guessed!" the destruction of the climate as we continue to rape land that isn't even ours in the first place?

Imagine a world where poor and middle class white people's lives could actually improve if they just got over their own fucking racism.

Y'all are getting fucked over by white supremacy too. If that's the angle you need to argue to other white folks, then have at it. Again, self-reflection is going to be a necessary part of this.

But again, if you are not willing to start, if you are already willing to write off even the beginning of change as too optimistic, then what is the point in you even engaging in leftist content anyway? Like, seriously, why are you here? What are you doing? Do something more fun with your time. Play more video games or something.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,863
Metro Detroit
Great post.
Media consumption is not activism.
This is a big pet peeve of mine. If your "activism" is limited to voting every four years and being self righteous on Era you need to step up or shut up.
join an org, knock on doors, etc.
 
Oct 7, 2018
822
USA
Good read. I think more emphasis on the work, instead of the talk, is always needed when

At the end of the day, though, it feels a little optimistic to me - can people really be expected, en masse, to trade away their own privilege to advance a cause that doesn't directly benefit them? Not should they: if you're in favor of an equitable society, they absolutely should. But will they? Comfortable people, particularly in the US, who are able to engage without sacrifice, don't really even put the time and energy in to advance their own means. They vote, they complain on Twitter, and they go to sleep in a comfy bed in a comfy house.

Ultimately, if push comes to shove, I feel most people would rather be a bad ally, and live easy, than a good one, and work hard. To a huge degree. I don't see white people ever dismantling white supremacy, any sooner than I'd see the rich dismantle capitalism or a king dismantle monarchy. How do you change that? Justice and decency are poor motivators compared to material concerns.

Great post that gets directly to the heart of the problem. As long as we have our bread and circuses the vast majority of people will never care enough to actually do anything besides post online.

The only way to ever get people off their asses and have them care enough to actually take action in the real world is for them to experience enough suffering in their own lives to make it worth their time to do so.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
On the subject of voting, the issue is that two options are...maintain the status quo/slow the erosion of rights or dive headfirst into fascism. Two different flavors of (neo)liberalism. The progressive arm of the Democrats is too small to achieve anything more than incrementalism.

It's no wonder that activist groups like the Black Panthers were driven by socialist or communist ideals. It's hard to imagine true racial justice within the confines of a capitalist framework. Though many (online Western) leftist spaces are also overwhelming white, emphasizing class consciousness at the expense of intersectionality and how race fits into the picture.

I would also be careful in saying that decolonization doesn't benefit white people, because white supremacy does hurt white people too, in a myriad of ways. The fucking stress and anxiety from being saddled with racist fears, the complete degradation of communal amenities and resources like pools and libraries to keep Black people from accessing them, the stripping of worker and healthcare rights because of the fear of "welfare queens," the countless fucking mass shootings that are mainly killing white people and even children that always seems to catch y'all off guard because "Little Timmy is such a (white) sweetheart, I would've never guessed!" the destruction of the climate as we continue to rape land that isn't even ours in the first place?

Imagine a world where poor and middle class white people's lives could actually improve if they just got over their own fucking racism.

Y'all are getting fucked over by white supremacy too. If that's the angle you need to argue to other white folks, then have at it. Again, self-reflection is going to be a necessary part of this.
That seems to be the common refrain with these kinds of systems, doesn't it? Whether that's through toxic masculinity neglecting the emotional needs of men and undervaluing their roles in child custody, or TERFs willing to deteriorate the rights of any woman (cis or trans) or queer person that doesn't fit within an arbitrary, continually shrinking set of criteria. Self-destructiveness for the sake of making another group of people's (already difficult) lives worse. So much energy wasted on making the world a more miserable place. Though I guess it's like an MLM where there's a handful of people who benefit, and the rest pay the price (thinking that they do or will benefit from it someday in the future).
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,096
I have little I can immediately say about this, but what I will say is that you have a way with words Nep.

I've been trying to make a more active attempt in my life to view the content created by non-white creator. The last five or so years have been a wake up call to just how filtered my life has been at times due to my upbringing in a very white, rural, and conservative part of the country. I do appreciate the names of creators you've listed at the end of the post; I'm familiar with Kat Blaque and T1J, but not as much the others. Gonna check them out this weekend.

There is a significant non-white LGBTQ and Trans community, and I've been trying to get involved as much as my health permits. I already do get the newsletter from the community, and attend as many events as I can remotely. Hopefully I can get involved in person soon.
 
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OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
On the subject of voting, the issue is that two options are...maintain the status quo/slow the erosion of rights or dive headfirst into fascism. Two different flavors of (neo)liberalism. The progressive arm of the Democrats is too small to achieve anything more than incrementalism.
Voting is a necessary part of the framework of achieving change, don't get me wrong. But we have absolutely no pulse or drive to actually gain a foothold within the political process. The moment we actually make a dent, conservatives are already moving to undermine that progress (or staving off, depending upon the electoral victory), with no seeming pushback. A recent example is the thread where Black people were being purged from election boards in Georgia, and someone said "what can Democrats do about it?" Seriously. The fucking Democrats.

I won't lie, that post was the catalyst for this thread.

It also ties into another frustration I've had with the lack of contingency plans. We know, mathematically, that FPTP voting systems inevitably flip back and forth between the two dominant options. Even if Trump loses in 2024, we know- eventually- some Republican ghoul WILL get back the White House.

We KNOW it's coming.

So what the fuck are we doing right now to stymie their power once they get in?

....

Anyone?

I have little I can immediately say about this, but what I will say is that you have a way with words Nep.

I've been trying to make a more active attempt in my life to view the content created by non-white creator. The last five or so years have been a wake up call to just how filtered my life has been at times due to my upbringing in a very white, rural, and conservative part of the country. I do appreciate the names of creators you've listed at the end of the post; I'm familiar with Kat Blaque and T1J, but not as much the others. Gonna check them out this weekend.

There is a significant non-white LGBTQ and Trans community, and I've been trying to get involved as much as my health permits. I already do get the newsletter from the community, and attend as many events as I can remotely. Hopefully I can get involved in person soon.
You're already doing more than what many others are willing to. Thank you. ❤️
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
It also ties into another frustration I've had with the lack of contingency plans. We know, mathematically, that FPTP voting systems inevitably flip back and forth between the two dominant options. Even if Trump loses in 2024, we know- eventually- some Republican ghoul WILL get back the White House.

We KNOW it's coming.

So what the fuck are we doing right now to stymie their power once they get in?

....

Anyone?
When they go low, we go high. It's important that we reach out across the aisle and work together with the Republican party to heal the divisions in this country. /s Absolute clown shoes.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
I've had conversations with my Dad about how white privilege affects us and the inherent inequalities of the system many times and I do think I've had some impact on how he see things, granted it's a frustrating process and I feel like it's often me making the same points and my Dad trying to side step it. That said he's the most conservative member of my immediate family and I generally haven't seen a reason to bring things up with my siblings or Mom. I've also called out bullshit my more conservative uncles have spewed but I interact with them less and haven't had that many opportunities to do so. I have let my parents know that if we're spending time with them at something like a thanksgiving dinner and they say something I find flat out wrong I will call them out on it and it'll probably make things uncomfortable for them and I apologized to them in advance for that, but I haven't gotten an opportunity to do so. They're very much in the camp of wealthier individuals who side with the republicans because it helps their bottom line and try to rationalize the rest of the shit, but that obviously doesn't change the fact that they're hurting others as a direct consequence of their actions and choices.

One thing that's definitely been frustrating is talking to my Dad about how he has in many ways been born privileged and how even if a lot of what our family has now is a result of hard work that him and my Mom did, the fact that they're hard work was able to pay off and even that many opportunities they had to work hard are a result of being born into a privileged situation and just because my own situation is probably more privileged than theirs was doesn't change the fact that compared to many others doesn't change the fact that he was still better off than a lot of other people. This is doubly frustrating because my parents were both born and raised in South Africa, and it should go without saying what the racial situation and opportunity gap there was like.

On that last note, there have also been a number of times where I feel like he points out the current corruption in the South African government and I point out that that's still tied to the exploitation of apartheid even if we're decades since it ended and just because laws change and become more equal doesn't suddenly fix the problems in inherent power structures if other inequalities like disparities in education and wealth levels aren't also addressed.

That said I really should be doing more. I know I'm bad with interacting with new people (in no small part due to my aspergers), but I also know I probably use this as an excuse to not do more. I also really probably should volunteer more for activist organizations and while there are some obstacles there as well, I know deep down the biggest thing is just getting myself to do it. It's very easy to use my work and other factors as an excuse to justify and rationalize why I don't do more, but I know there are a lot of people who have no choice but to engage with these causes on top of having just as many of the responsibilities and setbacks I face
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Voting is a necessary part of the framework of achieving change, don't get me wrong. But we have absolutely no pulse or drive to actually gain a foothold within the political process. The moment we actually make a dent, conservatives are already moving to undermine that progress (or staving off, depending upon the electoral victory), with no seeming pushback. A recent example is the thread where Black people were being purged from election boards in Georgia, and someone said "what can Democrats do about it?" Seriously. The fucking Democrats.

I won't lie, that post was the catalyst for this thread.

It also ties into another frustration I've had with the lack of contingency plans. We know, mathematically, that FPTP voting systems inevitably flip back and forth between the two dominant options. Even if Trump loses in 2024, we know- eventually- some Republican ghoul WILL get back the White House.

We KNOW it's coming.

So what the fuck are we doing right now to stymie their power once they get in?

....

Anyone?


You're already doing more than what many others are willing to. Thank you. ❤️
Honestly, and I know you are speaking generally, but specifically I think you should run for public office. Past voting, getting into government and institutions of power is one of the most effective things an individual can do to help bring change. And I think you'd be good at it.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Good read. I'm not a leftist myself so I don't always come to the same conclusions but on race and racism I find much agreement.

As for your question about what do we do. I will ask you a question. Do you wish to maintain our democracy? If so your options are limited and would involve more "vote, organize and fight" mantras. If you wish to bring the whole system down? There are a lot of options. I do caution however that the outcomes may be of the more unintended variety.

The only other option in my eyes is...less civil. As I have read history I also believe it to be the only option once facsism has taken this much root. As I live among the WWC and know them quite well "talking them out if it" isn't a very viable approach. Many of these people are too far gone. They don't exist in the world you or I inhibit and there is not amount of reaching to get through to them. They are lost to us. Not the diagnosis anyone wants to hear...but it is why many a (actual)progressive white doesn't want to talk about it I think. We know where this is headed. These people are forgone in their depravity.

As to fixing the issues of white supremacy and racism I couldn't agree more. After 2016 I did some soul searching and just decided to shut up and listen. I still have a lot more learning to do and I always welcome new viewpoints from angles I cannot see. Personally, I'm still going to fight but in my eyes my fellow whites are lost causes. Some are certainly savable but a vast swathe of them are celebrating their depravity and hate. Their salvation will not be in redemption.

If you have any other recommendations for non white content creators and viewpoints I'm all ears. Kat Blaque was a huge boom to my growth as a person and to seeing more than just what was in front of me.
 
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Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
Honestly I think some challenges with achieving change is that it's incredibly hard to get people to give up parts of society that benefit them personally and even if you can reach some statistically I don't know if it's possible to reach enough to matter. Of course, this does NOT mean we shouldn't try, not knowing doesn't mean that it isn't possible any more than it means that it is, and the numbers of white people who need to understand and accept the sacrifices needed will shrink as demographics change (though of course there will be people who try to fight this by extending the title of whiteness)

From a purely practical standpoint I honestly think the easiest way to make the proper changes would be to have politicians do it on the sly without drawing attention to the fact that they're doing so, but on the other hand there's not a good way to know who you could trust to handle it like that in the world of politics, especially since many would love to claim they're doing exactly that while they absolutely aren't and it's really not possible to take people at their word, and especially among minority communities there are many reasons to distrust people who claim to be taking that approach, which kind of causes a catch-22 of sorts

And of course politics shouldn't be the only arena on which this is fought. Like I hope people here who are in the position of being involved in hiring or other similar processes will keep in mind the inherent racial disparities in not only those processes themselves, but even just the nature of obtaining qualifications. People who are inherently getting less opportunities will end up being less "qualified" as a result, which is why it's important to start somewhere
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,270
It also ties into another frustration I've had with the lack of contingency plans. We know, mathematically, that FPTP voting systems inevitably flip back and forth between the two dominant options. Even if Trump loses in 2024, we know- eventually- some Republican ghoul WILL get back the White House.

We KNOW it's coming.

So what the fuck are we doing right now to stymie their power once they get in?

....

Anyone?

For voting plans, I've been harping on local races now because that's a massive blindspot for the left. It's always "POTUS this, Manchin that" but nobody keeps up with their school board, or their state's Ag Commission, or the local charity orgs.

Take free community college. People lamenting all over the Internet that Manchin killed it. But Mississippi has free community college. Mississippi

I mean, when Mississippi can afford free community college, then all states can afford it. No feds involved at all. And that kind of thing is safe from the tempests of the White House. Mississippi ain't getting rid of their free community college.

Tons of things can be resolved locally. Upset that Sessions' DOJ stopped tracking white supremacists? Go elect a Doug Jones or a Jim Hood to be your local AG (they both went after klansmen). Etc...

People drive me nuts with this. As you say, they love to depression-read stories about shitty mayors or school board members or state legislators, but damned if they'll go vote in those races
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,208
"Who are you without whiteness?" is so elegantly succinct. And sitting on that question for a while can be a guide for those wondering what further actions they can perform. Like, is imagining that question painful? The things that come to mind that would be lost are things that non-white people don't have because of whiteness--so a starting point would be to rectify how whiteness impacts whatever thing it is that comes as a first answer to the question, however small or specific.

Nepenthe, is "white habitus" your concept or is it something one of the scholars you cited discusses? I'd like to read more about it if you feel like it.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,536
Honestly, and I know you are speaking generally, but specifically I think you should run for public office. Past voting, getting into government and institutions of power is one of the most effective things an individual can do to help bring change. And I think you'd be good at it.

Not everyone can be a good candidate for getting into office. We've seen qualified people fail to get votes before in public eye. I often wonder if there's something being overlooked that the majority who aren't inclined or able to get those positions can do beyond votes.
 

Stabi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,603
France / san francisco
It's a great post.

You list many things and I'm sure everyone has something in there that applies to them.

I'm guilty of being unproductive on any political aspect. I feel like I'm sharing the ideas but i just don't act on it, i don't find the motivation, the time, the energy, whatever... i don't like that yet i dont change.

The content creator as well. It's just impressive how much YouTube algos are just spouting the same content... I really recommend to actively go and look for minorities lead channel of whatever you're into to diversify your feed. There's so much that was never recommended to me.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
solid OP, hate seeing vaush in there but it is what it is

read black & indigenous feminism and especially abolition - you can't reform this.
a great start is is the new jim crow (points out just how awful things are, useful as analysis but not beyond that), then dr angela davis' "are prisons obsolete?", which is succinct and powerful. currently working on mariame kaba's "we do this till we free us" and as with all her work, it's fantastic
 
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OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
Honestly, and I know you are speaking generally, but specifically I think you should run for public office. Past voting, getting into government and institutions of power is one of the most effective things an individual can do to help bring change. And I think you'd be good at it.
You flatter me, but I know any potential political career is ripe for being railroaded by my Era profile. Hell even this topic alone is probably damning. I can see establishment Democrats now clutching pearls over the link between white identity and colonialism. I'm quite radical in that regard, and I know the system will seek to beat that out of me; the master's tools and such. I am taking my own advice though; I've been sent the orientation videos of a local Black Liberation movement that seems right up my alley!

Nepenthe, is "white habitus" your concept or is it something one of the scholars you cited discusses? I'd like to read more about it if you feel like it.
Not my concept at all! I first heard the term from one of F.D Signifier's videos who in turn got it from Eduardo Bonillo-Silva, who is best known for writing the book "Racism Without Racists," which is a good primer on how institutional racism functions outside of the intent of white individuals. I will admit though I might be stretching the term a little bit, as Bonillo-Silva mainly defines it as how white culture manifests specifically through the exclusion of Black people, and not simply the idea of a "white culture" at large (although in the context of this thread being about white leftist exclusion of Black and Indigenous autonomous movements, I would still say it certainly fits.)
 

Kotto

CEO of Traphouse Networks
Member
Nov 3, 2017
4,466
I read half on the Google Doc before you posted but knew already the rest of the analysis was gonna be some fire. Amazing actually. Love it!

Instead what we get is a smug chauvinism, an attitude of saviorism and paternalism, where they know what's best and you need to let them lead without question, and it's an attitude that's as easily redirected onto left-leaning non-whites as it is towards the Nazis whom they simultaneously revile and yet still feel sorry for. For example, if you were aghast at whites telling you, a Black person, that you were literally just as bad as a Trumper if you didn't vote for cop-loving Bloomberg had he gotten the nomination, or if you just happened to catch a stray about Black people being "low-information voters" because they didn't vote for Bernie, the white from Vermont who pretty much just runs away whenever BLM shows up, then you know firsthand that fucking attitude that I'm talking about.

Things for minorities remain sidelined, pushed back, and watered down in part because the white leftists who are the face of these movements either do not want to advocate for them because it might hit their prospective pocket books, or they are just emotionally incapable of deprogramming the white habitus inherent in these movements and themselves to actually be useful to the causes of racial minorities. Whenever they meet a non-white leftist who isn't with their attitude or ideas (or lack thereof- all these people can tell you to do is vote and nothing else; real big-brain stuff), they revert back to a state of defensiveness and personal insult that is no different than the attitude of historical colonists described by Edward Morgan here, as quoted by JohntheDuncan in this video:

This piece speaks about such a common thing I see on here and in eavesdropped conversations with white people. There is rarely energy against white people that have anti-Black, transphobic, homophobic, etc. views whilst there is always something to be said for views held by non-white people and its mainly due to forced to come out of the comfort zone and fighting against the racist dad or the homophobic sister.

And it mostly doesn't help at all when all of these views held by the masses of white people are, "if you are against x you are for y" and it makes for an infuriating engagement to be apart of.

Also, nice props you did for Saint Andrewism! I love basically everything he puts out and where he sources topics.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
As for your question about what do we do. I will ask you a question. Do you wish to maintain our democracy? If so your options are limited and would involve more "vote, organize and fight" mantras. If you wish to bring the whole system down? There are a lot of options. I do caution however that the outcomes may be of the more unintended variety.
I think the answer to that depends upon how you're framing democracy. Certainly, I like the idea of democracy, of the people deciding how they're going to organize and live. Do I like America's? Is this shit even a fucking democracy, a system wherein I can be in the majority and still lose, a system that is constantly antagonistic to my right to vote at all, a system that more easily bends to the whims of the rich, a system where my politicians always break their promises without actually suffering consequences? I have no love nor deference for any of these institutions, and should they be unable to stand up to the moral imperative that is giving Native Americans their fucking land back and allowing them, as well Black, Hispanic, and other minorities the autonomy to control their lives and well-being, so be it.

I, as a Black person, owe nothing to America. America, on the other hand, owes me and it's colonized everything. The fact that I even care about any of this in the face of this country's barbarity is a testament of character, I think.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,971
What scares me is that because of the many flaws in our current political system it almost engenders very safe "progressivism" and as we become more divided and extremes become more prevalent that safe (ineffective) progressive politician becomes the only perceivable Avenue to holding back the onslaught of conservatism (let alone racism, fascism, etc.). I live in a state where the majority of people are conservative and even many of the Democratic people aren't really all that progressive, so admittedly it is draining emotionally. Granted, I'm a white made so I feel bad talking about being frustrated or drained when ultimately it's largely things that don't affect me outside of making me sad or disappointed for all of the people that deserve better from America in 2021.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,208
You flatter me, but I know any potential political career is ripe for being railroaded by my Era profile. Hell even this topic alone is probably damning. I can see establishment Democrats now clutching pearls over the link between white identity and colonialism. I'm quite radical in that regard, and I know the system will seek to beat that out of me; the master's tools and such. I am taking my own advice though; I've been sent the orientation videos of a local Black Liberation movement that seems right up my alley!


Not my concept at all! I first heard the term from one of F.D Signifier's videos who in turn got it from Eduardo Bonillo-Silva, who is best known for writing the book "Racism Without Racists," which is a good primer on how institutional racism functions outside of the intent of white individuals. I will admit though I might be stretching the term a little bit, as Bonillo-Silva mainly defines it as how white culture manifests specifically through the exclusion of Black people, and not simply the idea of a "white culture" at large (although in the context of this thread being about white leftist exclusion of Black and Indigenous autonomous movements, I would still say it certainly fits.)

Awesome, thank you for the helpful recommendations. I'm excited to check in with them some more.
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
It's always bothered me that the usual wisdom when someone brings up a racist uncle is that they should just cut them out of their life.
I completely get that it's easier mentally, but a lot of people don't have that privilege to just cut racism out of their life and pretend like it's not there. They're still going to spout racist BS, and vote for racist policies regardless if I cut them out.

I have spent entire days arguing online with my uncle that black people matter. I don't know if it ever made a difference for him, but I hope it's made a difference to anyone on the sidelines who isn't as far gone. And I hope it helps to keep my uncle out of a completely racist bubble and try to be an opposing voice.

I don't know if it does, but I know people deserve better, and we're not going to get much better if nothing gets done.

It depends, really. I'll be honest, I understand the idea and sentiment, but as someone who has grown up in rural ass Tennessee and still lives close to it and has to interact with it frequently, you can kind of tell when people talk about these things in the abstract and those who have really tried to go and do the deed. I won't say it's pointless, and I guess there is a possibility you can make one person on the 'sidelines' question their belief, but the fact that you don't really know who is on that sideline to begin with probably means you're just screaming into the void. There kind of has to come a point where you have to re-evaluate what you're doing and if it's really worthwhile. I don't necessarily think you should just cut people out of your life wily-nily, but I think there does come a point where you have to recognize that a person or people are lost forever or at least until their world is turned upside down in a way that they have to re-evaluate their life entirely, and there's better ways for you to engage with others than just taking days at a time to argue with someone online and hoping that somebody somewhere somehow sees it and is swayed.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I think the answer to that depends upon how you're framing democracy. Certainly, I like the idea of democracy, of the people deciding how they're going to organize and live. Do I like America's? Is this shit even a fucking democracy, a system wherein I can be in the majority and still lose, a system that is constantly antagonistic to my right to vote at all, a system that more easily bends to the whims of the rich, a system where my politicians always break their promises without actually suffering consequences? I have no love nor deference for any of these institutions, and should they be unable to stand up to the moral imperative that is giving Native Americans their fucking land back and allowing them, as well Black, Hispanic, and other minorities the autonomy to control their lives and well-being, so be it.

I, as a Black person, owe nothing to America. America, on the other hand, owes me and it's colonized everything. The fact that I even care about any of this in the face of this country's barbarity is a testament of character, I think.
I mean you're not wrong. I don't agree with Malcolm X's conclusions but I get why he came to them, and given our current situation I entertain the idea that maybe he was correct. I lament saying that as I deeply believe in a democratic, multiracial and egalitarian society. I believe in the America of our dreams; the one we praise and love but don't actually live in. I think that idea is possible; the work required to get to that ideal will be immense but I think we have to try. I think our world would be worse off if this idea were to wither on the vine.

I know I make these statements to a black and trans individual who has a hell of a lot more at risk then I do. My life won't ever be questioned or in danger as yours is and that very fact bothers me; that you must life in a different world than I do. That is why I cannot give up the fight. As for what you or others like you do; I cannot say other than I hope you chose to stay and help. If you don't? If you find this corroded, eroded and corrupted system that many of you were forced into and denied an equal say in too much to bother? I understand. Much like the above, I lament it but I understand and the choice is yours to make. I can only continue the fight however I can.

You are absolutely correct. You neither owe me nor America anything at all. The past 5 years has made me appreciate how much damn patience ya'll have. I already want to deck these fucks in the face. How black folks haven't managed to start riots on the daily is a testament to your collective patience and better nature.

My people lose their damn minds over even the slightest provocation.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
To continue on with spinelessness, another way in which white leftist paralysis manifests itself is the leftist who, finally struck with some idea of how miserable the world is, and yet still caught up in their own white chauvinism, their lack of understanding of why things are "backsliding" and people are increasingly not listening to their obviously-perfect ideas, burns themselves out from complete nihilism.
Wrt this? Thank you

A little hardship and suddenly everything's doomed for everyone forever when most of y'all ain't seen real hardship in your life. Where as bad as it is now, it was worse 40 years ago and they managed to push things forwards and make things better, why do you think that's impossible for us?
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,731
Great post.

This is a big pet peeve of mine. If your "activism" is limited to voting every four years and being self righteous on Era you need to step up or shut up.
join an org, knock on doors, etc.
Weird, I've never seen users on Era that spend all their time trying to be morally superior to their peers. That would be the silliest thing I could imagine.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
I mean you're not wrong. I don't agree with Malcolm X's conclusions but I get why he came to them, and given our current situation I entertain the idea that maybe he was correct. I lament saying that as I deeply believe in a democratic, multiracial and egalitarian society. I believe in the America of our dreams; the one we praise and love but don't actually live in. I think that idea is possible; the work required to get to that ideal will be immense but I think we have to try. I think our world would be worse off if this idea were to wither on the vine.
Malcolm X's conclusions remain correct so long as white supremacy, and by extension white racial identity and America's caste system in general, continue to be maintained even by leftists, that so long as there remains this (once-previously) unracialized class that stands apart from, and above, other classes which ostensibly are racialized, then yeah, Black people either need to A.) start forcing the Democratic party to seriously make its issues foundational principles of their platform or just withhold votes, or B.) Get the fuck out of America. This song-and-dance of using us to maintain power only to discard us when we become inconvenient or demand accountability (until the next election of course) is ultimately nothing more than the political example of the hubris I'm talking about.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Malcolm X's conclusions remain correct so long as white supremacy, and by extension white racial identity and America's caste system in general, continue to be maintained even by leftists, that so long as there remains this (once-previously) unracialized class that stands apart from, and above, other classes which ostensibly are racialized, then yeah, Black people either need to A.) start forcing the Democratic party to seriously make its issues foundational principles of their platform or just withhold votes, or B.) Get the fuck out of America. This song-and-dance of using us to maintain power only to discard us when we become inconvenient or demand accountability (until the next election of course) is ultimately nothing more than the political example of the hubris I'm talking about.
Well B might be the only option soon considering Republicans are openly embracing fascism and seem on a sure fire road to take control of the country forever.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
This was a fantastic read.

And while I'm not white, I'm still a non-minority person and can extrapolate a lot of what you are saying to our own issues in the south.