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KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
EA's idea to have one engine for all project is actually good one, the problem was and probably still is with overestimating their studios capabilities.
Engine engineers are rare, probably even the rarest specialty in games industry, so its understandable that most studios have a problem with adapting Frostbite technology, because they did not have or do not have a workforce to do it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,358
I feel like as a developer and then-DICE head, Patrick Soderlund should have known better than to push for their worldwide studios to all switch to Frostbite knowing its capabilities and limitations. On paper it makes business sense and looks pretty in a Powerpoint presentation but he's a very smart man and while it could be a good investment in the short term, the persistent issues devs have run into should have made them pivot from that strategy early and took the short term hit. Even more confused as to what could have convinced Aaron Flynn that moving to Frostbite was good for the studio.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Amy Hennig is perfectly familiar with the concept of adapting an "engine" to suit particular needs. Any research into the development of Soul Reaver makes this clear (Digital Foundry Retro itself has a hell of an episode on it)

For that reason I find it prudent to take "foundational" as read – maybe would have pressed for Unreal with 1313 as a baseline to look at, but was politically railroaded into reinventing the wheel for this far less fit-for-purpose piece of work because optics.
I mean I was not at all trying to insult Amy Hennig at all - I am not sure why people keep reading that into my post? I was just reading what the quote said and try and put it in perspective - because it sounds a lot less damning or terrible than the headline sounds like.

Maybe because it so unspecific of a quote.
 

Sqrt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,880
Yeah DICE left the development of the engine after bf4 was done.

Just wanna get this out before people blame DICE.
I don't think anyone should blame DICE for anything. Frostbite has clearly been a success for their projects. However, there might be an argument that forcing all EA studios to use the engine was perhaps too forced and rushed.
 

SeanBoocock

Senior Engineer @ Epic Games
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
248
Austin, Texas
The characterization of Frostbite as a poor engine for anything beyond Battlefield is unfair and overblown. The sorts of things that Amy Hennig discusses building with her team live outside the domain of an "engine" and would be the responsibility of a game team to implement. How hard it is to build large features and extend an engine do bear on architectural decisions, but it is difficult to comment on that in generalities, and impossible without firsthand experience.

I worked on Frostbite games as an engineer in the first wave of titles at EA that were using it outside DICE - Need for Speed: The Run, Army of Two: Devil's Cartel, and Command & Conquer - and as the Frostbite team was starting up as a separate entity. Stefan Boberg's tweet that the engine was "expert friendly" was certainly true then, due to the engine being "opionated" and the lack of developer support. All of the tools to build a wide variety of games were there, but you needed relatively more engineering support to use them to their full potential than you would with more established engines like Unreal.

By the time I left EA in 2015, Frostbite felt mature with a robust internal developer community and a lot of shared resources for any game team that was new to the technology. Having spent 3.5 years working on Unreal Engine 4, I miss certain aspects of Frostbite. It was comparatively easier to write correct and performant networked code. The animation integration was awkward, but far more powerful than what UE4 provides natively. The engine was "leaner" and easier (for me at least) to optimize and reason about.

Games exist at the intersection of art and software, and when things go wrong technology makes for a convenient scapegoat. I don't think Amy Hennig is doing that here but the way it's been reported erases a lot of the nuance.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
No not a correction. This was straight from the original post: Designing the large maps of Andromeda's planets became a struggle on Frostbite, where the maximum size of a map was initially 100 by 100 kilometers. The Andromeda team needed their maps to be way bigger than that.
The original idea they had in mind wasn't feasible and that was the main reason behind the struggle because they came to that conclusion too late in production. TO place all of that on the engine is as misguided as it is naive. Of course the growing pains of switching to Frostbite contributed but other factors contributed just as if not more.
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,807
I suspect Capcom will try to use RE Engine for the vast majority of their AAA stuff. I don't know if they intend to make any other large scale stuff, other than Monster Hunter. In that case, I see them maintaining MT framework for projects of very small or very large scale. I mean, Mega Man 11 and Monster Hunter World were essentially built on the same technology. However, much like with EA and Frostbite, you saw the upper limits of what MT Framework was capable of with Monster Hunter.

At least Dragon's Dogma 2 will probably happen. Capcom has basically been allowing Itsuno to do whatever he wants to do. The CEO seems to have a lot of trust in him.
I expect small scale projects on the level of MM, Ace Attorney and Sengoku Basara to continue to use MT Framework, though.
 

Brinksman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,179
I mean I was not at all trying to insult Amy Hennig at all - I am not sure why people keep reading that into my post? I was just reading what the quote said and try and put it in perspective - because it sounds a lot less damning or terrible than the headline sounds like.

Maybe because it so unspecific of a quote.

My point wasn't to impugn you for insulting her or anything of the kind; not a personal matter in the slightest. It's simply to point towards some credentials and help read into what she may be communicating between the lines. We need to bear in mind the premise that this individual led teams who hacked the life out of second-hand "engines"/w/e to deliver on multiple bizarre and unprecedented selling points back in the 1990s!
 

Taker34

QA Tester
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,122
building stone people
To me it seems weird how the engine is being used internally to share technology, advancements etc. so they don't have "to start from scratch", just to hear reports how the Andromeda team is struggling with basic things, despite the existence of DA: Inquisition which was developed years ago. There's a foundation and previous experience ready to be shared for future projects, right?
Is the engine like a scapegoat or am I missing something? On the other hand several EA devs commented on the supposedly "poor capabilities" Frostbite engine so I seriously don't get it.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
Eh, I've had the same experience here. Easiest way to kill a discussion is to post an informed response. Next thread it's the same people you replied to saying the same ol' bullshit. Actual expert opinion is dismissed.
That is fair. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
To me it seems weird how the engine is being used internally to share technology, advancements etc. so they don't have "to start from scratch", just to hear reports how the Andromeda team is struggling with basic things, despite the existence of DA: Inquisition which was developed years ago. There's a foundation and previous experience ready to be shared for future projects, right?
Is the engine like a scapegoat or am I missing something? On the other hand several EA devs commented on the supposedly "poor capabilities" Frostbite engine so I seriously don't get it.

Based on the breadth of developers who have made public statements about the difficulty of using the engine, it is fair to infer the support staff for it just isn't up to snuff. At some point, EA should have made it a major internal focus to iterate on the accessibility and fundamental capabilities of Frostbite based on the earliest of these issues cropping up. When Frostbite is the backbone of your multi-billion dollar AAA gaming assembly line and staff working on a variety of projects report similar obstructions to productivity, something needs to change if you want to maintain budgets and schedules.

We all see how that turned out.
 

Neilg

Member
Nov 16, 2017
711
The Andromeda team needed their maps to be way bigger than that.

They didnt need it, they refused to design their game around the technical limitations they had and didnt enough R&D into feasibility studies. Bad management is at fault, not the engine.
How many years had they been working with the idea of 100km+ procedural maps before changing plan to do it as they did? That's the kind of shit that should be figured out before you even have a full team on board. Had they started early designing to the scope it ended up with, it may have been a much more focused game - and certainly would've been cheaper to develop.

When everyone is finding working with the engine challenging, across all studios that use it, choosing to do something that's never been done before and may not actually be possible is not smart. That's unfiltered ideas people refusing to compromise on 'their vision'. Giving EA every last bit of the blame for closing down studios that wasted hundreds of millions of dollars because of hubris on the part of the directors & studio managers is somewhat misguided.
 
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Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,247
Midgar, With Love
I still remember Mike Laidlaw and the gang hoping that their work with Frostbite in Inquisition would benefit Andromeda's team in a big way.
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
File this under

"Game development is way more difficult/challenging than most fans give it credit for"

It's amazing that we get some of the games we end up getting.

Thanks to the devs working tirelessly to make my number one hobby a reality.
 

Thizzles

Banned
Feb 9, 2019
315
They didnt need, they refused to design their game around the technical limitations they had and didnt enough R&D into feasibility studies. Bad management is at fault, not the engine.
How many years had they been working with the idea of 100km+ procedural maps before changing plan to do it as they did? That's the kind of shit that should be figured out before you even have a full team on board. Had they started early designing to the scope it ended up with, it may have been a much more focused game - and certainly would've been cheaper to develop.
Well clearly they shouldn't have been mandated to use that engine then which is the whole point of the thread. Why use that engine if you can't achieve the vision of the game? bottom line is EA forcing all studios to use that engine wasn't smart
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
They didnt need, they refused to design their game around the technical limitations they had and didnt enough R&D into feasibility studies. Bad management, not the engine.

I don't think that is an entirely fair assessment. Mass Effect Andromeda was purposely designed to follow in the footsteps of the original Mass Effect and invoke a feeling of discovery and large scale space exploration. The original game ran on Unreal Engine 3 and managed to have some large (some barren, some dense) environments. So when the time came to design a game with environments that matched or exceeded the scale of something made over a decade earlier, the team likely ran into issues with what the engine could do. Obviously at this point, they redesigned big swaths of Frostbite to accommodate the design that a lot of the fanbase had been hoping for a return to.

Also, if the scuttlebutt surrounding Andromeda is to be believed, the bulk of the final product was finished in just under two years. The visual quantity and quality of real estate proportional to that short timetable is impressive (at least to me, lol).
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Well clearly they shouldn't have been mandated to use that engine then which is the whole point of the thread. Why use that engine if you can't achieve the vision of the game? bottom line is EA forcing all studios to use that engine wasn't smart
They did end up making that vision of the game. they found it wasn't fun and scrapped it after putting alot of work into, so much that Austin and Edmonton had to step in and make the game in 18 months, cus the original vision didn't work. There was also apparently alot of tension between Montreal and Edmonton, with Montreal thinking that Edmonton were being too interfering (which kinda makes me wonder if they didn't take the DAI's help fully over Frostbite if there was that much animosity going on between the senior staff). It's alot more complicated then Frostbite.
 

Neilg

Member
Nov 16, 2017
711
I don't think that is an entirely fair assessment.

That version never saw the light of day - they wasted 3 years trying to figure out how to do it. even a modest team of 50 employees has a yearly burn rate of $10m+
it was 100% hubris on the part of management - refusing to compromise, re-design some areas and ask for help long before they were in trouble.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
They never made that version of the game - they wasted 3 years trying to figure out how to do it. even a modest team of 50 employees has a burn rate of $10m a year. the other studio had to reign it in.
it was 100% hubris on the part of management - refusing to compromise, re-design some areas and ask for help long before they were in trouble.
I was under the impression they did make procedural planets and kept spending along time trying to make it fun but found that it was just not that fun especially compared to scripted content so they scrapped? (tbh this situation actually makes it worse cus they technically wasted even more resources on an idea they knew wasn't working)
Edit: Just going to point in case it sounds like I'm blaming the devs, putting more resources into something you already put alot of resources in cus you don't want to have wasted resources is a really easy mistake to make, one I've done plenty of times, so it's completely understandble, especially as they hadn't actually shipped a full game under BioWare yet. Sunk cost fallacy is a real pain in the ass to get through. If anything the problem appears to be that EA were too hands off. Just saying that that doesn't make the problem the engine either
 

Jasper

Member
Mar 21, 2018
740
Netherlands
The characterization of Frostbite as a poor engine for anything beyond Battlefield is unfair and overblown. The sorts of things that Amy Hennig discusses building with her team live outside the domain of an "engine" and would be the responsibility of a game team to implement. How hard it is to build large features and extend an engine do bear on architectural decisions, but it is difficult to comment on that in generalities, and impossible without firsthand experience.

I worked on Frostbite games as an engineer in the first wave of titles at EA that were using it outside DICE - Need for Speed: The Run, Army of Two: Devil's Cartel, and Command & Conquer - and as the Frostbite team was starting up as a separate entity. Stefan Boberg's tweet that the engine was "expert friendly" was certainly true then, due to the engine being "opionated" and the lack of developer support. All of the tools to build a wide variety of games were there, but you needed relatively more engineering support to use them to their full potential than you would with more established engines like Unreal.

By the time I left EA in 2015, Frostbite felt mature with a robust internal developer community and a lot of shared resources for any game team that was new to the technology. Having spent 3.5 years working on Unreal Engine 4, I miss certain aspects of Frostbite. It was comparatively easier to write correct and performant networked code. The animation integration was awkward, but far more powerful than what UE4 provides natively. The engine was "leaner" and easier (for me at least) to optimize and reason about.

Games exist at the intersection of art and software, and when things go wrong technology makes for a convenient scapegoat. I don't think Amy Hennig is doing that here but the way it's been reported erases a lot of the nuance.

This is a very informative post, thanks for sharing! Of course, the masses who need their scapegoat are probably going to completely ignore it.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
The only issue I see from Amy's interviews is EA being cautious and being scared away by a chaotic dev environment and not understanding its chaotic nature.
 

Neilg

Member
Nov 16, 2017
711
Just going to point in case it sounds like I'm blaming the devs, putting more resources into something you already put alot of resources in cus you don't want to have wasted resources is a really easy mistake to make, one I've done plenty of times, so it's completely understandble,


It is in no way understandable to have a studio lead managing 100+ people making this kind of mistake.

I am aware of how it happens and that everyone has done it, but thats a level of seniority where you are expected to have left it behind you.
Being fired and having your studio either shut down (if they feel you managed the team so poorly it cannot be salvaged) or gutted is a totally normal response by an investor who gave you massive, massive sums of money which was then wasted.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
12,238
My take from this is that Visceral couldnt get proeficient enough with Frostbite before time and money ran out, so EA pulled the cord.

Whether EA is in the wrong from 'forcing' Frostbite on its studios or Frostbite not being good enough (which I seriously doubt, people at EA arent idiots), we will never know for sure.
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,150
The characterization of Frostbite as a poor engine for anything beyond Battlefield is unfair and overblown. The sorts of things that Amy Hennig discusses building with her team live outside the domain of an "engine" and would be the responsibility of a game team to implement. How hard it is to build large features and extend an engine do bear on architectural decisions, but it is difficult to comment on that in generalities, and impossible without firsthand experience.

I worked on Frostbite games as an engineer in the first wave of titles at EA that were using it outside DICE - Need for Speed: The Run, Army of Two: Devil's Cartel, and Command & Conquer - and as the Frostbite team was starting up as a separate entity. Stefan Boberg's tweet that the engine was "expert friendly" was certainly true then, due to the engine being "opionated" and the lack of developer support. All of the tools to build a wide variety of games were there, but you needed relatively more engineering support to use them to their full potential than you would with more established engines like Unreal.

By the time I left EA in 2015, Frostbite felt mature with a robust internal developer community and a lot of shared resources for any game team that was new to the technology. Having spent 3.5 years working on Unreal Engine 4, I miss certain aspects of Frostbite. It was comparatively easier to write correct and performant networked code. The animation integration was awkward, but far more powerful than what UE4 provides natively. The engine was "leaner" and easier (for me at least) to optimize and reason about.

Games exist at the intersection of art and software, and when things go wrong technology makes for a convenient scapegoat. I don't think Amy Hennig is doing that here but the way it's been reported erases a lot of the nuance.

Thank you for this great post. I wish there was more in the way of highlighting posts like this on Era, then just the verified tag.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Edit: Wrong quote. Apologies!

Meant to quote this:

It is in no way understandable to have a studio lead managing 100+ people making this kind of mistake.
I am aware of how it happens and that everyone has done it, but thats a level of seniority where you are expected to have left it behind you.

At that level of production is it really possible to make that call? I mean we're talking about millions of dollars into production and then going to EA Corporate with a "hey, this isn't working so we're going to have to scrap everything and start new." I can't imagine that pans out any differently than the way it did. Meanwhile if you stay the course there's always the chance you can pull it off. The only people benefitting from the former is EA Corporate and their investors, who will still just see it as a net loss rather than cutting off hemorrhaging early.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I think most of us figured this is the source of a lot of Anthem's issues. Good to get confirmation so we no longer have to worry.

I assume all the loading times and many of the technical issues are problems that wouldn't exist if they were using UE4 or Source 2. Fuckin sucks. And I understand EA's vision here; it's just that the engine's tools aren't good enough to do that sort of broad application across all of your studios.
 

MrMephistoX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
Glad to see more reports coming to light about how Frostbite is destroying EA's studios. This is a lost console generation for them purely because of their insistence to make sure everybody is on the same engine, which was not built to handle a myriad of games.

Great example of how poor decisions by senior leadership can really hamstring a company.


That's why I really really hope Anthem does well. Knowing that Andromeda sucked due to these types of engine troubles for basic things shouldn't kill such a great studio who killed it last gen on UE3.
 

Neilg

Member
Nov 16, 2017
711
At that level of production is it really possible to make that call? I mean we're talking about millions of dollars into production and then going to EA Corporate with a "hey, this isn't working so we're going to have to scrap everything and start new."

The point is, better management wouldn't have needed to scrap everything. they'd have started with a skeleton crew doing feasibility tests, they'd have had other teams working on isolated areas which could be re-used in case of a re-design. You can and should plan carefully when dealing with huge technical challenges in production, and be honest with your investors so they dont pull out when you have a slight hiccup.

You go to your investors and let them know what you're trying to do, the investment cost to figure it out, why it's worth trying, what everyone else is doing alongside it etc, you dont go in saying 'we can definitely 100% do this, it's going to be great'
problem is, the person responsible for that almost certainly did think they could pull it off and it would vindicate them.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
It pains me we never got to see Amy Henning's Star Wars game and now more than ever now that I'm reading it was further along than expected.

Would it have killed EA if they had let Visceral use UE4? From the sound of it Frostbite was the biggest reason why the game kept floundering in production!

Where's Amy now anyways? Is she still at EA?
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
I was under the impression they did make procedural planets and kept spending along time trying to make it fun but found that it was just not that fun especially compared to scripted content so they scrapped? (tbh this situation actually makes it worse cus they technically wasted even more resources on an idea they knew wasn't working)
Edit: Just going to point in case it sounds like I'm blaming the devs, putting more resources into something you already put alot of resources in cus you don't want to have wasted resources is a really easy mistake to make, one I've done plenty of times, so it's completely understandble, especially as they hadn't actually shipped a full game under BioWare yet. Sunk cost fallacy is a real pain in the ass to get through. If anything the problem appears to be that EA were too hands off. Just saying that that doesn't make the problem the engine either

The creative process isn't really linear. This is why I think it isn't an entirely fair assessment. A lot of games that we love began life as something entirely different, died, and were "fixed" in short time frames prior to release. I imagine the senior staff and management at EA and do everything in their power to facilitate their teams. At some point, people are making what they think are correct choices, but years later turn out to be mistakes. It takes the public moments to react and form their opinions, not knowing the minutia of what led these outcomes.

It's why I tell people to not immediately buy games. With how complicated they are now, they are more than likely going to need patches and various quality of life additions. When they spend upwards of sixty dollars on a product that doesn't magically just work, they are allowed to be upset and critical. However, they often use it as an excuse to attack developers and their efforts to meet the astronomical expectations of consumers and corporate taskmasters. Instead, consumers should make use of the nearly limitless amount of resources that can inform them of a quality of a game before they spend a dime. Them piling on developers isn't going to help the situation.
 

Deleted member 5864

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,725
Streaming and inventory issues are things that are obviously still giving Bioware problems after 3 games and more than a decade's worth of man hours put into them, so either the tools are immensely averse to improvements on those particular areas, or there are even bigger issues going around in those teams. I see the benefit for EA to persist with the engine, but 3 games in a row Bioware has struggled with it. At what point does it become a meaningless pursuit that is actually killing your games?
 
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Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
The point is, better management wouldn't have needed to scrap everything. they'd have started with a skeleton crew doing feasibility tests, they'd have had other teams working on isolated areas which could be re-used in case of a re-design. You can and should plan carefully when dealing with huge technical challenges in production, and be honest with your investors so they dont pull out when you have a slight hiccup.

You go to your investors and let them know what you're trying to do, the investment cost to figure it out, why it's worth trying, what everyone else is doing alongside it etc, you dont go in saying 'we can definitely 100% do this, it's going to be great'
problem is, the person responsible for that almost certainly did think they could pull it off and it would vindicate them.

Doesn't this assume that the Manager has a pre-existing notion of what the difficulty could be ahead of time? The impression that I'm getting is that a lot of these projects started production withing very close proximity, time wise. Add to that, that Hennig was an outside hire who may not have heard just what the hurdles could be and was very well likely told that she would have the necessary support system there.

There's a lot of differing impressions about working with the engine... enough so that I find it reasonable and perhaps even likely that Hennig had no reason to believe that her team would be facing the level of challenge they ended up getting in terms of getting these elements together in time. I feel like in Star Wars case it was more likely a perfect storm of factors rather than poor management.
 

Neilg

Member
Nov 16, 2017
711
Doesn't this assume that the Manager has a pre-existing notion of what the difficulty could be ahead of time?

No, it assumes that as a director they'll speak with the people in management roles and figure it out.
as you say, expecting someone to know what might go wrong as a new hire is unrealistic. expecting them to figure it out before it does is not.
 

BloodHound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,995
The characterization of Frostbite as a poor engine for anything beyond Battlefield is unfair and overblown. The sorts of things that Amy Hennig discusses building with her team live outside the domain of an "engine" and would be the responsibility of a game team to implement. How hard it is to build large features and extend an engine do bear on architectural decisions, but it is difficult to comment on that in generalities, and impossible without firsthand experience.

I worked on Frostbite games as an engineer in the first wave of titles at EA that were using it outside DICE - Need for Speed: The Run, Army of Two: Devil's Cartel, and Command & Conquer - and as the Frostbite team was starting up as a separate entity. Stefan Boberg's tweet that the engine was "expert friendly" was certainly true then, due to the engine being "opionated" and the lack of developer support. All of the tools to build a wide variety of games were there, but you needed relatively more engineering support to use them to their full potential than you would with more established engines like Unreal.

By the time I left EA in 2015, Frostbite felt mature with a robust internal developer community and a lot of shared resources for any game team that was new to the technology. Having spent 3.5 years working on Unreal Engine 4, I miss certain aspects of Frostbite. It was comparatively easier to write correct and performant networked code. The animation integration was awkward, but far more powerful than what UE4 provides natively. The engine was "leaner" and easier (for me at least) to optimize and reason about.

Games exist at the intersection of art and software, and when things go wrong technology makes for a convenient scapegoat. I don't think Amy Hennig is doing that here but the way it's been reported erases a lot of the nuance.

This post will go largely ignored on this forum.
 

Deleted member 51691

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
17,834
EA is probably losing more money from the trouble with using Frostbite for anything other than Battlefield than it would by letting its developers use the engine that works best for them or just biting the bullet and using middleware like Unreal Engine 4.
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,451
The characterization of Frostbite as a poor engine for anything beyond Battlefield is unfair and overblown. The sorts of things that Amy Hennig discusses building with her team live outside the domain of an "engine" and would be the responsibility of a game team to implement. How hard it is to build large features and extend an engine do bear on architectural decisions, but it is difficult to comment on that in generalities, and impossible without firsthand experience.

I worked on Frostbite games as an engineer in the first wave of titles at EA that were using it outside DICE - Need for Speed: The Run, Army of Two: Devil's Cartel, and Command & Conquer - and as the Frostbite team was starting up as a separate entity. Stefan Boberg's tweet that the engine was "expert friendly" was certainly true then, due to the engine being "opionated" and the lack of developer support. All of the tools to build a wide variety of games were there, but you needed relatively more engineering support to use them to their full potential than you would with more established engines like Unreal.

By the time I left EA in 2015, Frostbite felt mature with a robust internal developer community and a lot of shared resources for any game team that was new to the technology. Having spent 3.5 years working on Unreal Engine 4, I miss certain aspects of Frostbite. It was comparatively easier to write correct and performant networked code. The animation integration was awkward, but far more powerful than what UE4 provides natively. The engine was "leaner" and easier (for me at least) to optimize and reason about.

Games exist at the intersection of art and software, and when things go wrong technology makes for a convenient scapegoat. I don't think Amy Hennig is doing that here but the way it's been reported erases a lot of the nuance.

very nice insight
 

Kadath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
621
I am reading this again a second time and its seems further bizarre to me as a slight against frostbite or something, because they would need to code this kind of thing anyway even if they had their own custom engine, right?

Like, or was there some already made 3rd-person-star-wars-game-engine-that-exactly-fits-amy-hennig's-vision-for-graphics-and-gameplay in existence?

If you read between the lines the problem is that their team simply didn't have the technical expertise to dig down in system programming.

It's like you have a great team of writers and game designers, who are handed a 3D engine like Frostbite and somehow have to make it work despite none of them can actually do some lower level coding.

But if anything it's a management mess. "Hey, we got a great time of writers, and then we got a great graphic engine. Let's do 1 + 1!"
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
Games exist at the intersection of art and software, and when things go wrong technology makes for a convenient scapegoat. I don't think Amy Hennig is doing that here but the way it's been reported erases a lot of the nuance.
This so very much.

The technology may be a single reason (among hundreds of additional, compounding reasons) why we never saw much footage or why for creative it may have been a difficult project as much of the work is waiting until the team can get to the real iterative gameplay work, but I don't think Amy is necessarily portraying it as a reason why the project failed, more as in just one of the challenges of building that particular game.

Remember, she even specifically mentioned the project was doing "fine":
And look, I mean all I can say is the project was going along fine.

...

I wish people could have seen more of it because it was a lot farther along than people ever got a glimpse of. And it was good, you know? But it just didn't make sense in EA's business plan, ultimately.
The engine may have been reason why the game would have taken longer to build than if they had another engine to choose from (but that may for example have resulted in worse performance), but in no way does she explicitly mention that it was a reason why the project failed. Just that it was one specific challenge, and one the she may or may not have expected coming from a different studio.


If you read between the lines the problem is that their team simply didn't have the technical expertise to dig down in system programming.
That's not really correct either, as she specifically mentions that they did end building those systems and that it was work that would eventually benefit other teams. Not to mention Visceral certainly had engine-level programmers in their studio and had previously worked with their own internal engines. In fact, it's quite frustrating to always hear that people assume issue have to be because of lack of expertise/skill in a given studio, because the reality is so different, but people just like to assume the worst of other people they do not know.

The more accurate issue is, that it puts a massive strain on the creative design part as you can't really iterate on systems you can't play, so you are left theorycrafting and waiting for those tools to built, before you can actually start iterating top-notch gameplay. Gameplay design doesn't live on papers, it's really about getting things playable and iterating them and when you are waiting for tools for that to be possible, it can be frustrating. And often studios can't wait for the time for these tools to be built before moving all of the production staff into their project, these issues are/were quite common before some publishers like Ubisoft have adopted a more scalable way of handling staff between projects and ensuring lengthy pre-production times with a small team.
 
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Gitaroo

Member
Nov 3, 2017
7,976
wonder what Bioware Edmonton think of Frostbite after Anthem and Dragon Age. Those mid level loading screen cannot be good.
 

RogerL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
606
Frostbite will definitely be one of the defining failures of this console generation. How many fucking games/studios has it killed at this point? It's a rolling disaster for everything outside of Battlefield, and even there BFV was a unfinished mess at launch.

Games of this complexity, world simulators, often contains more bugs than games with simpler scope.

On the other hand, how many games have been released using Frostbite? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite_(game_engine)
Note: Several of these are 60Hz multiplayer titles
Battlefield 4 Mantle
Need for Speed Rivals
Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare Third Person Shooter
Dragon Age: Inquisition Third person RPG, cut scenes with your unique character
Battlefield Hardline
Rory McIlroy PGA Tour
Need for Speed blending live action and in game property (your car)
Star Wars Battlefront
using PhysicalBasedRendering, PSVR, first DX12 game on XBox One https://wccftech.com/star-wars-battlefront-dx12-title-xbox/
Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare 2
Mirror's Edge Catalyst
FIFA 17
Battlefield 1
Mass Effect: Andromeda
Madden NFL 18
FIFA 18
Need for Speed Payback
Star Wars Battlefront II
Need for Speed: Edge
Madden NFL 19
FIFA 19
Battlefield V first game using DXR and DLSS
Anthem


I think most of us figured this is the source of a lot of Anthem's issues. Good to get confirmation so we no longer have to worry.

I assume all the loading times and many of the technical issues are problems that wouldn't exist if they were using UE4 or Source 2. Fuckin sucks. And I understand EA's vision here; it's just that the engine's tools aren't good enough to do that sort of broad application across all of your studios.

I think the loading times is due to a new feature, loading map from server - there are claims that the world can be rebuilt in moments.
"Freeplay full of world events and variants, in a world we can change at a moments notice"
https://twitter.com/GambleMike/status/1092218521927307264

If that is what they are doing, could it even be done on UE4 or Source 2?
 

Stardestroyer

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,819
The point is, better management wouldn't have needed to scrap everything. they'd have started with a skeleton crew doing feasibility tests, they'd have had other teams working on isolated areas which could be re-used in case of a re-design. You can and should plan carefully when dealing with huge technical challenges in production, and be honest with your investors so they dont pull out when you have a slight hiccup.

You go to your investors and let them know what you're trying to do, the investment cost to figure it out, why it's worth trying, what everyone else is doing alongside it etc, you dont go in saying 'we can definitely 100% do this, it's going to be great'
problem is, the person responsible for that almost certainly did think they could pull it off and it would vindicate them.
No, better management is accepting the lose and crapping it.

The concept of sunk cost is important. You shouldn't keep investing money into something just because you already invested into it. Losing 10 mill is cheaper than 20+ million.

People need to stop romanticizing games they have never seen or played. Don't put a game on a pedestal if you haven't played it.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
It is in no way understandable to have a studio lead managing 100+ people making this kind of mistake.

I am aware of how it happens and that everyone has done it, but thats a level of seniority where you are expected to have left it behind you.
Being fired and having your studio either shut down (if they feel you managed the team so poorly it cannot be salvaged) or gutted is a totally normal response by an investor who gave you massive, massive sums of money which was then wasted.
EA is part of management, and part of the people making the decisions, they aren't just investors but part of the decision process. Yes, it a studio should control this but EA also knew that Montreal hadn't shipped a full game before and weren't as experienced as Edmonton and Austin. Considering that Visceral suffered what seemed similar problems of the major issues being discovered too late in the process, it's something that EA needs to look at. This had major ramifications. In BioWare major crunch and projects like Anthem, DA4 and SWTOR being delayed, and while most had their jobs merged into EA Motive, some were laid off from Montreal. Visceral shut down completely. I'm not saying there weren't senior devs that dropped the ball, but when the problem happens at more than one studio, the publisher has to have some of the blame for being too hands off. Real people suffered real consequences from this mistakes, it's not unreasonable to expect EA to take a closer look and learn from previous mistakes. Afterall, it was EA in the first place that got the team that hadn't shipped a game yet to lead the project in the first place with MEA. And Visceral had difficulties in the past and making a Star Wars game is even more difficult. While the Montreal team should have had staff that should have seen the problem with the Procedural Planets, EA also knew the past histories of these teams and should have known that there could be problems.
The creative process isn't really linear. This is why I think it isn't an entirely fair assessment. A lot of games that we love began life as something entirely different, died, and were "fixed" in short time frames prior to release. I imagine the senior staff and management at EA and do everything in their power to facilitate their teams. At some point, people are making what they think are correct choices, but years later turn out to be mistakes. It takes the public moments to react and form their opinions, not knowing the minutia of what led these outcomes.

It's why I tell people to not immediately buy games. With how complicated they are now, they are more than likely going to need patches and various quality of life additions. When they spend upwards of sixty dollars on a product that doesn't magically just work, they are allowed to be upset and critical. However, they often use it as an excuse to attack developers and their efforts to meet the astronomical expectations of consumers and corporate taskmasters. Instead, consumers should make use of the nearly limitless amount of resources that can inform them of a quality of a game before they spend a dime. Them piling on developers isn't going to help the situation.
I'm going to point out I did enjoy Mass Effect Andromeda, and I know that game dev is complicated and things can change massively along the way but the problems with MEA development and the decision to spend alot of resources on procedural planets, did lead to from what I understand alot of crunch at BioWare and other projects were delayed and but not least some did lose their jobs in the merging (I think most were saved but not all). These are real, pretty severe consequences and I think it's reasonable to expect better project management that does not end up putting these stresses on people. Which is why we should perhaps focus on those outcomes, rather than the quality of the game, as I'd argue it's in the cost of people were the real problems lie rather than how "good" the game is for consumer. I'm not piling on the game but I do think there was a failure in management at the Montreal level, at the top of BioWare, at EA, that ended up affecting their employees in really negative ways. And I think it's reasonable to expect them to learn and improve from those mistakes.
 
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