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TinfoilHatsROn

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
This forum is on aggregate absolutely insufferable on any topic related to money and I'm just going to sound off on it.

Of course it's better to have money and be miserable than to be poor and miserable, but it's not a zero sum game. The unwillingness to empathize or even admit that people with money also have problems is disingenuous as fuck, and even worse this mentality is being confused with progressiveness - that punching up the social hierarchy is always ok no matter the circumstance. No, it's really not.

You think that being able to hire a good therapist solves depression? I've got news. You think being rich means you can easily quit your job or easily pivot into something more enjoyable? Yeah right. You think being rich shields you from health issues? Relationship issues? Addiction issues? Family turmoil? No, no, no and no. Money helps, but it cannot and will not dig you out of issues so easily.

I've went from being middle class to what many of you would consider "rich" in the past several years. Let me tell you, without reservation, unequivocally, I am FAR more miserable today than I was 2 years ago. FAR. FAR. FAR. It's not even close. I've tried to brute force my way out of it with money and it doesn't work. I repeat, it doesn't work.

Post at me with memes of the guy wiping his tears with money or whatever because I won't feel anything right? I'll just buy something nice and all the problems will go away right? This is insanity.
Are you denying that, on average, those with access to medication, therapy, and other (expensive) aids can at the very least deal with depression better than those without access to such tools? Of course depression can't be 'solved' just like that, after all, everyone is unique. Some will require the specific amounts of certain brands to help them feel 'normal' while others will see no benefit from any sort of medication at all. Everyone who suffers is different. I don't see any denial that rich people have such problems, just that rich people will have much better means of solving some those problems because of their resources. And it's not like you aren't arguing that either so...

Money helps immensely, and as someone on both parts of the fence, money has objectively made my life much, much better. Money doesn't dig you out of that hole but it certainly gives you a step-ladder. It literally solved the issues of, well, Maslows hierarchy of needs. Though that model isn't very good sense people can have problems in all 5 areas and realize it even if it isn't a priority but whatever.

Does money automatically make your addiction go away? No, but having your parents put you in rehab is better than being a junkie on the street knocking on car windows and begging for change so you can continue to drink yourself to death. Does money solve health issues? No, but it does provide a way to go to Canada to seek treatment at a private facility while the same kind of health issue would make a poor person drown in debt to the point that suicide is a better option then paying off such financial blackmail. Does money automatically solve satisfaction among the workplace? No, it might not but pivoting to a new job is certainly easier with connections and finances that can support one going back to college. At least much more than the single black mom working at McD and the 7-11, commuting back and forth and working herself to death in some admittedly pretty shitty workplaces.

This isn't also mentioning that poor folks are suffering disproportionately from things like obesity because they make poor decisions in their diet as they lack the knowledge and financial freedom to properly assess their own health. You won't see that poor black single mom down at the gym, that's for certain.





Regardless this whole discussion is worthless since that is NOT what the hedge fund manager in the article is even talking about. I'm wondering if you even read it because it states that his consumerist lifestyle is what is holding him back from taking a job opportunity (that was offered to him mind you) and also his shitty trophy wife apparently. That and his dissatisfaction comes from the fact that it is a Hostile Work Environment, with snakes backstabbing each other to climb the corporate ladder. It's literally in the OP's quote. This isn't a 'rich people have emotional problems as well' article, it's a 'capitalism creates morons who will become attached to the lifestyle and never ever give it up because of The American DreamTM and thus will eat each other' article.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
I don't know, don't get me wrong, I don't feel bad for them but instead of getting angry at the privileged, get angry at what society expects of us.

Let me dig up a few quotes.

Jeff Hammerbacher, who worked at the Facebook early on:

"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads"

Juxtapose that to:

"So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living."
-Buckminster Fuller

and

"Man needs, for his happiness, not only the enjoyment of this or that, but hope and enterprise and change."
-Bertrand Russel
I'm having the craziest deja vu right now. I could have sworn I've seen this thread and this exact post before.

entremet - have you posted this before????
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,918
Great post. What you said makes way too much sense in retrospect. It must be convenient to virtue signal from a place of self interest and still score points online for being progressive. A lot of the inconsistencies and moral confusion can be explained this way. Yeah it's probably true.

They won't listen. That "100k is rich" thread was sufficiently long that I'm wholly convinced that a substantial amount of people who make comments like the one you're describing are physically incapable of actual empathy. They can selectively pantomime that feeling well enough on liberal issues to be viewed as sincere among an audience of similar peers but the mask is threadbare and always proves wanting in threads like these. For those people, I view any advocacy for broader social issues as self-interest thinly veiled by a veneer of virtue signalling. Naturally, they're also the loudest when it comes to condemning others for not being considerate enough.


Considering the sickening lack of basic empathy these two posts display, I'm going to assume this is just as example of psychological projection.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Ah, the mask falls:
For those people, I view any advocacy for broader social issues as self-interest thinly veiled by a veneer of virtue signalling.
Because people can't truly care about the poor people unless they care equally about the rich. Anyone who's saying so is just self interested and virtue signalling instead of considering everyone like a real good person should.
Txsk8kq2L1YYi4dfh_aEQGgU_L5h_kagLgZqw0mSaz0.png
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,696
My dude, you just proved my point about how you're displaying an astounding lack of empathy and understanding.

And English apparently. Do you know what the words you say even mean?
Ah, the mask falls:

Because people can't truly care about the poor people unless they care equally about the rich. Anyone who's saying so is just self interested and virtue signalling instead of considering everyone like a real good person should.
Txsk8kq2L1YYi4dfh_aEQGgU_L5h_kagLgZqw0mSaz0.png

Who said anything about equal except for you? Arguing just to argue.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,847
This forum is on aggregate absolutely insufferable on any topic related to money and I'm just going to sound off on it.

Of course it's better to have money and be miserable than to be poor and miserable, but it's not a zero sum game. The unwillingness to empathize or even admit that people with money also have problems is disingenuous as fuck, and even worse this mentality is being confused with progressiveness - that punching up the social hierarchy is always ok no matter the circumstance. No, it's really not.

You think that being able to hire a good therapist solves depression? I've got news. You think being rich means you can easily quit your job or easily pivot into something more enjoyable? Yeah right. You think being rich shields you from health issues? Relationship issues? Addiction issues? Family turmoil? No, no, no and no. Money helps, but it cannot and will not dig you out of issues so easily.

I've went from being middle class to what many of you would consider "rich" in the past several years. Let me tell you, without reservation, unequivocally, I am FAR more miserable today than I was 2 years ago. FAR. FAR. FAR. It's not even close. I've tried to brute force my way out of it with money and it doesn't work. I repeat, it doesn't work.

Post at me with memes of the guy wiping his tears with money or whatever because I won't feel anything right? I'll just buy something nice and all the problems will go away right? This is insanity.
Are you living so vicariously and vapidly through your expenses that you've created artificial stress on yourself to keep up with the Joneses? Did you purposefully marry a SO who you knew prior to engagement cherished you more for your monetary value rather than your well-being? Were you one of many who sought out a particular profession or line of work largely for its wealth opportunities, and not because of fulfillment?

Because more than anything that's what people are getting agitated about: the glossing over of culpability for the choices these people made and passing them off as if the path they walked was and still is the only viable option they have.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Who said anything about equal except for you? Arguing just to argue.
Then I don't understand what your beef is. When I, say, push for Medicare 4 All, it's 4 All, which includes you. When I say, capitalism makes everyone miserable, that includes you.

I'm already well aware of this. I back things like a 70%+ marginal tax rate not just because it's right, but because I know these people don't actually need that much money to lead fulfilling lives (because I know going from 5 million to 6 million doesn't make them 20% happier) and their habitual hoarding is just making everyone unhappy in the long run, including themselves.

The social relation of people to their money and what they contribute to society through labor is, fundamentally, capitalism. I'm not trying to turn this into an anti-cap thing. It is literally why capitalism is bad. Poor people are miserable. Rich people are still miserable. Capitalist economies don't sustain you emotionally, Marx said this 200 years ago!

Are you mad that I'm not also giving you personal attention?

I'll do that when NYT starts writing articles about the non-racist working class in NY, which they never seem to pay attention to. Otherwise, you can enter the line at the back. There's a whole bunch of people who need more help than you who're not getting articles written about them.
 
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LProtagonist

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,589
"There's no magic salary at which a bad job becomes good."

If I remember correctly, it's like, 75K. After that more money doesn't do anything to your overall happiness, apparently. I'd love to make 75K right now, working my ass off as a teacher. Yeah I guess I make a difference and my job has meaning, but I'm sure as hell not paid like a professional who has a master's degree.
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,696
Are you living so vicariously and vapidly through your expenses that you've created artificial stress on yourself to keep up with the Joneses? Did you purposefully marry a SO who you knew prior to engagement cherished you more for your monetary value rather than your well-being? Were you one of many who sought out a particular profession or line of work largely for its wealth opportunities, and not because of fulfillment?

Because more than anything that's what people are getting agitated about: the glossing over of culpability for the choices these people made and passing them off as if the path they walked was and still is the only viable option they have.

This would be a better point if it were possible to have an honest discussion about those who are struggling and the life choices they have made.

Then I don't understand what your beef is. When I, say, push for Medicare 4 All, it's 4 All, which includes you. When I say, capitalism makes everyone miserable, that includes you.

Well my beef is you state that I believe the struggles of the poor are equal to the struggles of the rich, which I went out of my way to hedge in the post you quoted. I don't think that. I'm pushing back on the notion that money equals happiness which we actually both believe in. Whether that's a product of capitalism I'm not sure yet, but we're basically on the same page.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
683
This would be a better point if it were possible to have an honest discussion about those who are struggling and the life choices they have made.
Is this not the reason why people are posting the money napkin gif and making sarcastic comments?

These are people who have made choices, whose problem is it that their friends are shallow? Whose problem is it that their workplace is filled with disingenuous people? Whose problem is it that they're working 80 hr weeks for 6 figures?

These people have made choices, and while it will be depressing for them to pivot to the non profit sector or to create their own business and have to start low--it is an option that they have that most of us dont. Almost everyone here is confused about the overall goal of this article.

We know a system which focuses on making and hoarding as much wealth as possible has pitfalls like it's literally even in multi thousand year texts that the pursuit of wealth will never give true satisfaction.

Is it poor people that hike up drug prices? Is it poor people who are responsible for anthropogenic warming? Is it poor people that are fighting against healthcare as a human right? Is it poor people who caused the financial crisis and subsequent recessions?

The wealthy are hated and it is not like they have done nothing to earn that hatred.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,325
New York
Thanks for reading! lol.

The article never is framed to elicit sympathy. The point is that even those that have "made" it aren't necessarily happier. And the rest of the article details what psychological needs in combination do provide work satisfaction.

But I'd argue it's not the "same way". Being unhappy because you're not following your vocational calling and being unhappy because you can't pay your bills and are about to be homeless are two completely different levels.

And every time I think about how much better life would be if I could quit my job and paint or sing I remember that I like electricity and my family utilizing indoor plumbing and I snap right outta it.

Is this not the reason why people are posting the money napkin gif and making sarcastic comments?

These are people who have made choices, whose problem is it that their friends are shallow? Whose problem is it that their workplace is filled with disingenuous people? Whose problem is it that they're working 80 hr weeks for 6 figures?

These people have made choices, and while it will be depressing for them to pivot to the non profit sector or to create their own business and have to start low--it is an option that they have that most of us dont. Almost everyone here is confused about the overall goal of this article.

We know a system which focuses on making and hoarding as much wealth as possible has pitfalls like it's literally even in multi thousand year texts that the pursuit of wealth will never give true satisfaction.

Is it poor people that hike up drug prices? Is it poor people who are responsible for anthropogenic warming? Is it poor people that are fighting against healthcare as a human right? Is it poor people who caused the financial crisis and subsequent recessions?

The wealthy are hated and it is not like they have done nothing to earn that hatred.

I just wanna make sure I'm understanding the generalizations: Some random making six figures deserves to be hated?
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Well my beef is you state that I believe the struggles of the poor are equal to the struggles of the rich, which I went out of my way to hedge in the post you quoted. I don't think that. I'm pushing back on the notion that money equals happiness which we actually both believe in. Whether that's a product of capitalism I'm not sure yet, but we're basically on the same page.
It's because Mercurial dropped the "all lives matter" of class politics, because he still isn't over the "100k is rich" thread yet.

They won't listen. That "100k is rich" thread was sufficiently long that I'm wholly convinced that a substantial amount of people who make comments like the one you're describing are physically incapable of actual empathy.
He actually accused poor people bitter about being poor that they're incapable of empathy. Where in his words is the empathy for poor people? Do you think people are just posting the moneytearswiping.gif just for laughs and that they're all wealthy and comfortable?

I remember that I like electricity and my family utilizing indoor plumbing and I snap right outta it.

^This is the reality for the vast majority of Americans. They need to work just to keep the lights on, just to feed their family bulk food from Costco. Where is the empathy for the poor from the wealthy? The mere audacity of the article's premise is offensive to someone living under median wage.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,918
And English apparently. Do you know what the words you say even mean?
.

Yes.

Look man, obviously money doesn't magically fix mental or physical illness. I have an older cousin who is fairly rich, but whose son died before I was born due to MS – Trust me, I understand that no amount of money is ever going to fix that pain.

However, privilege is still real. What about the single parent who has to work 80+ hours a week just to make ends meet and whose benefits are going to get cut, and is never going to be able to get any help for their mental illness – often due to economic and social policies out of their control? Often issues that can be directly linked to the active and purposeful dismantling of social programs and hoarding of wealth by the uber rich.

I mean, sure, there's a pitiful irony to this, like a poor Trump supporter who is propagating a system that ultimately hurts them and makes them unhappy, but at the same time, you're robbing them of their agency and infantilizing them by denying them culpability.

Sure, money for therapy or medicine doesn't magically fix problems, but at the same time, that doesn't absolve someone for exploiting and robbing other people from seeking that same help. And it's certainly a lack of empathy when one doesn't understand where this animosity comes from.
 
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Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
User banned (4 days): personal attacks
They won't listen. That "100k is rich" thread was sufficiently long that I'm wholly convinced that a substantial amount of people who make comments like the one you're describing are physically incapable of actual empathy. They can selectively pantomime that feeling well enough on liberal issues to be viewed as sincere among an audience of similar peers but the mask is threadbare and always proves wanting in threads like these. For those people, I view any advocacy for broader social issues as self-interest thinly veiled by a veneer of virtue signalling. Naturally, they're also the loudest when it comes to condemning others for not being considerate enough.

Thread's like these are wonderful for finding the sociopaths of Resetera. But, I'm not convinced though that they're all sociopaths incapable of empathy and trying to self-promote; rather many of them are unaware hypocrites: The equivalent of the Trumpers, Evangelicals, and right-wing facists, except they happen to fall on the liberal side of issues. They fall for the same fallacies and terrible habits that these groups do, and would commit mass atrocities if allowed, but they happen to be on the right-side of history for some issues, so people avoid in-fighting and giving them flack.

Samoyed in particular seems to be particularly psychotic....
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,483
This isn't a 'rich people have emotional problems as well' article, it's a 'capitalism creates morons who will become attached to the lifestyle and never ever give it up because of The American DreamTM and thus will eat each other' article.
I agree with a lot of what you said, this statement the most. It's about how society pushes us to not lead fulfilling lives, but to chase a carrot on a stick because selling your soul for 1 million carrots is better than having none. That quote on the first page about having our best and brightest engineering ads is on point. This is a societal and existential issue.

Which is all the more frustrating that this conversation is not going to happen on this forum, judging from the last 2 pages.
 

Chaos-Theory

Member
Dec 6, 2018
2,441
I agree with a lot of what you said, this statement the most. It's about how society pushes us to not lead fulfilling lives, but to chase a carrot on a stick because selling your soul for 1 million carrots is better than having none. That quote on the first page about having our best and brightest engineering ads is on point. This is a societal and existential issue.

Which is all the more frustrating that this conversation is not going to happen on this forum, judging from the last 2 pages.
The finance industry lures some of the best and brightest mathematicians and physicists for the sake of creating trading algorithms as well.
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,696
Yes.

Look man, obviously money doesn't magically fix mental or physical illness. I have an older cousin who is fairly rich, but whose son died before I was born due to MS – Trust me, I understand that no amount of money is ever going to fix that pain.

However, privilege is still real. What about the single parent who has to work 80+ hours a week just to make ends meet and whose benefits are going to get cut, and is never going to be able to get any help for their mental illness – often due to economic and social policies out of their control? Often issues that can be directly linked to the active and purposeful dismantling of social programs and hoarding of wealth by the uber rich.

I mean, sure, there's a pitiful irony to this, like a poor Trump supporter who is propagating a system that ultimately hurts them and makes them unhappy, but at the same time, you're robbing them of their agency and infantilizing them by denying them culpability.

Sure, money for therapy or medicine doesn't magically fix problems, but at the same time, that doesn't absolve someone for exploiting and robbing other people from seeking that same help. And it's certainly a lack of empathy when one doesn't understand where this animosity comes from.

I'm just so frustrated at the fact I can read this and not disagree with anything you said. Your misattributing things to me that I never said and things I certainly don't believe.

Question to you, sincerely, and in good faith: What do you think the point of my post was?
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
A large majority of people seem to be miserable in some way, regardless of their amount of income. It could be an issue reflecting out current times rather than money itself that we should probably discuss, but instead people in this thread have decided to argue.
 

TinfoilHatsROn

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
Lol, what a fucking dumpster fire of a thread. We got an armchair psychologist throwing around so many buzzwords of the day in here, rightfully banned. Though only 4 days for calling another member psychotic is seriously iffy.

samoyed
I just wanted to say, I appreciate your posts here and elsewhere. The other poster is a God damn POS for calling you a psycho cause he/she can't argue your points. It was transparent as fuck. I don't normally say anything in internet slapfights but thought I needed to say something here.
 

ObbyDent

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Los Angeles
Boo fucking hoo I'm almost homeless

Be fucking miserable, I hope their lives fucking suck
 

hockeypuck

Member
Oct 29, 2017
739
Doctors report some of the lowest rates of job satisfaction, yet they are paid well and their work is seen as socially valuable. Why is that?

...

Your reading in an interesting one. I focused on the various studies of vocational fulfillment and that janitorial staff report higher rates of vocational satisfaction than doctors. That's more salient to readers than a focus on an HBS graduating class, which is mostly a storytelling technique.
Regarding the article, I also didn't know hospital janitors are way happier than doctors.
You keep saying this, but the article in the OP never compares job satisfaction between janitors and doctors. Moreover, the hospital janitor example that IS mentioned in the article specifically refers to a group of 28 hospital cleaning staff from a single hospital system that the researchers separated into two groups: one group who didn't see fulfillment in their jobs and the other group who did. The link that the NYT journalist provides isn't even to that actual research paper either, just a 24-page review article that dedicates 3 paragraphs to those janitors. The actual research paper was a working paper that AFAIK has never been published.

Why you're inaccurately comparing that with job dissatisfaction in the entire field of Medicine, I'm not sure. The NYT article in the OP literally mentions doctors in only one sentence: "Even among professionals given to lofty self-images, like those in medicine and law, other studies have noted a rise in discontent." That doesn't necessarily mean that in general job satisfaction rates among doctors are lower than among hospital janitors, especially when you're using 28 janitors as your sample size.

As for your claim that "doctors report some of the lowest rates of job satisfaction," I would like to see the receipts.
 
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