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AMD's supersampling "DLSS" solution won't be ready in 2020. What effect do we think this had on XSX/PS5 development?

Sho_Nuff82

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,438
Piggybacking on the threads already here for the RDNA 2 features and the "full" Xbox integration, AMD mentioned that their supersampling technique will not be launching with any of their cards in November/December this year:

www.theverge.com

AMD’s new Radeon RX 6800 XT promises to go head to head with Nvidia’s RTX 3080

AMD has three new graphics cards
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

The Verge said:
While AMD is promising to go head to head with Nvidia in 4K gaming and more, the one big missing piece of this battle is a lack of an equivalent to Nvidia's DLSS. Nvidia's AI-powered super sampling technology has been transformative for the games that support it, bringing great image quality and higher frame rates by simply toggling a game setting.

AMD tells me it has a new super sampling feature in testing, which is designed to increase performance during ray tracing. The company is promising its super sampling technology will be open and cross-platform, which means it could come to next-gen consoles like the Xbox Series X and PS5. AMD is working with a number of partners on this technology, and it's expecting strong industry support. Unfortunately, this won't be ready for the launch of these three new Radeon RX 6000 Series cards.
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I've always thought it odd that MS and Sony haven't really gone in depth about the RTX benchmarks of their respective platforms, or that MS never elaborated on Direct ML after announcing it as a hardware feature way back in March. Most of the year, there has been on and off speculation that the consoles would have a DLSS-like solution to keep up with NVIDIA's framerate-boosting feature. After AMD's announcements that they *do* have such a solution, but that it's not ready yet, it makes me wonder about a variety of next gen things:

- Cyberpunk next gen versions pushed to 2021, RTX exclusive to Nvidia in 2020
- Halo next gen/RTX patch pushed to 2021 (announced before full delay)
- DMC5 SE no RTX support on Series S, only 1080p at 60FPS with RTX on

While there are obviously games with RTX support right out of the gate (notably Spider-Man, DS, COD, and Gears 5), it has been clear from the start that reconstruction would be necessary for the new boxes to keep up with next gen video cards for the next few years. Do you think this feature not being available at launch may have hindered early, high-resolution RTX support for XSX/PS5?
 
delete

delete

Member
Jul 4, 2019
1,189
If this tech is made available/feasible on consoles then definitely yes it will allow games that use ray tracing in some capacity to compensate for the performance overhead. But it will probably take a while and isn't as simple as flicking a switch, probably won't see the effects of this next year on consoles.
 
DeoGame

DeoGame

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Dec 11, 2018
5,077
I think it can be added as software, no?

Either way, difference in Yakuza running at 900p60/1440p60 and 1440p60/4k60p as it should have on Xbox I suppose.
 
smurfx

smurfx

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,578
well the pro editions of the consoles will be able to use that tech to advertise 8k even if its only achievable with this tech and not real 8k.
 
Sanctuary

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,228
DLSS is one of the main reasons I wanted an Nvidia card this year over an AMD one since they had not announced their own solution for that, but...

Nvidia's AI-powered super sampling technology has been transformative for the games that support it
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Is the key takeaway. It's no doubt great in the games that do support it, but I just wonder how long it will take before it becomes more widespread, or if the lack of something similar being on the consoles will even allow it to gain much traction in the PC realm. It was ironically done first by Nvidia, but we might have to wait for AMD to catch up before it's widely implemented.

YeahJeets said:
Ps5 pro and xbox series XL if it's hardware based like nvidias tech
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LOL
 
Tagyhag

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,507
I feel like someone has told me before and I'm dumb and forgot. Do the GPU's of the PS5/Xbox have tensor cores in them?

If not, then maybe it can be something in their refresh consoles.

If they do, then it might not have an effect because they can use something like checkerboarding in the meantime.
 
VanWinkle

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,095
IF this DLSS solution comes to PS5 and Series X/S in a couple years, let's just say there will be no need for mid-gen refreshes. The update would be the equivalent of that.

I'm not sold on this coming to the consoles, though. We'll see.
 
bsigg

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,556
Sho_Nuff82 said:
- Cyberpunk next gen versions pushed to 2021, RTX exclusive to Nvidia in 2020
- Halo next gen/RTX patch pushed to 2021 (announced before full delay)
- DMC5 SE no RTX support on Series S, only 1080p at 60FPS with RTX on
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RTX is Nvidia specific branding of ray tracing. Xbox won't support RTX, but rather DXR.
 

guitarNINJA

Member
Dec 30, 2017
56
Tagyhag said:
I feel like someone has told me before and I'm dumb and forgot. Do the GPU's of the PS5/Xbox have tensor cores in them?

If not, then maybe it can be something in their refresh consoles.

If they do, then it might not have an effect because they can use something like checkerboarding in the meantime.
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No they don't. Tensor cores are an Nvidia thing.
 
Spork4000

Spork4000

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,522
Tagyhag said:
I feel like someone has told me before and I'm dumb and forgot. Do the GPU's of the PS5/Xbox have tensor cores in them?

If not, then maybe it can be something in their refresh consoles.

If they do, then it might not have an effect because they can use something like checkerboarding in the meantime.
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Tensor cores are a propriety tech to Nvidia, so no, that can't.
 
Uhtred

Uhtred

Alt Account
Banned
May 4, 2020
1,340
Tagyhag said:
I feel like someone has told me before and I'm dumb and forgot. Do the GPU's of the PS5/Xbox have tensor cores in them?

If not, then maybe it can be something in their refresh consoles.

If they do, then it might not have an effect because they can use something like checkerboarding in the meantime.
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No they do not.
 
Uhtred

Uhtred

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May 4, 2020
1,340
Not sure what impact it would have. I don't think anything changes. They'll still use whatever inferior reconstruction techniques they have available to them and lower the quality and feature robustness of ray tracing vs PC.

I think that was the plan all along.
 
Uhtred

Uhtred

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May 4, 2020
1,340
Tagyhag said:
Thanks! So I don't know how they'd do a DLSS equivalent without the AI learning.
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They might be able to get close, who knows. the problem is that in order to be on equal footing you'd need to have a technique that gives you the same temporal stability and IQ as DLSS, AND, critically, runs nearly as fast at least.

Without dedicated hardware accelerating the process, who knows if they can do it.
 
Indy_Rex

Indy_Rex

Banned
Sep 20, 2020
759
Sony has really good alternatives with the likes of Insomniac's temporal injection techniques and other solutions, I don't think they have to worry about DLSS just yet. I don't know how well MS handles its DRS solutions, but I'm sure they'll do ok for the time being.

AMD cards on the other hand? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. One of the few reasons why I'm holding on to a RDNA2 card is precisely because they've only managed to be as "efficient" as the 3000 series in raw benchmarks w/o DLSS. With DLSS 2.0 and above on? II feel there's more headroom in the 3000 series. So I hope AMD's solution is as good/better as nvidias and comes out soon (but given how AMD's "open sourced" alternatives usually end up being worse? .... eh.)
 

guitarNINJA

Member
Dec 30, 2017
56
Tagyhag said:
Thanks! So I don't know how they'd do a DLSS equivalent without the AI learning.
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DLSS runs on the Tensor cores because it's an algorithm that leverages neural nets, and the tensor cores are very fast at that. There is nothing inherent to upscaling that *requires* tensor cores. This is just Nvidias approach. AMD could be simply working on their own bespoke system that takes in previous frame data, motion vectors, and whatever other info is available to try and output a higher resolution. Like super-checkerboarding.
 
RoboPlato

RoboPlato

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Oct 25, 2017
6,808
Probably not much as most games will still be cross-gen and the games that aren't will just be scratching the surface of what the consoles can do.
 
BloodHound

BloodHound

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Oct 27, 2017
9,007
Indy_Rex said:
Sony has really good alternatives with the likes of Insomniac's temporal injection techniques and other solutions, I don't think they have to worry about DLSS just yet. I don't know how well MS handles its DRS solutions, but I'm sure they'll do ok for the time being.

AMD cards on the other hand? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. One of the few reasons why I'm holding on to a RDNA2 card is precisely because they've only managed to be as "efficient" as the 3000 series in raw benchmarks w/o DLSS. With DLSS 2.0 and above on? II feel there's more headroom in the 3000 series. So I hope AMD's solution is as good/better as nvidias and comes out soon (but given how AMD's "open sourced" alternatives usually end up being worse? .... eh.)
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Plus a lot of those benchmarks with AMD were done with overclocking.

Highly skeptical we get DLSS level tech in any console coming out nx month without a revision.
 
Spark

Spark

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Dec 6, 2017
2,540
Their conference was so vague on this and their raytracing tech. I have very serious doubt it'll be up to the same standard as Turing, let alone Ampere.
 
EvilBoris

EvilBoris

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Oct 29, 2017
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Tagyhag said:
I feel like someone has told me before and I'm dumb and forgot. Do the GPU's of the PS5/Xbox have tensor cores in them?

If not, then maybe it can be something in their refresh consoles.

If they do, then it might not have an effect because they can use something like checkerboarding in the meantime.
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Tensor cores are nvidia branding.

The Xbox has some RDNA2 hardware features to run with 4bit and 8bit integers , which makes it significantly faster for running machine learning type tasks.

We don't know if the PS5 has this feature.
 
Tagyhag

Tagyhag

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Oct 27, 2017
12,507
Sanctuary said:
AMD have had their own "image sharpening" solution for a while now, but it's not DLSS, and I wonder if that's what they are trying to consider as equivalent, and what they are actually bringing to the consoles.

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guitarNINJA said:
DLSS runs on the Tensor cores because it's an algorithm that leverages neural nets, and the tensor cores are very fast at that. There is nothing inherent to upscaling that *requires* tensor cores. This is just Nvidias approach. AMD could be simply working on their own bespoke system that takes in previous frame data, motion vectors, and whatever other info is available to try and output a higher resolution. Like super-checkerboarding.
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Jraphics Horse said:
When the game Control first launched the version of DLSS it used didn't use tensor cores, it's possible. You can still run A.I. trained instructions on any kind of processor.
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Yeah I knew about their sharpening solution but as someone who has no idea how all of this works, it'll be really interesting to see if they can get the same results without using AI or the advantages of hardware like tensor cores directly helping out.

I always thought it was crazy that NVIDIA would give that much GPU space away for tensor, but looks like they really were thinking ahead.
 
Fireclad

Fireclad

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Oct 27, 2017
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The Void
Jraphics Horse said:
When the game Control first launched the version of DLSS it used didn't use tensor cores, it's possible. You can still run A.I. trained instructions on any kind of processor.
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Uhhhh, isn't DLSS 1.0 a rather poor benchmark for what is achievable in software? Not to say that AMD's hypothetical software implementation will be that poor but the precedence that's been set doesn't inspire confidence.

Then again the IQ on some sony games has been absurd this gen. It'd be nice to have some more universal support for this kind of image reconstruction, but I'd be lying if I said a hypothetical DLSS 3.0 isn't more exciting to me at present. Playing control this morning was mind blowing.
 
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Indy_Rex

Indy_Rex

Banned
Sep 20, 2020
759
YeahJeets said:
Raytracing is cool but it's not worth the tradeoff of 30 fps IMO. Hopefully as game get out of crossgen mode they still give you high framerate options.
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Having Control running with all RT options set to max was definitely worth playing at 30fps. Likewise for Minecraft and Quake. I won't even play Control w/o RT. RT is a game changing inclusion to... uh.... games.
 
Mifec

Mifec

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Oct 25, 2017
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Fireclad said:
Uhhhh, isn't DLSS 1.0 a rather poor benchmark for what is achievable in software? Not to say that AMD's hypothetical software implementation will be that poor but the precedence that's been set doesn't inspire confidence.

Then again IQ on some sony games has been absurd this gen. It'd be nice to have some more universal support this kind of image reconstruction, but I'd be lying if I said a hypothetical DLSS 3.0 isn't more exciting to me at present. Playing control this morning was mind blowing.
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Yeah I have zero confidence of AMD ever achieving anything close to DLSS (or whatever nvidia plans to do wth it next) if they only go for a software solution.
 

Jraphics Horse

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Oct 26, 2017
7,981
Fireclad said:
Uhhhh, isn't DLSS 1.0 a rather poor benchmark for what is achievable in software? Not to say that AMD's hypothetical software implementation will be that poor but the precedence that's been set doesn't inspire confidence.

Then again IQ on some sony games has been absurd this gen. It'd be nice to have some more universal support this kind of image reconstruction, but I'd be lying if I said a hypothetical DLSS 3.0 isn't more exciting to me at present. Playing control this morning was mind blowing.
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I don't mean I expect anything to duplicate what DLSS 1 was doing, just giving an example of how it hasn't required specific hardware. But yeah DLSS 2.1 will take a lot to beat.
 
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