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Oct 29, 2017
4,721
Looking at the state of the industry today? Roger Ebert was right. Games are not art, and never will be. All they are is a breeding groud for right-wing extremists and worthless popcorn movie wannabes.

This article looks really dated and sad in retrospect. Gamers Rise Up indeed.
 

Brutalitops

Member
Dec 6, 2017
1,251
Looking at the state of the industry today? Roger Ebert was right. Games are not art, and never will be. All they are is a breeding groud for right-wing extremists and worthless popcorn movie wannabes.

This article looks really dated and sad in retrospect. Gamers Rise Up indeed.
Awful post. Never let the endless potential of this fantastic medium be defined by some piece of shit fans of it.

Not to mention your definition of what art is or can be seems close minded at best
 

GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,481
He is not wrong, he does go on a rant about how video games is often perceived as a silly waste of time and he could have worded it a bit better.

His point is rather that the medium is afraid to be its own thing and that we seek validation from places we don't really need, thus we hold ourselves back from what we can be as people. He is very vocal about being afraid of yourself and confirming to what everyone else is doing instead of being who you want to be, he wouldn't have made BioShock if he decided games were stupid because everyone else around him seemed to think and he went along with it.

Games as a medium generally have no balls to deal with complex topics and politics, rarely it has a focused voice in this world and are instead just the safest most boring designed by a committee products out there. We shouldn't be afraid of making works of art that deals with topics that might seem strange or provocative, losing our voices due to collective culturally pressure is the worst we can do.
 

bell_hooks

Banned
Nov 23, 2019
275
To be honest it's not as bad as I imagined given that it's 2010 and Ken Levine. I am usually first person to hate on "gamer" identity, but Levine has pretty much same debetate as today's "Marvel movies are not cinema." Although his reply is way less dignified than those to Scorsese and such.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
There's a very 2010-ness to the article that makes it a bit dated, and the macho title to it doesn't help either, but the overall point that the video game industry has a serious inferiority complex is legit and I've agreed with that forever, though I don't necessarily need Ken Levine to further that point for me. There is a huge sense of insecurity in this industry sometimes, and a lot of games writers exude a certain "I want my family to think I'm a Big Serious Critic like with the movies!" energy, when we should be more confident in the weirdness and uniqueness of the medium and specifically not just let it turn into the movie industry.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
this comment hurts me but i cant fully disagree either

Well, the point of the article is that you shouldn't let it hurt you, and while I think it's somewhat nonsensically presented, I kind of agree with the essence. There's always been a pecking order where artists and critics of one discipline sneer at less estabilished ones (literature -> cinema -> comics; music has its very own pecking order). Videogames are just the latest newcomers, and worrying about how they're perceived is as pointless as, say, worrying about the maturity of comics when e.g. Maus and Persepolis exist.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,798
10 years later, unfortunately, many in this industry still seek validation by people outside of the industry.

Seriously, why give a shit what some random person says? Surely the fact that you've made and seen a game from conception to release is validation enough? Yeah, it is a rhetorical question, it obviously is not enough for some people, some need to have their creations noticed to feel good about themselves.

EDIT: This happens with both devs and players. Just recently the whole Witcher thing is a great example. Many people feel validated that some famous actors are playing games they also like, and cheering that. Why do you care? Was your enjoyment of your passions and interests not enough for you?
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
1414697183381.png

tenor.gif
 

hipsterbodega

Member
Oct 30, 2017
603
Video games (broadly speaking: the industry, the audience, the games themselves, etc) are stuck in an infantile state, and have been for as long as I've been alive.

Most of our most popular games can only communicate in violence and our loudest voices are right wing extremists.

But most of us don't enjoy just the violent games and most of us don't harass women online. Rightly or wrongly, it's no wonder we often seek validation from outside sources because our intrinsic identity is shit and most of us don't want to be stuck here.

 

Javier23

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,904
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All things considered, and given the current state of affairs everywhere, it's good to realise this way that we have actually made progress in some areas over the last decade. But ooof.
 

Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,140
Looking at the state of the industry today? Roger Ebert was right. Games are not art, and never will be. All they are is a breeding groud for right-wing extremists and worthless popcorn movie wannabes.

This article looks really dated and sad in retrospect. Gamers Rise Up indeed.

I actually know multiple people who got emotionally touched by games and games made them think about their world view.

Games can be an amazing medium and saying they can only be alt-right shit does a huge, HUUUUUGE disservice to the people that design and create some amazing experiences with games.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,975
The writing is cringe-inducing, it's very typical of something from 2010, but I think his argument is valid: Get over it that some people don't or won't respect videogames, and keep working on your own medium, and eventually it'll find more respect or it will reach such a critical mass of appeal that "respect" won't matter.

We don't owe anything to anybody. The future of entertainment is being envisioned not just by the games industry, but by a confluence of developers and gamers who've interacted on BBSes and the Net since our hobby began. And we're just getting started. Wait until we have had the time to develop that film and television had. We'll either be ruling the world, or we'll be the Eberts, writing dismissive essays about the newest kind of media, which of course will be irrelevant and shallow. That is something that we must not do, because that kind of thinking is the first step on the path to irrelevance.

I think he's right here, except for the thought of "once you become the Eberts you're on your first step to irrelevance." That's ridiculous, but the rest of the argument is valid.

That said I never drank the Ken Levine Koolaid, at least Levine as some brilliant world-builder or narrative crafter. The run-up to Bioshock Infinite saw so many effusive pieces about him trying to make him the Steve Jobs of videogames, which he's not. There was one brilliantly produced piece in Polygon, a visual feast, but it was this sappy love story to Ken Levine's genius where he (in)famously proclaimed he spent thousands of hours working on Infinite's story, or whatever the number was, and after playing 60% of the game I was like "you... spent thousands of hours on... on this?" Bioshock Infinite seemed like a concept that someone came up with while sitting on the toilet, and then maybe spent 3-4 commutes-worth trying to validate the concept.

My biggest criticism of Levine's work is his self-congratulations with BIoshock as some sort of choice-and-consequence machine. It wasn't, and while he was trying to make an argument about human agency he quit at the quintessential moment when the argument would make the most sense, the climax of Bioshock, and it ruined any argument he was building up about free will and agency before that. I'll never understand why Bioshock took control away from the player in the "Would you Kindly" scene, because doing that completely upends the argument that the antagonist is making about you (the player), and about videogames as a medium... It ends up becoming the worst example of the thing that Levine is supposedly making critical commentary about.

The take that people in this thread have that this is a "Gamers Rise Up" sort of argument (whatever that means) is wrong, though. Levine's argument is "Gamers grow up," not "Gamers rise up." E.g., grow up, mature, stop being so dependent on praise from people who aren't relevant to what you're doing, they don't justify your work, and some wider approval isn't necessary to justify your value. I don't follow this "Gamers Rise Up" bull shit, but I'd imagine their argument is the opposite of that... which is like, "Gamers need to demand the credibility [we] deserve," which... is what Levine seems to be arguing against here.
 
Last edited:
Oct 30, 2017
614
Games don't need validation from external sources and is the industry really looking for that or is it just edge cases that get blown out of proportion.

Sadly much like the article: games are still incredibly juvenile. Games that step outside of the norm or don't pass some strange purity test - this usually requires you must kill things - are scoffed at or dismissed by the "true" gamers. The industry has perfected the mix of timed dopamine hits and spectacle with the occasional nod to some sort of deep thought. Bioshock Infinite is an example of this but the new CoD is the master class.

The true gamers feel a lot like Marvel weirdos. Totally dominate the culture and are completely pandered to but still pretend to be the attacked underdog. This article was written right around the time that shift really took hold. Gamer culture is kinda trash.
 

Hail Satan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,171
Its kind of amazing that no matter how many times I see this panel I still cringe every time. "We're not violent; shut the hell up or we'll fuck you up". Forget games, this and Loss are the true art pieces; the physical, crystalized form of lack of self-awareness.
Lol, right?!!
It's so incredible. I would love to meet the moron who wrote that and ask them if they understand why I refer to them as a moron.
 

Openrob

Member
Nov 5, 2017
636
Looking at the state of the industry today? Roger Ebert was right. Games are not art, and never will be. All they are is a breeding groud for right-wing extremists and worthless popcorn movie wannabes.

This article looks really dated and sad in retrospect. Gamers Rise Up indeed.


The amount of bullshit like this, spouted by members of *a video game discussion forum* is hilarious - the lack of self awareness astounds me.
 

Vire

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,591
Not everyone can be the literary geniuses who created the timeless masterpiece Bioshock Infinite /s
 

Zojirushi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,293
Ah yes, the good old Brainy Gamer days when we all thought videogames were gonna go somewhere. Good times.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I think the writing in that article is pretty cringe-y and the way he specifically targets Ebert just comes off as unnecessary. That being said, I at least agree with the central thesis that gaming as a medium should stop seeking external validation by being self-flagellating and embarrassed of itself.
At the same time, The Last of Us is a lot of people's favorite game and I don't think just because it superficially has movie qualities. That bump up in human characters and earned storytelling is what made people like it... But the way it was marketed was of course a little pretentious with all the "Citizen Kane of games" crap. And there's other games like Half Life 2 and NieR that hold equal merit by different means. But still it's true I feel. We have to remember that movies have a mainstream that has increased due to increasingly making movies with focus on making for target audience. Games immediately sought targets too, but the way it grew was through fostering a gaming audience and it doesn't have to sell itself out to be more like other things in order to be "validated". Rather, if it doesn't then in 20 years the "gaming" audience will be bigger than the moviegoers and it will be unique from the moviegoing audience.
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
Looking at the state of the industry today? Roger Ebert was right. Games are not art, and never will be. All they are is a breeding groud for right-wing extremists and worthless popcorn movie wannabes.

This article looks really dated and sad in retrospect. Gamers Rise Up indeed.
Wow, aren't you just sooo superior to us "gamers", right? You may want to remind yourself where you are.