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Alita: Battle Angel |OT| Mobile Suit Gunnm.
- Thread starter Old Man Spike
- Start date
Whoa he's wearing an Alita shirt. Man it's awesome to see that Alita is a passionate project for him for over 20 years.
Actually, they greenlit Avatar sequels because the first film was the highest grossing film I history. And even then, they've only greenlit the entire production process of Avatar 2&3. They're waiting to see how they perform before allowing Cameron to go further than completing performance capture work on 4&5 (capture work on 4 is already done).
It's really not the same at all.
Yes, if Alita JUST breaks even and then has a successful life on home video, a sequel might get greenlit under the right circumstances. But that's very different to what you were suggesting earlier and comparing to with the Avatar sequels.
Obviously Avatar's sequels are a different beast after being one of the highest grossing films of all time, but no one was giving Joss Whedon that sort of benefit of the doubt after the first Avengers, nor J.J. Abrams after TFA.
As a matter of fact, forget about the sequels, they gave Cameron an opportunity to make a brand new IP in Avatar for a budget of probably over $400M total. Who else is getting that kind of leeway for a movie that could be a total flop, even after Titanic, especially since Titanic also had delays and ballooning budgets?
I'm not saying that Alita is Avatar, I'm saying that Alita is Cameron, and as being Cameron's passion project, I could see him trying to move mountains to get a sequel in the way that he basically did to get Avatar made.
See my post above.
It's not different to what I've been saying since at no time was I trying to say a proven success is the same as a movie breaking even. That would make no sense and it's just twisting my words. I'm saying this is about the person that is behind this film pushing it to be made in the first place gets the benefit of the doubt that other directors don't get. Even Steven Spielberg isn't getting the production time and budget to make a film like Avatar in the first place, not that I even think that it would be his style, but Cameron is a different type of film maker. He bets big and wins big and if he can make a good pitch for an Alita sequel or even trilogy, given the movie at least breaks even, I could see him pulling it off, and probably being the only person who could.
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Um, you think that maybe Cameron having an amazing box office track record has something to do with how much leeway he's given compared to Joss Whedon and Abrams? lol
Before Avatar (which btw, isn't one of the highest grossing films of all time, but is far and away the highest grossing film of all time by a ridiculous amount), Cameron also had the highest grossing movie of all time with Titanic. He also had huge box office successes like T1, T2, Aliens and True Lies under his belt.
No shit Cameron would get more leeway than Whedon, who feature-wise had one bomba under his belt with Serenity and Abrams - whose, like Whedon, biggest successes came from being attached to already established properties with an in-built audience that already guarantees a certain level of success whether they're helming it or not.
Comparing what studios offer a proven blockbuster-maker director like Cameron with franchise hop-ons like Whedon is a ridiculous way of making your point.
And Avatar's budget wasn't over $400m. It was still higher than the officially reported $230m, but by all reports was closer to $300m.
There are a few things I really like about the flick. It being focused on Alita and all action set pieces revolving around her development. Nothing felt needless like most action adventure flicks. All of the sequences were extremely well shot as well. You could always tell what was going on with it. Even if at times it did seem a bit chunky. The film also had amazing world building and the relationship with Alita and the Doc was great.
And let's not compare Cameron to Abrams or Whedon. Cameron makes new franchises, Abrams and Whedon just get brought on. Big difference.
And let's not compare Cameron to Abrams or Whedon. Cameron makes new franchises, Abrams and Whedon just get brought on. Big difference.
Going by Wikipedia,
Even by the likely lowballing studio estimate, they still put it at $387M total.
Maybe I didn't make a great point by comparing Cameron to Whedon and Abrams, but my point isn't about the Avatar sequels being greenlit at all, because obviously they are coming on the back of a successful film, but the fact that even in the way the sequels were greenlit, even in the way the first film was made, this is not the normal way that directors are able to make movies. James Cameron is a special case and he has built up that clout through a career of success, and lately through a career of incredible success, but he also has a method of making big meticulous films, of which Alita is one of, having been in development for as long as it has.
He's not a director for it, but he's a producer on the film with practically as much skin in the game and involvement as if he was still attached. I think Fox knew that to even support Alita in the first place because it's James Cameron. It's like because he's not behind the camera that people want to treat this as if it's not his film.
Firstly, why are you including the marketing budget for Avatar? Nobody ever includes the marketing budget or every tentpole would easily eclipse $300m.
Secondly, it's not about how much skin Cameron has in the game. It's about how much skin the studio (aka the guys actually paying for the thing) do. And so that is where the huge goddamn moon-sized gulf of difference lies between Cameron directing and producing lol. Cameron producing guarantees nothing.
What did you think of that 3D cave-diving movie he produced a few years ago? That's right, you're looking it up right now because you have nfi what I'm talking about.
Uhhhhh, this movie was amazing.
I really really liked it, it far exceeded my expectations. Hoping for a sequel.
I really really liked it, it far exceeded my expectations. Hoping for a sequel.
Saw the movie today and really enjoyed it. Got my hopes up with the reveal at the end that there might be a sequel set up. Then I read that they're saying they need to see around half a bil globally before they would consider it annnd... that doesn't appear to be a possibility unless this thing gets some legs.
Such a bummer.
Such a bummer.
I included the marketing budget because it is an insane amount for any brand new IP. It's insane enough that it's over $200M, that it would get even close to $300M, but then to get another $150M at least in marketing on top of that is crazy. Not for a Star Wars film, but for a brand new movie about alien cat people.
I don't know what you mean by the "3D cave diving movie", because I'm seeing everything from documentaries that he actually also directed to movies he "produced" but was credited as as executive producer, which is not the same as doing the production and development of the movie as a producer. To take that even further, on Alita, Cameron also wrote the screenplay so from a studio's perspective, how do they look at all that and equate that with the same hands-off involvement as being an EP on some deep sea doc?
Me and my friend were both floored that not a SINGLE person in the whole movie commented on her freakish eyes. They completely gloss over it in what i assume is a power move from the director.
I watched this last night, and thought it was way better than I anticipated. Great action sequences, and Alita's character development was good. I like the world too. Really hope we get a sequel.
I figured it was because of all the artificial cyborg people, they were all used to that kind of stuff.
They live in a world where entire bodies are replaced by cybernetics and you think they'd be weirded out by big eyes?
Ever heard of Strange Days? That's a movie Cameron wrote and produced. You think a sequel would get greenlit by a studio?
And no, every tentpole has roughly that marketing budget. Even unknown film IPs. Mortal Engines. The Lone Ranger. John Carter.
A studio tentpole is a studio tentpole is a studio tentpole. Acting like it's surprising that the marketing budget on an UNKNOWN $200m+ tentpole is as large as the marketing for a Star Wars film makes no sense. Of course if it's unknown and it costs that much money, a studio needs to market the hell out of it.
I'm not sure why you keep fighting the obvious logic of this whole thing anyway. Cameron as a producer means jack all when it comes to a studio deciding whether or not to greenlight a sequel to a movie that has put them in the red.
If Cameron were proposing the direct said sequel himself, it might be a different conversation. But that's not what you've been talking about. And nothing you have said has shown why a studio would be willing to do otherwise with him only producing.
It should tell you something that Fox refused to greenlight Alita itself once Cameron handed the directing reigns to Rodriguez, unless the budget was slashed to $170m or below. By Rodriguez and Cameron's own admission, Cameron's version of the film would've cost twice as much. Cameron producing made then lose confidence.
Cameron offering to produce a potential sequel to a what might be a potential bomb makes even less sense for the studio to greenlight.
See, this was my first thought, but then I remembered what teenage boys and girls are like and how obsessive they can be. Her infatuation with him was actually really endearing, even more so because he looks like a discount store Jonas brother.
Of all of the insane cyborg hybrids walking around, she looks normal by comparison. And then when they show how Martian cyborgs ALL look like that, it becomes even less of an oddity.
I think it's the opposite; it makes sense to me that people in that world realize she is a cyborg and just accept it as "weird cyborg shit", but I'm floored that people watching it still get so hung up on it, despite the whole movie being filled with inhuman-looking cyborgs that look more like machines than anything organic.
Yup. As locked-on as she seemed to Hugo, the movie does remind us she's ultimately a teenager. I can see her setting her sights on one dude & having a hopeless dedication towards him for a time. If this designed to be an origin story for a series of movies, I'm all for having her overcome that kind of feeling now rather than later in the series.
Better directors like Nolan or Russo brothers probably don't want an anime ip since GitS didn't make it. Robert Rodriguez is a freak so Cameron can trick him into making it.
Cameron honestly should have coaxed Del Toro to do it. Those guys adore each other and Del Toro was the one who introduced Cameron to Alita.
Rodriguez is a solid director, I think he did better than Nolan would with the action sequences.
Maybe, but Nolan can get Hans Zimmer on board. I think the main problem is Nolan will make a Nolan movie which is too far away from Cameron's imagination of Alita.
Nolan also only shoot film that's not going to work.
At least it didn't come out around the same time as Captain Marvel.
Hopefully China and Japan (or Netflix's animation team) will save the film.
Hopefully China and Japan (or Netflix's animation team) will save the film.
I really enjoyed this movie. Certainly one the best anime/manga adaptations I've seen along with Speed Racer.
I've hardly got any problems with it. It looked amazing, I thought the characters were personable and interesting, and the world was just cool to look at.
Though I have to question why the Battle Angel/Gumn property was worth a 200 million dollar movie exactly. Looking up the source material it doens't seem much more than the 90's rule of cool hyper violent action thing. Not that it cant be good in it's own right but it's not the the original manga marketed itself to general audiences exactly. This seems destined to be a Niche film only a select few resonate with and sing the praises of (Much like Speed Racer).
I guess this was a worthy step for anime adaptations though. Alita's CGI face became natural to me within minutes and she always felt apart of the scene and not and out of place CGI character.
I've hardly got any problems with it. It looked amazing, I thought the characters were personable and interesting, and the world was just cool to look at.
Though I have to question why the Battle Angel/Gumn property was worth a 200 million dollar movie exactly. Looking up the source material it doens't seem much more than the 90's rule of cool hyper violent action thing. Not that it cant be good in it's own right but it's not the the original manga marketed itself to general audiences exactly. This seems destined to be a Niche film only a select few resonate with and sing the praises of (Much like Speed Racer).
I guess this was a worthy step for anime adaptations though. Alita's CGI face became natural to me within minutes and she always felt apart of the scene and not and out of place CGI character.
Maybe if Strange Days wasn't a bomb, broke even, had interested audiences, and was meant to have sequels based on the source material it would have. Going by your logic, it being the last original sci-fi story Cameron wrote before Avatar, that's even more reason Avatar would have never been made if anyone but Cameron was making it.
"Unknown" IPs all based on known source material, unlike the completely original IP Avatar. $150M is still on the high end of marketing, and if any wholly original creations, even movies based on existing IPs that they are cautious of their money making potential will be met with more conservative marketing budgets. Not to mention that Avatar's big selling point of 3D was still not thought to be a selling point for a film at that point, definitely not to the point of helping it to break world records.
I'm not fighting the "obvious" logic that you insist that Cameron's name only matters as a director and not a producer. That kind of logic maybe matters to the mass audience but in the studio system, that's where a person's reputation has way more clout as not just a director but as a producer as well, especially when you look at other directors who are able to throw their clout behind productions to make the movies they want to make like Steven Spielberg or Peter Jackson. Would Mortal Engines even get made if it wasn't for Jackson backing it?
Not to mention Cameron is also teaming with Jon Landau as producers on Alita, who previously produced both Titanic and Avatar with Cameron. The fact that Alita even got $170M (which is not a small amount) for an ANIME ADAPTATION (which the closest films to even be on the same scale were, I believe Speed Racer at $120M and Ghost in the Shell at $110M, which both bombed) with a director who usually works on films with a fraction of that budget and more flops than hits, outside of Sin City and half the Spy Kids movies, it's a minor miracle that it got made at that budget at all.
They really needed to flag in marketing that it ends on a cliffhanger going in. I think that caused a lot of missed expectations. Also the whole script was a mess. They basically took a Netflix series and crammed it into a movie. There were several reveals that should have been paced episodically but in the movie format they didn't have enough time to breathe. You don't really feel the mystery leading up or the payoff once you find out because it's going too fast. The awkward pacing also makes the movie feel long.
Otherwise I did like aspects of it. They created a cool cyberpunk world. Using uncanny valley as a visual element for the cyborgs was a good artistic choice. This also helps it get the anime-style action better because while such scenes can come off more awkwardly when you're CG-ifying live actors, but because the cyborgs are meant to look that way it helps to not pull you out of it.
So overall Hollywood still can't do live-action anime/manga but it feels like some progress was made. It was also clear nobody knows the audience because my theater literally had an Ugly Dolls trailer followed directly by Us.
Otherwise I did like aspects of it. They created a cool cyberpunk world. Using uncanny valley as a visual element for the cyborgs was a good artistic choice. This also helps it get the anime-style action better because while such scenes can come off more awkwardly when you're CG-ifying live actors, but because the cyborgs are meant to look that way it helps to not pull you out of it.
So overall Hollywood still can't do live-action anime/manga but it feels like some progress was made. It was also clear nobody knows the audience because my theater literally had an Ugly Dolls trailer followed directly by Us.
Spielberg and Jackson have gotten movies greenlit as producers, yes. Just like Cameron (and Landau, yes) has with Alita. Again, this is not the conversation we're having. The conversation we're having is whether any one of them - Spielberg, Jackson or Cameron or fucking anybody could get a sequel to a bomb (ie: not breaking even) greenlit by staying in a purely producing role. And again, the obvious answer is a resounding no.
Avatar is not on the high end of marketing compared to literally any other tentpole in the same budget range. I'm also not sure why you're harping on about the incredible gamble Avatar was and the fact that nobody but Cameron could have gotten that budget. This is obvious for reasons that we have already talked about - but mainly because Cameron was the motherfucking director of Avatar, not simply the producer. Why are you going into the history of Avatar's unlikely ability to be made under anybody but Cameron when that is a completely different conversation that everybody already knows and agrees with?
You changing the circumstances of Strange Days bombing by saying 'maybe if it DIDN'T bomb, if it broke even! etc!' is again, changing the conversation. Nobody is arguing that a Battle Angel sequel is impossible if Alita breaks even. What we are arguing, is whether a sequel would get greenlit if the first film doesn't break even, purely because Cameron (as a producer) wants one.
This is the initial ridiculous claim you proposed and what we've been talking about the entire time. Stop changing the conversation.
How are we "changing the conversation"?
This is the the "conversation" that you say I'm changing, where TheVoid made this response to me
To which I even said to you
Sounds like you lost the plot and are trying to put that on me.
Well then I apologize. The underlined combination muddled my understanding of what you were trying to say:
And whilst there is precedence after a long lull after a bomb with Blade Runner receiving a sequel from WB three decades later, the underlined is highly unlikely so soon thereafter.
Watched it today. It was better than I expected, honestly. Dialogue was pretty bad, but I really liked the performance from the girl who plays Alita. Waltz also seemed to be having some fun with it.
OVA did it better with a shorter runtime.
What happens to chiren always feels real shitty. Was hoping for a change instead of putting her in a fridge. Jashugan got done dirty too.
I loathe the setup of sequels in movies. Just make a solid concise film for fuck sakes, if the material supports a sequel then it shouldn't be a problem.
Fair enough. When I was saying a film "isn't particularly strong" I wasn't referring to a bomb or using the phrase as a euphemism for a bomb, but a movie that maybe just missed breaking even or that could even extend to a very modest success; not weak but modest in strength at best, which is how I thought of breaking even. Some may essentially see breaking even as a failure, but I was pointing out that while it can sometimes be interpreted in the industry that way, I was saying that if there was shown to be interest (at least in breaking even), that maybe Cameron can tilt the scales to give the franchise another shot because sometimes that's all a movie needs is someone on that level to champion it.
I don't think WB is the norm, nor is it to say they do not care about movie box office performance, but my point was to illustrate that the "rules" for what movies get money to be made or what gets sequels, isn't so cut and dry and that Cameron has a lot of influence if he wishes to exert it. If Alita bombs, I think Cameron and everyone will see the writing on the wall and not attempt to push forward with a sequel that has no hope of recouping it's investment, but if there is a chance that a sequel can work out the kinks and improve on the original, then reach a bigger audience and find more success, there is a chance for a sequel, even if the movie only broke or maybe even if it just barely missed breaking even. The IP doesn't have the same cultural cachet as a well known superhero IP or a popular book series like Harry Potter where even a failure will have a studio keep trying to make a hit, but I think that for studios, James Cameron has that cachet and if he's invested in something, even if it's a crazy anime like Alita, it's easy to have faith in him that he sees something special in that material, being that he's so passionate about it, that he'll be able to deliver on if you gave him a chance.
I saw it for the second time, I really had a hard time getting past the endless miasma of green screens. Was a lot harder to notice on 3D / XD
Never read the manga or any other material, but was a huge fan of this movie. The whole universe gave off a very cyberpunk vibe, and did a pretty good job of explaining the important parts alojg the way. Doc and Alita were both great performances, as well as Mahershala Ali in the bit of screen time he got. Conolleys character and Hugo were both a bit weak, but they didn't seem to be super strong characters to begin with. Overall a really great introduction to the universe as a whole, hope it ends up doing well enough to get picked up.
I'll be checking out the manga soon enough. I'd always heard of it, but never had the desire to check it out until now.
I'll be checking out the manga soon enough. I'd always heard of it, but never had the desire to check it out until now.
The ending was anime as fuck. How often do we run into a manga adaptation that requires going back to the source of material to see what happens? Berserk, Fruit Basket, etc., etc. It was kinda fun seeing that translate to the big screen.
By the way, for the people who hate Jai Courtnay : if we get a sequel and properly follow the manga, i'm sorry to say that he will become a major character.
Because yes, he's in the movie as a cameo of a quite important character later on. Might i say : a pivotal character for Alita. As a worthy adversary, but not a villain.
For those who missed him in the movie, he plays Jashugan, a Motorball player we see fight and then getting repaired when Hugo brings Alita to the Arena.
Because yes, he's in the movie as a cameo of a quite important character later on. Might i say : a pivotal character for Alita. As a worthy adversary, but not a villain.
For those who missed him in the movie, he plays Jashugan, a Motorball player we see fight and then getting repaired when Hugo brings Alita to the Arena.
Out of all the talk about this film, I'm surprised I haven't seen more mentions of Rodriguez's influence. The talk of Motorball, the mech designs, and the cheesy dialogue/side-characters screamed Spy Kids 3 to me. I wanna say it also reminded me of Tron: Legacy. Rosa's acting and the overall execution is what gave Alita the edge over your typical blockbuster for me.