Should these mot win simple because you guys are scared of the precedent? Like fuck them if they win the consequences would be to dire in the hypothetical situation I created in my head from knowing the future
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Alfonso Ribeiro Sues Fortnite and NBA 2K Creators for Stealing Carlton Dance(Update: Backpack Kid sues Epic as well)
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My point was never that he could win the case, my point was that you can copyright dance moves, which he, for the last time, confirmed at the very start of the video and that Carlton boy has a chance at winning this.
Why? So say you award that copyright, what's next logically? The accent an actor decides on, an adlib joke of 3 words? A single mannerism? One texture or object in an entire game being copyrighted by a designer instead of the studio?
It's stupid and simply leads to destroying any future inspiration or innovations or reimagining that industries and artists constantly call upon to derive their work.
Do you really want the memes being outlawed shit again? There is a reason you can reuse certain amounts of timings of songs or videos etc without paying royalties. Now if EPIC designed a character that looked like, moved like (danced), sounded like, talked like Carlton etc then fuck them that's totally infringement. But perpetuating a 2 second dance that is not the whole embodiment of a character? Come on...
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory commentary. Long history of infractions for similar behaviour.
If anything it's a compliment that black culture pervades popular products. I'm white and my tastes are full of black artists. I dont even see a colour, I see people who's work I enjoy.
I mean if anything if Epic hasn't said something along the lines of "any dances resembling anything in the real world is a complete coincidence" then they're open to get sued.
You don't need to know the future to know how companies use and abuse copyright, genius.
Nope, you're the one who talked about precedent being made and after being asked what that precedent was you failed to produce evidence of it. My point wasn't that he's going to win, my point was that you can copyright these things, which you can.
The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claims. I provided mine, now where's yours?
Maybe one day a case might get close, but it isn't this one.
I'm saying attorneys are in the business to create "carefully curated opinions" that say everything but, this will never win in court. It doesn't make him any less armchair, or wrong or right. Lawyers do lose cases and drop cases all the time. Did you watch the video? He is no more armchair than anyone else here. And he actually does explain the difference with copyrighting a dance versus copying a performance. He literally doesn't refute what anyone has said in here, while floating alot of hypothesis or why it may or may not be successful. This is literally what civil lawyers do!
The bad thing is that these people are so hellbent on the law and what this could possibly cause yet ignores the possibility of a new law being put in place. Like its fucking impossible.
Thank you. I would say something like this but I aint got the patience and I figured hes just misunderstood.
This really is a circus...why did you forget that part where Epic is charging people for this dance?
As far as I know, if I decided to sketch a character right now; it would automatically be copyrighted...should be the same for any art form...
If I created a really popular meme and a corporate entity used it you betcha. I'm suprised the "What are those" guy didnt try to go after Disney/Marvel for BP...
Most those other examples are just the arm swinging which might be considered too generic to make a claim on. The Fortnite dance goes further and you'd be hard pushed to claim he wasn't the influence. Now we just have to find out if you can copyright a dance sequence that only last a few seconds.
He's literally wrong here. You can copyright choreography but you cannot copyright individual dance movements:
But maybe they won't abuse it. Maybe this can be a good thing for the creative industry, maybe-
Fucking lol at anyone who thinks more copyright muscle in the corporate arm is just what this world was missing.
Just like people in this thread, that man doesn't understand what can be copyrighted.
You have provided zero evidence. Google proves no one has won suing over a dance move. Your case is dead.
Remember, he talks about thresholds and the dance having to meet it. He's not wrong, and he explained what you have to do to meet that threshold. He even stated that small back and forth moves cannot be copyrighted.
I'm still waiting on your evidence of precedent set. Until you provide it, I'm gonna ignore you.
It's not 2 seconds.
But as I've said before, Alfonso has used The Carlton as part of his full performance on TV before Fortnite even became a thing. So yea it's like taking 10 seconds out of a 3 minute dance performance.
Check here what Hobbs said here when I asked what if someone takes a few seconds long from a full performance.
Of all things. Like his dance is named after the character on the show he played. If anyone has an argument its possibly him.
I'm just about seeing people who deserve it get paid.
As I said, copyright laws should change on this, and it can be...this is how laws work, they change/new ones are added all the time. Donald just set forth a law for digital music that makes sure the artists get paid (one good thing to come out of his office so far)...
It's disgusting how much Epic now "owns" the dance moves and make millions off them...
OP
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This sounds pretty flexible honestly. Do they detail how a routine is defined, how many unique moves are required, how long the routine must last, etc? Is a 45 second "routine" consisting of a single but unique dance move less able to be copyrighted than a 2 minute long routine but made up solely of less unique / existing moves?
Do you HONESTLY think record companies that would own all the dance moves that almost every popular singer does would just sit on these copyrights and choose not to enforce them? I Mean come on, ANYONE that's been alive through the past twenty or so years should know full well that if this is allowed those companies will go to great lengths to exert their copyrights and get any and ALL money they can against anyone that even comes close to using them.
I mean look at the bloody birthday song for crying out loud to see how far a company will go to enforce copyright, even in a "gray" area.
If the script read, "[Carlton dances]" then any dance Alfonso made up is the sole property of NBC. It might be different if it was an ad-lib on his part, but the dance is in the script. Anything he "creates" while on the clock for NBC, becomes NBC's.
He won't win. NBC might have a case, though. If he does somehow manage to get something out of it, he could get sued by NBC.
The dance is "The Carlton", not "The Alfonso". He was the character, but he doesn't own the character.
Because they are not charging for "Carlton" as a whole character, just like I explained in my original post above. It's a very basic dance move, barely a sequence of moves. Further in all the years post Fresh Prince he's never once sued for use of the dance, never attempted to copyright it etc.
It's a fine line on Carlton's dance specifically but not one I consider passing the threshold of being a rip off. As I said if they sold a character that looks like Carlton, sounds like Carlton and dances like Carlton then it's in breach and fuck them. A single 2 to 3 step dance manoeuvrer isn't copyright worthy to me.
Erhm, the dance is improvised but based on another dance. He makes it his own when he does.
Regarding if it's NBCs, that's only if his contract stipulates that anything created on the show is the property of NBC's.
Thing is about the "carlton" dance in particular, if you watch any footage of old sock hop dances people were basically doing this, which by the character was used more like a parody of corny dancing. He didn't create it, he mimicked it. There is a great video by Axis of Awesome that best shows this in the music world, how a 4 chord song has been reused for so many songs.
https://youtu.be/5pidokakU4I
Imagine none of those songs ever existing because the first song using that chord progression was locked down in copyright. They don't allow copyright of chords, which I think is similar to a dance move.
Now, imagine what would happen in the gaming world where games already get delisted because of license expirations. Is it really worth it? Uncharted, Destiny, and other examples in this thread would have to be taken of the market. I don't think that anyone wants that, nor do I think that the courts will decide these are copyright violations.
https://youtu.be/5pidokakU4I
Imagine none of those songs ever existing because the first song using that chord progression was locked down in copyright. They don't allow copyright of chords, which I think is similar to a dance move.
Now, imagine what would happen in the gaming world where games already get delisted because of license expirations. Is it really worth it? Uncharted, Destiny, and other examples in this thread would have to be taken of the market. I don't think that anyone wants that, nor do I think that the courts will decide these are copyright violations.
Good to reach a note of agreement. Alfonso just made poor career choices, he needs to hire a better agent and get out there, rather than suing. Hell he could probably make money streaming himself playing it.
Both.
Time and place. Last thing we want is to literally target one of if not the most inclusive MP game on the market and accuse it of erasing culture since it acknowledges that said culture exists and that a large portion of it's player base are a part of that culture.
It's dumb that you can't copyright individual dance moves but you can choreography. The individual moves can be iconic in their own right. No one remembers entire dance routines. They remember specific moves that stood out from the routine.
I don't mean to derail the specific "Carlton dance" narrative, but whilst playing Black Ops 4, one of the new unlockable dance moves is the Jean Claude Van Damme dance sequence from the movie Kickboxer, and my first thought was if they had gotten the permission to use that, thus, how my mind associates certain things with general pop culture. In saying that, I don't know the modern day law interpretation of these things, but I think it's a very interesting topic for sure, and I am interested to see where it goes.
Also, just for clarification, help this middle aged gamer out... Backpack kid, as far as I can piece together, is a kid wearing a backpack in a Katy Perry video coming out and doing a dance called the floss, right?
Also, just for clarification, help this middle aged gamer out... Backpack kid, as far as I can piece together, is a kid wearing a backpack in a Katy Perry video coming out and doing a dance called the floss, right?
So should these guys get fucked over because you're worried about what may or my not happen? Answer that
Clearly you nor I know what this could cause if they win but what we do know is Alfonso has a damn good case
That's my entire point they are so worried about a what if they dont care about the people affected now smh
That means absolutely nothing you cross that bridge when we get there until then you fairly look at the cases in front of you not add some hypothetical baggage on them because you are worried about the outcome
So here's a take on why it's not copyright worthy...Alfonso literally explains himself where the inspiration comes from (source)-
This has more style and popularised his moves but is it that different to the below two they should all receive their own individual copyright? His process is exactly why I feel it's not copyright worthy. Imagine Eddie Murphy suing Alfonso before Fresh Prince really took off. Silly.
Nah man, it's cool and he's likened it to his character but the dance on its own? It's a no from me. Also Alfonso never felt the need to pay royalties to Eddie or The Boss right?
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I ain't no lawyer but that's not very layman.
So, if I may try and understand, going off what I was told about copyright during high school music class, is it like this;
I can make a dance routine featuring several moves, one of which is more or less virtually identical to the 2 milly move, but not in its entirety, then that wouldn't be copyright infringement.
If however I was to just use the 2 milly move and nothing else, that would be copyright infringement.
Am I understanding that right?
*what will 100% factually happen because it's literally how these things work. There's quite literally no way around that. That you think otherwise just tells me how ignorant you are of the current music industry and draconian copyright laws.
Absolutely! It's hilarious, he won't even get a settlement.
Honestly its the same people who argue in these threads. Its like we start at 0 all over again when a new thread pops up.
Videogame companies are the first ones to throw copyright laws, send you c&d for your fan work and make sure no one uses closely or not so closely their work but they have no issues pillaging other art forms and calling it « hommages ».
The hypocrisy is baffling
I hope Alfonso wins and they get a taste of their medicine.
The hypocrisy is baffling
I hope Alfonso wins and they get a taste of their medicine.