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metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,564
This is a good reminder that there is a human at the other end of a lot of this and while we'll probably never know the full story it sounds like this person was sick and tried to get help and not malicious.

People really need to consider what they're doing to folks in these cases. While some people definitely are, not everyone is a piece of human garbage cause they did something wrong.

Blaming assault on mental illness is insulting to the millions of people with mental illness who dont go out and assault women. I could believe that he went and got help and might not be the same person but we should not absolve people from their actions because of mental health concerns.
 

Minky

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
481
UK
This is definitely the worst possible outcome for all involved. Tragic for Alec and his family, that should go without saying. It's an extremely complicated thing to unwrap sensitively, and will take a lot of time to properly process. But, predictably, I'm already seeing people weaponize this in order to further silence and blame victims of abuse; this is absolutely not okay, and by far the most counterproductive (and frankly disgusting) thing to do in this situation. No reasonable person should be arguing the horribleness of this outcome. But discussion should absolutely not be discouraged. There is a right way to go about this.
 

DoradoWinston

Member
Apr 9, 2019
6,122
Damn....didn't expect this.

It should have never ended like this. He did terrible things but he also shouldnt have reached the point that he did.
 
User Banned (permanent): blaming victims of sexual assault who came forward for their victimizer's suicide
I find it sad that Zoe didn't mention anything about Alec's previous experience as a victim or his mental health issues, you would think she would have considering she's a huge advocate for victims and knows exactly how shitty mass harassment can be. It's definitely better for victims to come forward but I don't think she fully thought about the effect it would have by tweeting it out to her massive following.
 

Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,997
Sad all around. If he really did get therapy and turn his life around, it was a shame he didn't take the opportunity to show it and potentially help others. Sad for the victim, sad for the family, and sad for Alec.
 

Dorkmgl

Member
Oct 26, 2017
72
User Banned (1 month): blaming victims of sexual assault who came forward for their victimizer's suicide
Blaming assault on mental illness is insulting to the millions of people with mental illness who dont go out and assault women
Not saying its wrong just that he didn't deserve to die for it either. The ideal solution would be to treat him. Its just as mentally ill to dox the guy to kill himself. Being a victim gives you no right to turn someone else into a victim. You'd think victims would understand that the most.

If you wanna have a debate about how we handle mental illness here and how poor that is, I'm open to it. Thats a much bigger problem.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
This is a good reminder that there is a human at the other end of a lot of this and while we'll probably never know the full story it sounds like this person was sick and tried to get help and not malicious.

People really need to consider what they're doing to folks in these cases. While some people definitely are, not everyone is a piece of human garbage cause they did something wrong.

Sure, but then like... what should actually be done about crime in general?

Alec committed a bunch of really terrible crimes and his mental illness probably contributed to his crimes. It seems incredibly unclear that if Alec had gone to prison back in 2014 for this, that we would have a better outcome than him losing friends over it in 2019.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Fuck man. I know "both-sidesing" is usually bullshit, but this is the one time I'm willing to pull it.

People on Twitter calling for Zoe's head are obviously ridiculous, and I think anyone on Era can agree on that. But people on Twitter (and HERE) celebrating Holowka's death are just as vile. Like are we not on the same page here? Do we not believe in rehabilitation?

Are The Gamers really that incapable of taking the blinders off and realizing that not everything is a game? There are no "sides." Nobody fucking won here, and nobody is going to. This shit isn't a contest. This is a tragedy, every step of the way. Y

I do think there's a middle ground in that people should be more focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment. At the same time it's fucking tedious to see people always bring up the idea false allegations are a super serious issue that destroy men's careers when unproven allegations rarely ever do and in the cases where it happens it's always due to some other reason (usually their skin colour or in cases of suicide it's due to their exact false narrative where they believe their lives will be ruined).
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,135
His past actions were vile but death isn't an outcome desired by any party. Only serves to turn a horrible situation into an even worse one, causing more pain to more people. It's awful he couldn't navigate through his demons and loss of life in this manner is tragic. This doesn't warrant the suppression of victims coming out though, and the weight of his internal conflict shouldn't be expected to be borne by those who suffered the consequences of it.

It's an awful end to a horrible series of events.
 

Matticers

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,197
The internet just isn't the right way to go about exposing stuff like this. I don't know what the right way is or how to make things better for everyone involved but I don't think this is the way to do it. Now Zoe is just going to get even more hate and she might feel some sort of guilt as well, and a guy took his own life because all of his wrongdoings were out there for everyone to see and he felt like he would never come back from it. It's just a lose/lose for everyone involved. Not saying anyone is in the wrong here and Alec is responsible for his own actions but there has to be a better way to help everyone involved in situations like this.
 

Dorkmgl

Member
Oct 26, 2017
72
Sure, but then like... what should actually be done about crime in general?

Alec committed a bunch of really terrible crimes and his mental illness probably contributed to his crimes. It seems incredibly unclear that if Alec had gone to prison back in 2014 for this, that we would have a better outcome than him losing friends over it in 2019.

The right answer is to properly deal with mental illness instead of the typical answer here of ignoring it until its catastrophic.
 

Just_a_Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
I find it sad that Zoe didn't mention anything about Alec's previous experience as a victim or his mental health issues, you would think she would have considering she's a huge advocate for victims and knows exactly how shitty mass harassment can be. It's definitely better for victims to come forward but I don't think she fully thought about the effect it would have by tweeting it out to her massive following.

You don't get to put any of the blame on Zoe, she is the victim in this tragedy. This post is frankly disgusting.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
Maybe not a all out ban but there needs to be harder rules on the tone of the discussion.

The blood lust and automatic cancelling that comes out of people after a random accusations is fucking disgusting.

Just look at early pages of this very thread. Look at the Etika mess a few months ago. You can sweep things under the rug with "staff posts" or we can take steps to fix some underlying issues.
This.

Victims of abuse have a right to air their experiences and call people out, and they should do.

What happens after however, we're seeing that it's not working and it's unsurprising that twitter/reddit/resetera/[insert any social media regarding video games or the internet in general] is unable to deal with it in the correct way.

Yeah, it's real easy and convenient to see the world in terms of Good Vs Bad, but when you do things like this happen. Good people can do terrible things, terrible people can do good things, the world and people are far more complex than people realise.

I would hope this and the Etika situation will be examples to revise the approach on issues like these, although in all likelihood it won't.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,914
For people who want to "ban discussion" there is an ignore thread feature for a reason. Besides this is a discussion forum don't click the thread if you don't want to deal with the "drama". I promise you there are thousands of threads where this isn't being discussed.

Truly horrible situation all around. I worry that abuse victims will be concerned to speak out for fear of having "blood on their hands".

I think people welcome genuine discussion, but often that discussion veers into the gutter and is counterproductive. People don't want to see things devolve into a spectacle or something akin to a team sport. It really strips the humanity of the situation away.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,564
Not saying its wrong just that he didn't deserve to die for it either. The ideal solution would be to treat him. Its just as mentally ill to dox the guy to kill himself. Being a victim gives you no right to turn someone else into a victim. You'd think victims would understand that the most.

If you wanna have a debate about how we handle mental illness here and how poor that is, I'm open to it. Thats a much bigger problem.

I dont think 99% of people here would disagree with you. Calling for accountability is far different than calling for someone to hurt themselves though and I think the majority of what's been done here was the former
 

hyouko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,217
We need to keep having these discussions, painful though they usually are. Ignoring the toxicity will just let it fester.

Like boy power I often find myself wishing for more empathy and recognition of the human in said discussions. It's possible for bad actors to wield that concern as a tone-policing club, though. There's no one-size-fits-all answer.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
The right answer is to properly deal with mental illness instead of the typical answer here of ignoring it until its catastrophic.

I'm pretty sure violence caused by mental illness is dealt with via involuntarily restricting them from certain areas for some period of time in every country in the world.

Whether these prisons are good or bad prisons. But still, even if the US had a very good prison system that treated the mentally ill well and was strong on rehab, he still would have been exposed to his friends and colleagues as a violent criminal... Does any of that have a better outcome for him than what happened in 2019? I'm not sure.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
So bullying someone into suicide is the best we can do and we shouldn't try do better ourselves or have any kind of retrospective self criticism.

Gotta.

End of discussion indeed.
It's pretty telling that you pay lip service introspection, but don't actually perform any. You're not trying to understand what BDS said. You're just being mad at her.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
That's pretty much just the same post as the shitty post about celebrating him dying, just cleaned up a bit.

No it's not. It's a post about how victims don't have avenues besides social media because of a broken system. It's concluding that it's not the victim's fault that this situation had a bad end, but a consequence of the abuser's actions and his personal life. That's very different from "we should be celebrating that he died"
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,658
His past actions were vile but death isn't an outcome desired by any party. Only serves to turn a horrible situation into an even worse one, causing more pain to more people. It's awful he couldn't navigate through his demons and loss of life in this manner is tragic. This doesn't warrant the suppression of victims coming out though, and the weight of his internal conflict shouldn't be expected to be borne by those who suffered the consequences of it.

It's an awful end to a horrible series of events.

Exactly. Nobody wins when an abuser dies before they can get treatment and before the victims can get justice.

I know rape is a terrible crime. Believe me, I know. It happened to me. But sitting here hoping that abusers get killed or kill themselves because we want to feel better about ourselves only perpetuates a cycle of hatred that makes us into monsters. Nobody should be cheering for this, nobody should be happy about this.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
I feel like a good discussion should be had about etiquette regarding how to voice your support for victims on the internet and elsewhere. A lot of people take it on their own hands to send a-l-l-e-g-e-d abusers all sorts of filth, when instead they could be sending positive thoughts to victims, and making the decision to not support the products of abusers. I don't get how that is too hard to understand?

I also think another discussion should be had about forgiveness, about hoping people would get better, hoping they get the help they need to shake off their abusive behavior. But a lot of people are afraid of that conversation, because showing empathy and acknowledging that an abuser needs help, and is in the end a human too, is hard to do.

I don't know man, I really have a hard time understanding the world around me right now.

I agree with what your saying. With that said, part of destroying abuse and stopping abusers is isolating them, spreading knowledge, and showing others that they are doing bad things. Imagine if Alec had come back, would it be right for him to do so even if he offered penance? What if the penance was declined by his victims as they have the rights to do so?

Should we ask his victims to step aside for society to move on? I don't think that's the right answer.

This kind of reminds me of the prison model. Rehabilitation vs punishment, at what point can a felon move on, how much they do they get back?

No. Why would any of us celebrate his death?

"He died cause he was driven to it. I'm sorry he died, but not sorry for driving him to it." I see why it's difficult to be confused "I'm sorry he died" but on the other hand be happy he was driven to it.
 

Dorkmgl

Member
Oct 26, 2017
72
I dont think 99% of people here would disagree with you. Calling for accountability is far different than calling for someone to hurt themselves though and I think the majority of what's been done here was the former

I think you hit the key of the point I'm trying to make.

Its Zoe or whoevers job to get the appropriate people involved. Not to dish the punishment.

Again if people wanna argue the failings of law enforcement or mental health thats fine but we can't just ignore due process and witchhunt people as victims either.

This is basically the perfect example of an eye for an eye justice only in this case the other guy was more sensitive and killed himself even though he was the assaulter.
 

mrtl

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
827
User banned (permanent): attacking a victim of sexual assault and blaming her for a suicide.
You don't get to put any of the blame on Zoe, she is the victim in this tragedy. This post is frankly disgusting.
She knows what consequences of actions are, what mental issues mean, that hate groups exist on the internet, yet she felt, for one reason or another, to dump a personal issue online involving other people. What the flying fuck was going on in her head when she said all this? If someone's going to dump his or her life story on the internet, fine. She invaded the privacy of someone else on the account of being "a victim". I'm sure she's a delightful person. Not.
 

Psychonaut

Member
Jan 11, 2018
3,207
I do think there's a middle ground in that people should be more focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment. At the same time it's fucking tedious to see people always bring up the idea false allegations are a super serious issue that destroy men's careers when unproven allegations rarely ever do and in the cases where it happens it's always due to some other reason (usually their skin colour or in cases of suicide it's due to their exact false narrative where they believe their lives will be ruined).
I'm with you on all of this. The thing is, the people talking about false allegations destroying men's career aren't walking that middle-ground. They clearly just say that to implicitly declare the accusations in question as false and discredit the accuser. We should all be wishes for rehabilitation for all parties. Calling for anyone's neck (and celebrating if you get it) solves nothing.
 

Deleted member 5159

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,704
this sucks but she was brave and did something that needed to be done, and not only for her sake and health. That said, It's extremely messed up that the guy killed himself and that random mobs of people on the internet love to play the virtual activist and get between shit that they have no business getting into.

Just back the victim, show her/him your support and heavily condemn the acts of the abuser without getting your pitchforks on.
 

Just_a_Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
She knows what consequences of actions are, what mental issues mean, that hate groups exist on the internet, yet she felt, for one reason or another, to dump a personal issue online involving other people. What the flying fuck was going on in her head when she said all this? If someone's going to dump his or her life story on the internet, fine. She invaded the privacy of someone else on the account of being "a victim". I'm sure she's a delightful person. Not.

Another victim blaming gator to report in this thread.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,276
Midgar, With Love
So bullying someone into suicide is the best we can do and we shouldn't try do better ourselves or have any kind of retrospective self criticism.

Gotta.

End of discussion indeed.

3613.jpg
 

shuno

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
625
He didn't deserve death.
He did deserve being cut off from positions of power and employment opportunity in the industry he was an abuser.
Literally no one in those posts was wishing for death as the outcome.

Odd enough though, the user who literally wrote that he deserved death got a shorter ban then the user you quoted (who just posted a summary of the initial reactions).
 

freetacos

Member
Oct 30, 2017
13,267
Bay Area, CA
I think you hit the key of the point I'm trying to make.

Its Zoe or whoevers job to get the appropriate people involved. Not to dish the punishment.

Again if people wanna argue the failings of law enforcement or mental health thats fine but we can't just ignore due process and witchhunt people as victims either.

This is basically the perfect example of an eye for an eye justice only in this case the other guy was more sensitive and killed himself even though he was the assaulter.
Zoe didn't "dish the punishment" though? What the fuck is this post? Stop fucking victim blaming
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,571
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
She knows what consequences of actions are, what mental issues mean, that hate groups exist on the internet, yet she felt, for one reason or another, to dump a personal issue online involving other people. What the flying fuck was going on in her head when she said all this? If someone's going to dump his or her life story on the internet, fine. She invaded the privacy of someone else on the account of being "a victim". I'm sure she's a delightful person. Not.
uhh

you do know what power imbalances are right

there's a reason why victims do it publicly even if it will hurt them too. there is no other way. that's why it was an "open secret" for so long. why do you think that is? abusers don't want it to be public, they have everything to gain by it being kept "personal", that's how abusers maintain their power.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
She knows what consequences of actions are, what mental issues mean, that hate groups exist on the internet, yet she felt, for one reason or another, to dump a personal issue online involving other people. What the flying fuck was going on in her head when she said all this? If someone's going to dump his or her life story on the internet, fine. She invaded the privacy of someone else on the account of being "a victim". I'm sure she's a delightful person. Not.
This is one of the shittiest takes I've read in a while.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,564
I think you hit the key of the point I'm trying to make.

Its Zoe or whoevers job to get the appropriate people involved. Not to dish the punishment.

Again if people wanna argue the failings of law enforcement or mental health thats fine but we can't just ignore due process and witchhunt people as victims either.

This is basically the perfect example of an eye for an eye justice only in this case the other guy was more sensitive and killed himself even though he was the assaulter.

Ok nah I'm going to completely disagree here. You ignore the fact that there is basically no chance for the justice system to convict this guy in this case and she would have to go through a lengthy trial and be demeaned for no benefit. People also speak out because they want to prevent their abusers from continuing to do what they do.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
She knows what consequences of actions are, what mental issues mean, that hate groups exist on the internet, yet she felt, for one reason or another, to dump a personal issue online involving other people. What the flying fuck was going on in her head when she said all this? If someone's going to dump his or her life story on the internet, fine. She invaded the privacy of someone else on the account of being "a victim". I'm sure she's a delightful person. Not.

Okay so like

Does this turn out any better for Alec if Zoe goes to the police in 2014 and he's arrested and imprisoned for assault and rape.

What options should be taken here.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,414
Australia
at this point i genuinely believe it would be best if we banned all discussion of game devs' personal affairs from this forum because it is clear too many people on era cannot handle this shit in a reasonable way. it's a tragedy that alec's victims had to make this a public issue to get anything done about it because the internet at large lacks the humanity to not just harass and ridicule and insult everyone involved, right up until shit like this happens.

zoe, alec, and everyone else's lives are not a fucking soap opera for us to watch with popcorn in hand, rooting for our favorite teams and hooting and hollering at every new twist and turn. they are human beings dealing with complex personal issues that we know very little about other than what is presented to us (which is very little). era culture has reached the point where, in an attempt to project "wokeness", too many of us are treating other people's lives with all the delicacy of an internet console war argument. even now, in this very thread, after everything that's happened.

most of you didn't know alec. most of you don't know zoe. we're all just random people on the internet engaging in voyeurism over some shit that frankly was not and is not our fucking business. stop ripping each other's throats out about it and leave everyone involved alone.

Very well put, completely agree.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,185
This is indeed a difficult situation, but we had two people commit suicide because of mental illness and people on here sometimes ignore that or straight insult it sometimes. This situation involved sexual harassment so I get why people lunged at him way harsher, but there must be a way for him to get punished without everybody jumping on him to commit suicide. I just feel that this is going to happen again and want to see some sort of way we can avoid it.
You have it wrong.

If people are "jumping on him to commit suicide" they should be banned. Easy. I didn't see that myself but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened here.

But you absolutely need to stop framing the reaction as being so horrible and then what Alec did as "sexual harassment" (it is accurate but betrays the severity). Have you read what Zeo wrote? Forcible confinement, sexual assault. Absolutely disgusting and violent shit.

It is horrible that he was a victim of abuse, clearly had mental health issues and ultimately committed suicide. It is absolutely horrible. But that doesn't mean we as a community stop talking about exposing abusers or giving victims forums to break their silence or pretend that this is somehow all divorced from the industry.
 

hjort

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,096
There are many deaths that I'm prepared to celebrate, but this isn't one of them. Huge tragedy all around. For Zoe, for Alec and for all their family and friends. I want victims to speak up, I want the victims to be supported, I want the abusers to assume responsibility for what they've done, but I don't want things to end like this. This is just yet another terrible thing that the people around both victim and abuser will have to carry with them for the rest of their lives, and nothing has gotten better because of it.
 
May 26, 2018
24,020
You guys are seriously blaming victims, we should be celebrating this, Zoe got her abuser back in the end

Things like this should be handled on a ... better scale, I want to say? Obviously victims deserve help. Absolutely and definitively. It's necessary to the health of all people. I just wish we had a healthier way to ensure that, too. Long term, how does our society as a whole react to this? What are the consequences down the road? What creates abusers? Killers? Cycles of revenge? How can we help prevent those things without caving in? All thoughts worth exploring without sacrificing our care for victims. Caring for victims should be the primary motivation behind all this.

I wish I could say with 100% confidence this is precisely why we have laws. To handle crime as a society, to "digest" it properly so that deeply destructive chaos isn't fermented as a response to what people need on individual bases. Even if it isn't functioning like we want today, it's not a bad principle. In theory, it's a potent tool. I'd love to see it get better.

None of this is easy. It's not easy to talk about -- at least for me, as I wonder if by making this post I'm hurting others -- and it's hard to know what we should do next.
 

MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,463
at this point i genuinely believe it would be best if we banned all discussion of game devs' personal affairs from this forum because it is clear too many people on era cannot handle this shit in a reasonable way. it's a tragedy that alec's victims had to make this a public issue to get anything done about it because the internet at large lacks the humanity to not just harass and ridicule and insult everyone involved, right up until shit like this happens.

zoe, alec, and everyone else's lives are not a fucking soap opera for us to watch with popcorn in hand, rooting for our favorite teams and hooting and hollering at every new twist and turn. they are human beings dealing with complex personal issues that we know very little about other than what is presented to us (which is very little). era culture has reached the point where, in an attempt to project "wokeness", too many of us are treating other people's lives with all the delicacy of an internet console war argument. even now, in this very thread, after everything that's happened.

most of you didn't know alec. most of you don't know zoe. we're all just random people on the internet engaging in voyeurism over some shit that frankly was not and is not our fucking business. stop ripping each other's throats out about it and leave everyone involved alone.
Great post.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,658
She knows what consequences of actions are, what mental issues mean, that hate groups exist on the internet, yet she felt, for one reason or another, to dump a personal issue online involving other people. What the flying fuck was going on in her head when she said all this? If someone's going to dump his or her life story on the internet, fine. She invaded the privacy of someone else on the account of being "a victim". I'm sure she's a delightful person. Not.

I'm going to do you a favor and assume you're being genuine here and not just saying shit to turn the tide of discussion against an accuser.

The reason Zoe posted what she did was because the law enforcement system does nothing to help victims of assault. One of the only ways to force the justice system's hand is by making these cases so public that the system can't ignore them any longer. That's why Zoe posted what she did, and that's why the ORIGINAL accuser did what she did. We have to talk about these things, and we have to talk about them openly or the system will never change.

The consequences for committing assault (public humiliation, loss of employment opportunities, etc) have to be clear enough that it deters future abusers from ever making the choice to step over that line in the first place.

That does not mean Alec deserved to die - far from it - but Zoe and Rebecca posting about their experiences did not kill him.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,271
Truly horrible situation all around. I worry that abuse victims will be concerned to speak out for fear of having "blood on their hands".

This will one hundred percent be the de facto reality going forward, for a long time, more so than it's been until now. But victims should not be beholden to the risks of their speaking about what they went through, and it will go frequently unmentioned that Holowka lived a troubled life that, in sum, led to his passing, not this single event. And it's not without a degree of sadness that i realize it will forever be seen as more important for the collective community to prefer talking about the mental health of men (as it's been a real concern, and hardly ever discussed without it being made a wall to speak of other topics) to the detriment of conversations about the reality of sexual harassment in this industry.

And, speaking personally, while it is obvious that it's crass, unnecessary, and hurtful to see his passing in a positive light, it's important to acknowledge that victims might see it as a relief too, and i don't think they should be blamed for feeling like that either.
 
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