I think we have to find out a way forward, together. Hopefully something that can be societal instead of individual.
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Alec Holowka (Night in the Woods, TowerFall) accused of sexual assault [Update: Alec Holowka has reportedly passed away] [See staff posts/threadmarks]
- Thread starter TacomaSCDisaster
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So she should have kept quiet? You seem to offer no solutions.
User banned (3 days): backseat moderation
I think it's time we let the focus of this forum exclusively for gaming and the good vibes of video games. Let twitter problems be left on twitter. We should focus only on games. These types of threads should be banned. It's toxic and no good to anyone. Toxic twitter discussions should be left on twitter.
Banning discussion of these topics isn't good. It might be good though for mods to, as you say, "strongly ask users not to jump to conclusions." We have mod posts in just about every dumb epic games store thread providing discussion and moderation guidelines. That might be helpful in threads about more serious allegations too. Having a "don't jump to conclusions" policy might not be a bad idea. I don't know how you'd enforce it or where the line is drawn, but it's a good guideline at least. Of course that shouldn't stop anyone from taking accusations seriously and believing victims. That is very important. We have to find a common ground.
However I don't think better moderation on ResetERA is going to save the world. This is an internet problem at large, and I don't think anyone is going to stop twitter people from going nuts. You can see it right now. One person just committed suicide and now the internet is aiming another hate mob at someone else. Have we learned nothing?
I've been stuck on why I'm of such two minds about this and I think it's because where this story started is very different from where it ended up.
I think it's very important that people be able to publicly say "there is someone in this industry that isn't safe, and here is why," not just for the sanity of the people who don't know they have a shared experience, but for the people who don't know that they're potentially walking into a trap. The inability of people to do this before has led to situations like John K., John Lasseter, et al.
However, once we move into territory like "this person has killed himself," then it stops being a PSA. It's worth knowing that it happened, someone of significance is lost from a community and a medium and that's worth marking, and it's a good opportunity for us to reflect and talk about things like mental health and the ripple effects of abuse. Beyond that however, there's not much else to say beside finger-pointing or guesses as to someone's intent. I think maybe it's possible that this thread was necessary when it was first posted, and now we're at a point where there isn't a lot of useful discussion left to be had that wouldn't be better covered by a thread with a much broader topic.
Clarified original quote to note that it may be a deactivation as opposed to a deletion. A deactivation happens instantly, but you can set the account to automatically return after 30 days or 12 months.
From the user perspective a deleted and deactivated account appears the same. ("This user doesn't exist.")
Maybe not a all out ban but there needs to be harder rules on the tone of the discussion.
The blood lust and automatic cancelling that comes out of people after a random accusations is fucking disgusting.
Just look at early pages of this very thread. Look at the Etika mess a few months ago. You can sweep things under the rug with "staff posts" or we can take steps to fix some underlying issues.
You want to look for a villain here, look at Twitter. Twitter is the problem. It's ALWAYS been the problem. Giving people the ability to just throw fireballs at ANYONE without a second thought was never the kind of thing we should have been trusted with, and Jack Dorsey doesn't give one remote fraction of a shit about improving the system to make harassment-storms go away.
So she should've just said nothing? Is that what you're pushing?
Of course we are the court of public opinion. Forums, Twitter, Reddit, and the rest all make up the court of public opinion. I don't disagree with everything you posted, but that particular statement is wrong.
Funny thing is - he seems to have been a victim of abuse himself according to his sister. The abusee to abuser switch is a well documented phenomena in psychology.
So had many of these sanctimonious people lambasting him as a monster suffered the same abuse and mental health issues they may well have behaved exactly the same way.
It doesn't excuse any abuse he may have committed, but it certainly changes the context. I'm not going to be so quick to judge, jury and executioner someone when the context of their circumstance may well have led me (or anyone) to the same behaviour.
Nailed it.
Can you point out where I said she should have kept quiet? Or is your only point to put words in peoples mouths?
No. Politics and social situations that are aligned with gaming should be discussed. Don't try to silence people, that's gross.
Please tell me this is sarcasm and that you didn't just reduce the awful, awful shit that Alex did to "twitter problems".
If victims keep silent about abuse, it can also ruin someones life. If other people aren't made aware of it, some will be abused by the same abuser. Going public can ruin the life of the perpetrator, keeping silent can ruin the life of the victims. She didn't make the wrong choice, all other options could have worse consequences.
This is so heartbreaking it hurt hearing this when the news came out and it hurts even worse now that it ended up like this.
You're not addressing the core issue. What other solutions are there?
No one should silence victims. Zoe had every right to be heard publically about the abuse she suffered.
A lot of people in this thread are trying to dismiss sexual assault as internet drama.
i think it would be helpful if many people online realized they could contribute far more to causes they support by donating money or signal boosting the well-crafted words of victims and activists rather than by offering their own hot takes or edgy dunks on important matters
i haven't read most of this thread, so it isn't directed at anyone specific
but i have seen MANY people throughout the internet who prioritize making themselves out to be a Hero in a situation they are not involved in as opposed to actually helping in a quiet manner - if people want to involve themselves in a serious situation they need to take it seriously and consider how their words and actions may harm the causes they claim to support
I think due to the nature of the internet, hate mobs are, if not inevitable, damned hard to avoid in general now.
But something I think people are missing is that even if there's a mob forming on the internet, victims of abuse, assault, and otherwise are often alone against society because the justice system is so fraught with troubles addressing things like that. The "mob" is a way in people are trying to address this and come together for them in cases such as this.
But the internet is an imperfect medium and there are billions of people on it, so mobs will form just by the nature that there's a helluva lot of people on it. i think this is the nature of living in an online world now. There's no way to stop them. Period.
But something I think people are missing is that even if there's a mob forming on the internet, victims of abuse, assault, and otherwise are often alone against society because the justice system is so fraught with troubles addressing things like that. The "mob" is a way in people are trying to address this and come together for them in cases such as this.
But the internet is an imperfect medium and there are billions of people on it, so mobs will form just by the nature that there's a helluva lot of people on it. i think this is the nature of living in an online world now. There's no way to stop them. Period.
You can believe victims and NOT ask for someone's ass to be thrown out of society without a trial. And well, death threats and that shit aren't ok.
PS: Do not understand this as me not believing the victims. Nobody accuses someone of abuse for funsies, nor do I think any kind of spurious interest plays a role.
PS: Do not understand this as me not believing the victims. Nobody accuses someone of abuse for funsies, nor do I think any kind of spurious interest plays a role.
There is something ironic about people angrily barraging Zoe for doing something they accuse her of doing to Alec. Will they realize that they are doing the same shit they state they despise?
This is a tragic situation all round, and I obviously did not want things to go the way they have. Alec Holowka deserved to get the help he clearly needed.
But the people who are are arguing for the silencing of victims are disgusting. I can't believe we have people arguing for it on this site of all places.
But the people who are are arguing for the silencing of victims are disgusting. I can't believe we have people arguing for it on this site of all places.
Miyazaki isn't saying Zoe shouldn't have come forward or that she's in the wrong.
This forum however has a gross tendency to take things way over the line at the drop of a hat.
I feel like a good discussion should be had about etiquette regarding how to voice your support for victims on the internet and elsewhere. A lot of people take it on their own hands to send a-l-l-e-g-e-d abusers all sorts of filth, when instead they could be sending positive thoughts to victims, and making the decision to not support the products of abusers. I don't get how that is too hard to understand?
I also think another discussion should be had about forgiveness, about hoping people would get better, hoping they get the help they need to shake off their abusive behavior. But a lot of people are afraid of that conversation, because showing empathy and acknowledging that an abuser needs help, and is in the end a human too, is hard to do.
I don't know man, I really have a hard time understanding the world around me right now.
I also think another discussion should be had about forgiveness, about hoping people would get better, hoping they get the help they need to shake off their abusive behavior. But a lot of people are afraid of that conversation, because showing empathy and acknowledging that an abuser needs help, and is in the end a human too, is hard to do.
I don't know man, I really have a hard time understanding the world around me right now.
This is indeed a difficult situation, but we had two people commit suicide because of mental illness and people on here sometimes ignore that or straight insult it sometimes. This situation involved sexual harassment so I get why people lunged at him way harsher, but there must be a way for him to get punished without everybody jumping on him to commit suicide. I just feel that this is going to happen again and want to see some sort of way we can avoid it.
Awareness and "discussion" are two very different things. Era has a super sketchy track record with the latter. Most of it doesn't qualify as productive or worth saving. Awareness should be the goal. You can still have a thread on the issue but also rein people in so things don't get out of hand. Eliminating drive-by/low effort posts and marking things as a 'serious' discussion like Reddit does would probably be a good start.
Don't ever broadcast abusers because they might hurt themselves is a nothing stance that if you entertain should get you a swift punch in the teeth.
If some of you suggesting this actually care half as much as you pretend to about the fallout that an abuser receives from the blowback of internet shitlords, direct your ire to the complete disinterest that these social media platforms have about responding to mass harrasment and not the victims actually doing the right thing and calling out their abusers.
If some of you suggesting this actually care half as much as you pretend to about the fallout that an abuser receives from the blowback of internet shitlords, direct your ire to the complete disinterest that these social media platforms have about responding to mass harrasment and not the victims actually doing the right thing and calling out their abusers.
Yeah guys, everyone should just shut the fuck up about an industry that developed a massive abuse problem because of toxic silence in the first place. If we don't talk about it, it's like there's no problem at all!
The people advocating for turning this site into yet another "I just wanna talk about video games" haven for burying heads in the sand are really disappointing.
The people advocating for turning this site into yet another "I just wanna talk about video games" haven for burying heads in the sand are really disappointing.
Another example why these sorts of news should be banned in a forum where people know fuck nothing about devs lives.
This is not a "random accusation," this is a woman with a name and face who credibly came forward with allegations of abusive behavior towards an individual and was almost immediately backed up by several corroborating accounts from others.
This is exactly how the process works when we cannot count on law enforcement, the judicial system, or wider society to fix the problem of sexual abuse and assault. If you don't like it, fix the system.
Alec Howolka, and Alec Howolka alone, is responsible for Alec Howolka's death. No one else. End of discussion.
Yeah its a real hijacking of the situation. I think some people are just misguided about things such as...nuance.
And stick our heads in the sand and pretend this industry isn't rampant with abusers? Fuck that. So tired of this narrative trying to shut down victims.The true tragedy is a man who never faced justice for his actions, and the lingering pain of his victims who will never have closure.
Lol people are actually trying to use this an opportunity to ban discussion about serious topics. If people cant handle it than the mods will clean up the mess but banning discussion on subjects because people cant handle them is the worst thing to do.
You people are the same ones who want to "keep politics out of the video games" and it's not fooling anyone.
I hope those who have been abused in this industry continue to speak up and try and fix the abuse that happens regardless of the tragic circumstances of this incident
You people are the same ones who want to "keep politics out of the video games" and it's not fooling anyone.
I hope those who have been abused in this industry continue to speak up and try and fix the abuse that happens regardless of the tragic circumstances of this incident
I'm unaware of what other solutions there could be, but I believe making social media and the internet the judge is absolutely the wrong way to go about it - as is the victim staying silent and suffering (and the fact I have to NOTE that is ridiculous, as people continuously look for ways to paint you in a bad light). No one in this situation is a winner, no one is coming out better. Everyone has lost.
I believe the victims. But this whole situation took a dark turn. Perhaps threads like this one should be discussed somewhere else. That's all I'm saying.
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