2 new planes crashed months apart, that's no normal. You are playing fire with people's lives.
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Airlines beginning to ground Boeing 737-Max following Ethiopian Airline crash [UP: Trump orders grounding of fleet in the US]
- Thread starter OtherWorldly
- Start date
2 new planes crashed months apart, that's no normal. You are playing fire with people's lives.
Because the 737-8 has a failure rate that far exceeds aircraft engineering failure rate standards and has extremely critical quality control issues. Boeing needs to get their shit in order (they hire from my school and I'm basically top of my school so that's reason enough).
Ask yourself, would you trust your life to someone less competent than low-G on ResetERA? I sure as hell wouldn't (but sadly do in this world).
Talk about sensationalizing. Someone else ran an article off that same database and only used the 2 nose down complaints.
The other three complaints are 1 Captain going off on MCAS not being in the manual (yes everyone knows this), one where there was a weird leveling issue and one where the Captain said it was more likely a pilot error.
Media lovin' this story though.
But we have a decent idea about the first crash and have no idea about the second. No data suggests the planes present a danger.
The first crash, again, is not a problem with hardware or software or quality control. This crash isn't known yet.
To be honest, these articles are irresponsible because they just feed the panic.
Two brand new planes of the exact same model crashing in a 5 month period is virtually unheard of.
But that isn't the end of the story. We have a decent understanding of what caused the first accident, and it doesn't impact the safety of the plane's themselves, and the latest incident has yet to yield any details that suggest the plane is dangerous.
It doesn't? Maybe I'm missing something.
From the BBC (this may be out of date so I apologize if my facts are old):
The air flight maintenance log showed six problems had been identified on the plane since 26 October, including errors with its airspeed and altitude information displays.
The plane's angle-of-attack sensor - that measures the angle between the wings and the flow of air - encountered problems and was replaced the day before the crash.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46373125
Those were the faulty sensors feeding bad data into the flight computer. They were identified as maintenance issues and I believe the technical director at Lion Air along with other staff were fired in response.
Yet one of those planes basically shoulda been either out of service due to known faulty AoA sensors or would not have crashed had the checklist been followed (as the flight crew previous to the one that crashed did) - which would've defeated MCAS.
The second cause is yet unknown.
That's where we are at. Lion Air would love to pin the first crash on Boeing, and rumoredly is going all airbus to try and continue that perception in Indonesia, but the final report seems likely to pin it on maintainence (surprise surprise with Lion) and maybe partially pilot error.
Things break on airplanes all the time. All. The. Time. That's why they check and maintain them. That's why they have procedures and checklists for what you do if it breaks mid air and redundancies.
Those procedures are how the previous flights dealt with the issues.
What you don't do is keep flying something that is known to be broken.
Well whatever it is, it was enough for the EU to ground them.
737-800 is part of the 737 Next Gen class of planes, which was superseded by the 737 MAX.
I don't think any of these groundings are based on regulators or airlines "knowing" this plane is unsafe. Their statements essentially say so. Call it PR or being prudent, but nobody knows anything at this point as it relates to the Ethiopian Airlines crash.
But the 737 MAX is the problem one getting banned from flight..
I have a flight at the end of the month with a 737-800.. It seems fine, but im trying to calm down my partner over this. Ok, and myself.
You should be fine. The 737-800 is the previous generation that the MAX was intended to replace.
Statistics are not gravity, they are result of several factors. Change a factor and statistics change.
I'm not saying commercial flying should be feared or is even 0,01 % unsafe. But don't treat the safety like some natural law, because it has to be achieved. And the question is now in the room if Boeing achieved that goal with 737.
To be fair: Just like the US has a huge incentive for boeing planes not to be grounded, the EU has an incentive to give an edge to airbus in this story - without looking like they do. People should not act like their governments are completely fair to companies regardless of where they originate.
I'm sure the US regualtors at the FAA know better than the entire world and all the experts in all the regulatory bodies in those countries.
Of course there was justificafion to ground the plane. There was no political or PR motive behind it - virtually the entire world except the US agrees. It is unheard of for a brand new plane to nose dive twice into the ground within months of each other. The correct course of action, due to this extremely rare occurance, is to ground the fleet and investigate. Not the other way around, or you are potentially endangering peoples' lives knowing what has happened.
How many of these planes nosediving into the ground would it take for the FAA to ground them? 300 dead? 500 dead? I wonder where's the line. This is not normal.
We have a good understanding about why the first crash happened. It's not because there's anything wrong with the plane.
Where are you getting this from? The final crash investigation report isn't out yet, but the summary of the investigation on Wikipedia doesn't support what you're saying at all.
The summary of the Lion Air accident is there was runaway stabilizer trim due to faulty sensor data that the pilots didn't handle properly.
I saw this posted on reddit, so take it with a grain of salt... But good summary if true
CBC News: Sunwing suspends Boeing 737 Max 8 flights for 'evolving commercial reasons'
Sunwing Airlines says it is "temporarily" suspending flights of its four Boeing 737 Max 8 planes.
A Max 8 was the plane involved in a deadly crash in Ethiopia last weekend that cost the lives of 157 people.
Sunwing, which specializes in travel between Canada and destinations in Central and South America, said the decision to suspend the use of the Max 8 was not related to safety and was instead about "evolving commercial reasons" such as airspace restrictions imposed by some destinations.
"The FAA has issued a statement of continued air-worthiness of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and we have confidence in the investigative process as well as the handling of this matter by Transport Canada and the other Canadian operators of the MAX 8," Sunwing said in a statement released Tuesday night.
"We appreciate the patience of our retail partners and customers while we work to communicate these updates. We will endeavor to minimize the impact of these schedule changes."
You got to love the theory that it's nothing wrong with the fact that 2 practically new planes from the same model crashed in a similar way months from each other when this kind of occurrence hasn't happened since what? The 90's?
I guess everything is OK for some as long as the victims are not American. Must protect Boeing from being hurt.
I guess everything is OK for some as long as the victims are not American. Must protect Boeing from being hurt.
This is also why I'm a bit leery of the new composite material planes. In theory they should be safer but we've had decades of experience with aluminum. Who knows what kind of unforseen structural engineering challenges these new materials have to go through along with the new design flaws that our limited computer modeling can predict.
I won't even be surprised. And the shitty thing about all these, if true, is that the possibility of these fatalities and accidents were probably already factored in and Boeing executives probably decided that the risk was worth it to okay these cost cutting measures.
Have to say I fail to understand the logic behind the ban being applied to planes already in the air and not allowing them land in their destination. So you have planes you think are not safe and you just let them circle over Europe trying to find a place to land? Doesn't make any sense.
A lot, lot more people die in car accidents every year. The reason plane crashes make big news is because they're rare.
You're much more likely to die in a car accident because some teenager is texting whilst driving or someone is driving drunk.
Car crashes are usually instant with no forewarning. A plane crash is several minutes of falling helplessly while you have 180 people screaming and you know you are fucked. That is what makes flying for me a lot worse. Doesn't help at all that people keep throwing statistics around.
I don't even know where to start. This is factually wrong on every level.
The FAA doesn't know better - the truth is nobody knows anything yet about the reason for the crash..
Dude - how can you not pick up the sarcasm when you read everything following that sentence?
Even if it's a training flaw theres enough evidence to suggest that flaw carries enough additional risk that regulatory agencies should take steps to mitigate it
..... This failure , as far as we know, has nothing to do with composite materials.
We have decades of positive experience in building with composites and we are able to predict accurately its behavior with computer programs and by empirical formula's. Each (new) composite material is also subjected to rigorous testing. There is no reason to go back to 100% aluminium, also because aluminium has its own problems.
Out of curiosity, did the redundancy fail or is the 'don't crash the plane sensor' reliant on human error not being a thing?
Commedieu - the 737-800 is fine. One of the most reliable aircraft ever produced. No need of any concern at all.
There isn't really electronic redundancy with runaway trim, but the system relies on the pilot recognizing the situation if a sensor or other component malfunctions and causes it. When the stabilizer trim is going without being controlled by the pilot while the autopilot is off, it's very obvious. It gets harder and harder to move the airplane the way the pilot wants to and they train for exactly what to do when this happens. And it doesn't happen all at once - it trims for 10 seconds at half speed after 5 second pauses. There's a trim switch on the yoke that can easily override this since it operates at full speed, and in fact on the Lion Air crash they did this like 26 times over the course of the flight. Once the pilots recognize they're fighting the electronic trim the checklist has them simply turn off autopilot (which was already off) and auto throttle, then if that doesn't work hit the cutout switches for the stabilizer trim.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/world/africa/boeing-ethiopian-airlines-plane-crash.html
"Ethiopian Airlines Crash Updates: Pilot Reported 'Flight Control Problems' Minutes Before Crash"
"Ethiopian Airlines Crash Updates: Pilot Reported 'Flight Control Problems' Minutes Before Crash"
Have a flight at the end of the month and had to check. It's a 737-800, not gonna lie I let out a sigh of relief.