Agreed, the 'cinematic' views they went for were annoying. I just want a standard view of the action from the perspective you'll have when actually playing it. IMO RTS always looks better from that view anyway.
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Age of Empires 4 coming Fall 2021
- Thread starter Theorry
- Start date
Ooof, I don't know about this one. It looks very rough. Art style is unappealing, textures are very low res, models are low poly. All that combined makes the game look very... barren and dated.
AoE2 for comparison:
AoE2 for comparison:
Terrain looks really good and I really appreciate how pronounced the units are in general, down to the color saturation and size. Lots of interesting stuff on display as well, like cav archers firing while moving and units fortifying walls and town centers.
I was really afraid the base building roots were being abandoned at first, but it seems like the developers are respecting the franchise's core gameplay. Really excited to see more.
I was really afraid the base building roots were being abandoned at first, but it seems like the developers are respecting the franchise's core gameplay. Really excited to see more.
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Aren't those promo shots released before DE came out? Pretty sure the final game is missing a load of those effects because they made the game hard to readOoof, I don't know about this one. It looks very rough. Art style is unappealing, textures are very low res, models are low poly. All that combined makes the game look very... barren and dated.
AoE2 for comparison:
I don't mind the art style, but the colour palette is a dull compared to AOE2. Guess I can always SweetFX things to make it pop a bit more.
I think they actually toned down the saturation and said theyll have a saturation slider because people complained of how colorful the x019 trailer was haha
Oh, this is a really cool approach. I had thought that China looked a little rote compared to the Mongols, but this... this I like.
Going to build a PC for Age of Empires 1-4 and Diablo 2. Just waiting for the parts to be available one day
Torn on the arrows. I think they look a little too comical, but I like how readable they are. Relic has really put gameplay above realism, which I can appreciate.
Considering xcloud servers run on xbox hardware there is zero chance of this happening.
Gameplay looks really good. Super hyped to play this. But graphics wise this looks absolutely terrible. The RTS genre has so many great looking games now, this looks like a 15 year old game with dreadful animations, horrible textures and super bad models. A bit embarassing for such a high profile series to keep looking worse since the second game.
Nevertheless: WOLOLO!
Nevertheless: WOLOLO!
I'm just as surprised. I just don't get the complaints at all. I can only assume people who are calling this game "cartoony" think there are two artstyles - "Cartoony" and "Realistic".
This is one of the better looking RTSs I've seen - It's so readable yet still visually appealing (a really hard balance to strike), really great design direction work there by Relic.
Im also disappointed.
The first thing I immediately noticed is the huge arrows, then the cartoony looks of all of the units, poor combat animations and poor units details. I wanted to be blown away but now really underwhelmed. After 15 years I expected more out of this.
Why did they zoomed in so close to the units while in combat? It really makes the lack of details stand out and nobody plays like that.
The first thing I immediately noticed is the huge arrows, then the cartoony looks of all of the units, poor combat animations and poor units details. I wanted to be blown away but now really underwhelmed. After 15 years I expected more out of this.
Why did they zoomed in so close to the units while in combat? It really makes the lack of details stand out and nobody plays like that.
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I'm pretty stoked to be honest - I don't mind the visuals at all, it looks like an honest try to bring AoE2 to 3D which they pretty much nailed in my book. Having to craft assets for this game has to be a nightmare! So many civilizations, units and buildings over different time periods can't be an easy thing to pull off.
The battles look a lot more readable than the ones in AoE2 already but who knows how much of that is this specific presentation. I wonder if they managed to streamline the unit handling from a ux perspective in battles because that was always a nightmare in my book. Yes, people managed but there was a lot of potential to improve what was there without going full WC3.
Do we know anything about the modes? I wonder if there's something like a true coop campaign. Would be really fun to play something besides CPU matches with friends that's more like a real campaign.
The battles look a lot more readable than the ones in AoE2 already but who knows how much of that is this specific presentation. I wonder if they managed to streamline the unit handling from a ux perspective in battles because that was always a nightmare in my book. Yes, people managed but there was a lot of potential to improve what was there without going full WC3.
Do we know anything about the modes? I wonder if there's something like a true coop campaign. Would be really fun to play something besides CPU matches with friends that's more like a real campaign.
I hope this is the game I can play on console via xcloud , rts and pc only type games are what I need with no decent pc to my name
They definitely can. Don't be so dismissive. You need to plan for it though for it to be good.
C&C on ps1 works well and that's with a damn d-pad and no analogue support.
I think Halo Wars is pretty strong evidence that it can 100% work. Obviously no-one on a pad is ever going to be able to replicate what someone heavily utilising a keyboard can do, but back in the day you can bet most AoE players weren't obsessing over APM and hotkeys, they were worrying about making macro decisions and pretty much solely using the mouse. The idea that it can't be done on a pad is pretty crazy. Honestly I think the main reason that they haven't announced it, and maybe never will, is because of gatekeeping. A lot of PC players would react very poorly to the notion the game can be played elsewhere.
"clean and readable" isn't exactly what I'm looking for in RTS games
I want to gawk at the units in battle, readability comes second. And I mean it has worked beautifully in countless other RTS games without them resorting to oversized swords and arrows
They "can" be. Just like you "can" play a driving game on a keyboard.
OP
OP
Halo Wars was designed entirely around a controller, it's a fun game but it's extremely simplified compared to PC RTS and hamstrung by that constraint. They could go two directions with this, something like Halo Wars which drastically alters game design and mechanics to facilitate controllers, which will piss off the PC crowd and make them wonder why they even greenlit this project in the first place. Or do a straight port ala Starcraft N64 and C&C PS1, except those ports played like dogshit on controllers and by modern standards they would never leave the QC office.
The only option is to release a AoE4 Console Edition, a separate SKU which has reduced/altered mechanics to facilitate controllers.
I think you're both exaggerating the complexity of AoE and underestimating some of the complexities of Halo Wars. Halo Wars simplifies heavily around base building, but it is at least as complicated, arguably more, around its combat mechanics. It features active abilities and the games revolve around micro more than the Age games do. I'm simply not sure exactly what fundamental aspect of AoE, AoK or AoM people think couldn't be done with a control scheme similar to that in Halo Wars. I played those games obsessively through my childhood, and I just don't see it.
Halo Wars never was popular in the RTS community for a reason. There are games who can't be done on controllers, just like at Steam there are games with huge "controller only" warnings.
Then answer the question I posed. What fundamental feature of AoE, AoK, or AoM could not be done on a controller in a satisfactory way?
Doing every action in a quick way? Imagine PvP with a mouse player vs. controller, or hard SP difficulties.
It's diferent in games like Civ because it's turn-based, so you can take your time.
Well you said it yourself. Ensemble marginalized aspects that were fundamentally frustrating with a controller, such as base building and the macromanagement surrounding that, and emphasized things that controllers could work with such as sending units into combat. Base building is far more vital to the AoE series than Halo Wars, that's the kind of game design change I'm talking about.
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That isn't fundamental, that's no different to arguing that becuase M/KB is ideal for playing FPS games there can't be games that are on both PC and console.
I'd also point out that lots of RTS players don't play in an optimal way, and perhaps more over, one of the reasons Age of Empires is well remembered is because it doesn't focus as heavily on micro as other RTS games, which obviously reduces the importance of 'doing every action in a quick way'. There are tons of Age of Empires players that barely used hotkeys, if at all, as an example. They still love the games.
I think you're conflating thing that were simplified to sell the game to an audience of FPS fans, with things that were simplified because they wouldn't work on a controller. As I mentioned, while Halo Wars is simplified compared to Age of Empires in some respects, in others it is at least as complex. Combat was quite micro-focused, units have active abilities that have to be triggered, there are powers similar to the God Powers in AoM.
As for free base building, it really wouldn't be hard to do that with Halo Wars style controls. The game already has menus to choose a building to build, the game already has menus to use the building to start researches or build unit. So the only missing thing is the ability to place the building in the first place. You can't really be suggesting that moving a cursor to place a building is beyond the pale on a pad?
It might be beyond the pale I'd say? It's not impossible, but translating a PC RTS game 1:1 to a gamepad isn't ideal and will be frustrating to play for people just picking it up on Xbox, I do think that. I guess it depends how far Microsoft wants to push the limits of the marketability of this game on consoles, but what's acceptable for a console RTS port in the 90s isn't what's acceptable now. Considering it hasn't been announced for Xbox consoles at all makes me think they'll rework it with a new console-designed SKU rather than release a straight port, which I think is the right move.
Whilst I haven( played Halo Wars yet, I've played over 1500 hours of single-player AoEII between HD and DE editions.
The main reasons why mouse is important:
1) AoE2 is a macro-heavy game. This means you are both managing resource collection and base building/advancing AND combat, usually in different parts of the map.
2) Age games are based on counters and hidden bonuses- a pikeman does +32 bonus damage to cavalry units, for example, but also takes bonus damage from certain ranged units. So the micro really comes from selecting the correct unit type out of the scrum (with double-click) and making it sure it attacks the units it's strong against, instead of something that has extra resistance against it. AoE is literally all about taking smart exchanges. And this requires precise, immediate controls. Unlike many RTS games, such as C&C and StarCraft, there are no "ultimate units"- you can't just build 20 Mammoth tanks or BattleCruisers and attack ground in enemy base and watch them wreck everything- only a few civs have such "deathball" combos, and even then, they require several units- usually siege with infantry, and some cavalry to watch the flanks- and these units STILL need to be microed to disengage from dis-advantageous fights.
These aspects of AoE would be difficult to replicate on a controller, imo. If the game revolves around map control and making simultaneous decisions in several parts of the map, then controllers just can't keep up, because using the mouse to click on the mini-map is the ultimate convenience, even if you are not using hotkeys.
The main reasons why mouse is important:
1) AoE2 is a macro-heavy game. This means you are both managing resource collection and base building/advancing AND combat, usually in different parts of the map.
2) Age games are based on counters and hidden bonuses- a pikeman does +32 bonus damage to cavalry units, for example, but also takes bonus damage from certain ranged units. So the micro really comes from selecting the correct unit type out of the scrum (with double-click) and making it sure it attacks the units it's strong against, instead of something that has extra resistance against it. AoE is literally all about taking smart exchanges. And this requires precise, immediate controls. Unlike many RTS games, such as C&C and StarCraft, there are no "ultimate units"- you can't just build 20 Mammoth tanks or BattleCruisers and attack ground in enemy base and watch them wreck everything- only a few civs have such "deathball" combos, and even then, they require several units- usually siege with infantry, and some cavalry to watch the flanks- and these units STILL need to be microed to disengage from dis-advantageous fights.
These aspects of AoE would be difficult to replicate on a controller, imo. If the game revolves around map control and making simultaneous decisions in several parts of the map, then controllers just can't keep up, because using the mouse to click on the mini-map is the ultimate convenience, even if you are not using hotkeys.
I've mapped and competently played Grey Goo with a controller. You are right. It's gate keeping because some people have some weird hangup in regards to stepping out of their comfort zone. I'm not saying that keyboard and mouse can't be better here, but they are that on a fps too and that doesn't mean that we can't play shooters with a controller well either.
I haven't played halo wars either, but I grew up with c&c and red alert on the playstation 1. I didn't have a pc till i got older, and then I played age of empires and a ton of other rts too. Anyways, in regards to the ps1 command & conquer games, Those games are mapped very closely to their pc counterparts and what they did there was slow the game down a little and zoomed in. Then they had some clever shortcuts for grouping units mapped directly to the controller. It worked very well for it's time and that's 20 years ago. We have had a revolution in design since. There's no reason why it couldn't work as a port, and there is no reason it couldn't work well if time and effort was put into it. I do think that there is a worry from strategy gamers on pc that doing this would dumb the games down, but that's not necessary at all, and infact I think it's a shame because with the large gamebase on consoles you could possibly revitalize the genre which these days is a lot more niche than it should be.
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I think a lot of it comes from a very hardcore perspective which is probably part of the reason the genre is in such a tricky position. My father is 60 and still regularly played AoE III 'til very recently, and he's awaiting IV. I doubt he knows a single hotkey and I doubt his APM exceeds ten very often, but he loves enjoys the strategic, macro side of the game. When I used to play these games, and AoE was one of the first games I really got into as a six year old, I loved them for years before I had any conception of playing competitively.
What we should all be hoping for as fans of the franchise this rekindling ignites into a full revival, and you can only go so far by appealing to the hardcore. Opening up to Xbox gamers is a good way of doing more than that, particularly with Game Pass. They can do it via m/kb support, I'd see that as a bare minimum honestly, but I also think it's not beyond the wit of man to find a good way to map whatever features they've got onto a controller. HW shows a path forward, AoEIV can go beyond.
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I'm guessing it just reflects the budget and team size with this one. They've managed to rekindle the franchise but it doesn't really seem like a AAA game is on the cards just yet. It's not going to affect my enjoyment of the game but I think there's potential to make an absolutely jaw dropping game from this perspective - after all it's not one we see get high budget treatment often - and this ain't that.
The visuals of the ships/water from the tweet posted above are particularly uninspiring.
