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After Corbyn loss, Democrats had better be prepared for the same antisemite (or whatever sticks) smear to happen in the US, even against Bernie

bawjaws

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,573
BADMAN said:
But the potential anti-semitism from the left was USED in a bad faith sort of way. It's highly likely that the torries won because they created a narrative of blatant anti-semitism from Corbyn and Labour as a whole. Was that justified?
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IMCaprica said:
As an American I try to stay in my own lane, but from how the election was explained to me by people in the UK it seems misleading to suggest Corbyn being called antisemitic was what made a dent. Labour waffling on Brexit because they needed voters on both sides to even have a chance seems a lot more relevant. Party dynamics are totally different too.
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LinkStrikesBack said:
"Corbyn is an anti-Semitic leader" was the main thing they used to attack his character and destroy his popularity in the general populace for months and maybe even years, I can't even remember when that garbage started.

It absolutely was one of the biggest reasons he lost the election so badly.
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I think it's quite convenient to blame Labour's defeat on an attack campaign of anti-semitism against Corbyn, but I don't think it's entirely accurate. I think it probably played a much smaller part than other attacks (in bed with Iran, not patriotic, ad nauseam), and a tiny part compared to Labour's stance on Brexit (which was to sit on the fence in an attempt not to alienate their core voters in pro-Leave areas, despite Corbyn not being a big fan of the EU and almost certainly being pro-Leave himself). And that's before we even get to actual policy - Labour's manifesto was a bit of a mess and whilst it undoubtedly appeals to a significant proportion of the electorate, it didn't have enough support to get them into power and their refusal to compromise in order to get elected has cost them yet again. Centrism is a dirty word in Labour circles but if the alternative is not getting elected for a generation then perhaps more good can be done by moving further to the middle and actually getting elected? Especially with the Tories pivoting further to the right.

And let's not forget although Corbyn was being smeared as being anti-Semitic, Boris Johnson was fucking around calling people picaninnies or referring to burqa-wearing women as "letterboxes". If you're trying to say that anti-semitism plays far more effectively than flat out racism then I'm not sure I agree.

And to get back to the OP's point, I can't see the parallels between attacking Corbyn on anti-semitism and doing the same to Bernie Sanders. Completely and utterly different scenarios.
 
LinkStrikesBack

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,348
bawjaws said:
And let's not forget although Corbyn was being smeared as being anti-Semitic, Boris Johnson was fucking around calling people picaninnies or referring to burqa-wearing women as "letterboxes". If you're trying to say that anti-semitism plays far more effectively than
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The media never pushed Boris Johnson on his rampant racism. Media bias has never been more obvious to me than this past election with how Jeremy Corbyn was approached Vs how Boris was, when they could even get him to turn up.
 
Don Fluffles

Don Fluffles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,055
Then we fight back harder.

Call the liars out. Hold them accountable. Do even more to deplatform them. Remind citizens that what they're doing is not normal and things will only get worse - not orderly - if they go to that side.
 
Joni

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
♡♪!? said:
One annoyance I have is when people say Labour is anti-Semitic (people being concerned about that I understand and hesitant to vote) but then vote Boris Johnson who is notoriously racist. Baffles me. The news was also about how Corbyn should apologise again, and Johnson just brushes off racism with a dumbstruck face, and if we're lucky enough for an interviewer to mention it.
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Racist against the right people. People don't care if you are racist against brown people.
 
Bremsstrahlung

Bremsstrahlung

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,363
Racism is ok to some people as long as it's not against Jews apparently.
But also those people are actually still antisemitic as well, so really nobody wins.
 
The Unsent

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,419
Joni said:
Racist against the right people. People don't care if you are racist against brown people.
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I am disappointed with the BBC though, you basically are pressured to pay their license and Johnson's history of racism is under-reported compared to the anti Semitism that was in Labour. I'm not trying to deflect and do whatabouism or 'both sides' but it's not really fair and unbiased reporting when Corbyn got it so much worse during pre election, and Boris' racism is almost portrayed like just a character quirk you can put up with, like he's just just your goofy 'un-pc' uncle. Considering that Corbyn was a consistent protester against racism, something feels really off about the attention he got in comparison.
 
1.21Gigawatts

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
Its the neoliberal establishment trying to protect its status quo.
They are fine with far-right racists, but leftists who want to change the economic system are a real threat to them.
 
AzorAhai

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,598
People will get the shithead they deserve. We should keep voting but stop caring too much, for our mental health.
 
Mizeris Lutz Ether Lanai

Mizeris Lutz Ether Lanai

Member
Dec 2, 2017
3,435
Davilmar said:
DING DING DING. The majority of the "anti-Semitic" criticisms are overstated and bullshit, and almost always coincidentally hits the Left. I'm not from th UK, but I wish Corbyn would have aggressively called out that BS and called out the Rabbi who was criticizing him on his for his supposed connection to Johnson.
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But that's exactly what these types of moves are designed to do. Distract the opponent from spending time on their core messaging. Generate chyrons & headlines that say "X responds to antisemitism accusations " or "X says they 'vehemently deny' antisemitism charges" because they know that's all a lot of people will see.

They know their own supporters are mostly just smirking at the whole thing, it's about demotivating the opposition. Donations, volunteers, etc.
 
Blader

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,605
Doesn't saying something like "most of the claims of anti-semitism against Corbyn/Labour were exaggerations or total lies" imply that...some of them were not? I don't think it's impossible to reconcile that many anti-Semitic charges were used against Labour in bad faith, particularly in contrast to Boris' personal history of racism and the inherently xenophobic agenda of Brexit, but at the same time recognize there is an actual issue of nascent anti-semitism within Labour that Corbyn was slow to do anything about.

ChristopherDX said:
Isn't Bernie ...Jewish?
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He'll be hit with right-wing "not a good Jew" smears. And already has to some extent.
 
plagiarize

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Thing is, they'd have needed to have started years ago.

Here's a New Yorker article from August of last year on the *already very lengthy* topic of anti-semitism in the modern Labour party.


I understand how upsetting Boris winning is and was. I feel it deeply. But there are no tangible signs that it means anything about how next year in the US is going to go. I bet that whatever the results of the primaries and the presidential election next year, that Boris winning this week won't remotely factor in.

He was ahead in polls all through the campaign. Corbyn wasn't ever in a position where it looked like he could win. There are similarities between, say Trump and Boris and Corbyn and Bernie, but they aren't the same by a long stretch. The reaction I've witnessed to the suggestion that Corbyn might become PM in the UK has been far more extreme than I've seen people react to the idea of Bernie winning.

That's just personal observation and it could totally be faulty, but even listening to the rhetoric in parliament, Corbyn was demonized for years. Bernie hasn't been.

Corbyn had more in common with Hillary, where, rightly or wrongly, the criticisms had been going on for years, and had seeped throughout the public consciousness.
 

Cromat

Member
Mar 17, 2019
677
To those who believe that it was just smear: really? There have been hundreds of incidents at this point. Step back from the brink for a second and reconsider. To the extent that Corbyn's problems with Jews contributed to his loss (I doubt it was his main weakness), it was absolutely deserved.
 
Jag

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,669
Davilmar said:
DING DING DING. The majority of the "anti-Semitic" criticisms are overstated and bullshit, and almost always coincidentally hits the Left.
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First you are wrong and fuck you for minimizing the hatred leveled against Jews. Right AND Left Antisemitism is at the highest levels in recent memory. I would never say what you said about ANY discriminated group. Frankly it's disgusting.

Do you think the majority of criticisms against other minority groups are also overstated and bullshit or is it only the ones about Jews?
 
Davilmar

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,264
Jag said:
First you are wrong and fuck you for minimizing the hatred leveled against Jews. Right AND Left Antisemitism is at the highest levels in recent memory. I would never say what you said about ANY discriminated group. Frankly it's disgusting.

Do you think the majority of criticisms against other minority groups are also overstated and bullshit or is it only the ones about Jews?
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What is this nonsense? Nobody is denying that there is anti-Semitism, and surely nobody is even suggesting that Labour doesn't have an issue with it. What I'm criticizing was the issue of people making those claims in the middle of the election with fucking Boris Johnson. If you were enough of a sap to really believe that Corbyn hated Jewish people when Johnson has been a proven racist, homophobe and sexist, go fuck yourself. This is particularly cute given the fact that I am Black and of an immigrant family. Kindly miss me with this shit.
 
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krazen

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,120
Gentrified Brooklyn
Jag said:
First you are wrong and fuck you for minimizing the hatred leveled against Jews. Right AND Left Antisemitism is at the highest levels in recent memory. I would never say what you said about ANY discriminated group. Frankly it's disgusting.

Do you think the majority of criticisms against other minority groups are also overstated and bullshit or is it only the ones about Jews?
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I think you went a bit reactionary. The idea that the original replier was making is that since right wing politicians generally have made their racist bed and lie in it, the only 'Gotcha bitch' is the fact that antisemitism is a problem on the right and the left (so's run of the mill racism tbh, but the left does a much better job of cloaking it in neoliberalism). So any wiff of it on the left is a big deal (as it should be) because it's exploitable since the left should be above that bullshit but at the same time and any on the right is kinda just lumped into their 'Well, we are already racist soo...'.

Look at the US with Trump literally making a 'U american jews love ze money' speech a week ago full of anti-semetic tropes


but passes a bill marketed as fighting anti-semitism but is that's squarely aimed at leftist critiques of Israel.


He gets to have his cake and eat it to. Continually make anti-semetic signifiers that have caused a direct rise in hate crimes, but also come off as the savior. And honestly the 'U HATE US?!?!?' anger in your reply is exactly why its such an effective tool, LOL.
 
Jag

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,669
Davilmar said:
What is this nonsense? Nobody is denying that there is anti-Semitism, and surely nobody is even suggesting that Labour doesn't have an issue with it. What I'm criticizing was the issue of people making those claims in the middle of the election with fucking Boris Johnson. If you were enough of a sap to really believe that Corbyn hated Jewish people when Johnson has been a proven racist, homophobe and sexist, go fuck yourself. This is particularly cute given the fact that I am Black and of an immigrant family. Kindly miss me with this shit.
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Except that's not what you said. You said:

The majority of the "anti-Semitic" criticisms are overstated and bullshit
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That is what I called out. Minimizing a threat to a minority group. You can retract it if you mispoke.
 
Davilmar

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,264
Jag said:
Except that's not what you said. You said:



That is what I called out. Minimizing a threat to a minority group. You can retract it if you mispoke.
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Retract exactly what? The only thing I wish to do is clarify that I'm referring to criticism from conservatives and the right-wing media on Corbyn. It's concern trolling at it's worst, and it's bullshit. They made Corbyn and Labour overall sound like they all hated Jewish people, and it was bullshit. I stand behind that comment.
 
Jag

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,669
Davilmar said:
Retract exactly what? The only thing I wish to do is clarify that I'm referring to criticism from conservatives and the right-wing media on Corbyn. It's concern trolling at it's worst, and it's bullshit. They made Corbyn and Labour overall sound like they all hated Jewish people, and it was bullshit. I stand behind that comment.
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I accept the clarification. However, most of the allegations came from die hard lifelong Labour supporters. What you are doing is classic Whataboutism.

There is no question that the right wing (incl. Trump and Johnson) is much more of a threat to the Jewish community than anyone else. They are murdering us all over the world. But that doesn't mean we are going to ignore hatred from other areas because of it.
 
Double 0

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,430
Bernie keeps people around he really shouldn't out of loyalty. But that is a far cry from how crappy Corbyn handled things.

He'll be fine.
 
Davilmar

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,264
Jag said:
I accept the clarification. However, most of the allegations came from die hard lifelong Labour supporters. What you are doing is classic Whataboutism.

There is no question that the right wing (incl. Trump and Johnson) is much more of a threat to the Jewish community than anyone else. They are murdering us all over the world. But that doesn't mean we are going to ignore hatred from other areas because of it.
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Explain to me how pointing out how a political party is explicitly using "anti-Semitism" as a weapon is "whataboutism." That is calling people out on their bullshit to me. As I have stated before, nobody is denying that Labour has a problem with anti-Semitic rhetoric, and Corbyn had a long history of controversy of it. I am in no way reducing or mitigating the people on the Left calling out the ugliness of prejudice. I actually take their concerns seriously, and it should be addressed. It's the Tories I don't give a damn about. The conversation was hijacked by anti-Semitism, as if Tories or the media actually gave a damn about the issue. I'm not falling for that.
 
Dream Machine

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
User warned: Driveby post / Avatar shaming
I can already see the avatars on here that will be buying and pushing the narrative
 
Semfry

Semfry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,952
This. Don't fall for it America. Don't hesitate to call out actual anti-semitism from the left, and support actual balanced investigations into racism on all sides, but if a publication suddenly starts pretending to care about anti-semitism while completely ignoring or minising all instances of racism on the right (anti-semitism included) then make it clear they can fuck off into space.

They've already started, but hopefully Bernie being Jewish will offset this attack line somewhat.
 
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Snowy

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,399
Jag said:
Except that's not what you said. You said:



That is what I called out. Minimizing a threat to a minority group. You can retract it if you mispoke.
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Claims of Corbyn being anti-Semitic were absolute horseshit. There was some bad judgment on his part in how he handled this issue, but you're an absolute rube if you think he himself harbored prejudice against Jews or would have done anything to harm them with his policies.
 
Jag

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,669
Snowy said:
Claims of Corbyn being anti-Semitic were absolute horseshit. There was some bad judgment on his part in how he handled this issue, but you're an absolute rube if you think he himself harbored prejudice against Jews or would have done anything to harm them with his policies.
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Again. Not what I said. I disagreed with a statement made by another poster about how the "majority of antisemitic claims are overstated and bullshit". That's minimizing a well documented threat against a minority group (0.4% of the UK pop). He further clarified what he meant which was fine.

I'm more than happy to discuss the much worse hatred harbored by the right, white supremacists and conservatives against Jews and how they weaponize it.
 
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Ionic

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,734
Dream Machine said:
I can already see the avatars on here that will be buying and pushing the narrative
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Once right wing rags normalize it enough, if any of the candidates suggests Bernie and his campaign harbor anti-semetic views, the thread here about it will have at least a dozen posts on the first page saying "He's right you know".

Of course, once the general election cycle happens I imagine whichever candidate makes it is going to get a dollop of this.
 
OP
OP
MetroidPrimeRib

MetroidPrimeRib

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,964


Thanks Speechboy.

Turns out hes talking about Linda Sarsour, who like Farrakhan is just a name insane cranks drop to feel mad about something and - ding ding ding - ILHAN OMAR

Edit- not saying Sarsour is like Farrakhan, only the people very mad at her are the same that say "what about farrakhan" in response to anything
 
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Tygre

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,100
Chesire, UK
The worst thing about the politically motivated smears of antisemitism is that they will create and encourage greater acts of antisemitism due to its politicised nature. It's already happening in the UK.

With the Right crowing about successfully weaponising issues of antisemitism and thanking Jewish people for helping, it then positions Jewish people to be scapegoated by the Left for helping the Right. It leaves the whole Jewish community in an utterly invidious position.
 
GenTask

GenTask

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,661
You can bet your bottom dollar if you espouse strong convictions against Israeli's colonialist policies you will receive the anti-semite label as well.
 
JABEE

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,850
Let's stop pretending this will go away as an attack on Sanders.

sub-buzz-8440-1469222756-16.png


 
Tamanon

Tamanon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,721
Antisemitism claims are almost never aimed at influencing Jewish people, but just ammo for evangelicals.
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
At this point we need to spread the message that mainstream media is biased against the left. Part of how Republicans got as lockstep as they did was their demonization of media. For survival we're going to have to go just as low, but at least there's justification on the left.
 
SpaceCrystal

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
CrunchyB said:
If this somehow sticks our world is doomed. It's so dumb and blatant and like in the UK, it totally ignores the vast crimes of the person who will benifit most from this smear job.
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The majority of this country hates Trump, & rightly so after putting up with him & his bullshit for now three years.

They'll automatically vote whoever is the Democratic nominee just to get his ass out.
 
devilhawk

devilhawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,536
Republicans and their Russian allies/handlers are absolutely going to pull out all the stops for 2020. There will be many similar tactics as used in the UK. But I don't think it will specifically be the antisemetic argument against the Democratic candidate. It will be similar and far more expansive. I just don't think attacking Biden, Warren, Bernie or Pete will have the public traction that Corbyn did. Washington Examiner desperate hit pieces aren't the same as what happened to Corbyn.
 
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