• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
Whether or not the antisemite smear on Corbyn and Labour had an actual, large and tangible effect on the US election is likely up for debate. What isn't is that it was really annoying, completely in bad faith, and the same ratfuck will absolutely be done here, whatever can be made to stick. With Corbyn it bounced from sexism to racism to back to sexism before settling on antisemitism, which actually did stick with insane right wing reactionaries who can be completely written off to begin with, but also with well-to-do liberals and pundits, especially those in The Guardian or New York Times.

You already saw a test run for this in the United States earlier this year when Ilhan Omar was embroiled in the dumbest and entirely bad faith controversy about saying AIPAC can influence politicians with money. Again, you can write off all right wingers as bullshitting you. But again, you saw well-to-do liberals and journalists buying into it. You cannot fall for it, because its going to happen again and again. You cannot be wishy-washy, saying that while the comment itself is correct, the language used or the "tropes" invoked are problematic, because there is no language that can be used that would ever satisfy the people trying to fuck you over other then just shutting up.

I can guarantee that the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is or if they have had positive or negative comments towards Ilhan Omar's statements, will be slapped with this and anything else that will stick. And if you think they wouldn't fucking dare try and stick this onto Bernie, you're mistaken. The smarter of them will try and say its his CAMPAIGN or his STAFFERS or ILHAN OMAR who endorsed him are the anti-semetic ones and that Bernie by allowing it is no better, which is also bullshit. One day after and we have -





Plus numerous others from earlier, including The Federalist, which we'll ignore because its a neo nazi rag and I'm not even sure why they are pretending like their 20 actual readers think anti semitism is bad.

The issue is that actual anti-semitism IS historically quite powerful. It is undoubtedly a good thing to be on the watch for it, but to cede the entire argument to what we obviously know is an actually, structurally anti-semitic right wing is not an option. People are going to have to be smarter and more defiant then that.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,476
One annoyance I have is when people say Labour is anti-Semitic (people being concerned about that I understand and hesitant to vote) but then vote Boris Johnson who is notoriously racist. Baffles me. The news was also about how Corbyn should apologise again, and Johnson just brushes off racism with a dumbstruck face, and if we're lucky enough for an interviewer to mention it.
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,930
Yep the groundwork has been laid. Let's hope the MSM in the US doesnt take the bait.

Who I'm I kidding.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,379
Can't wait for people to concern troll about antisemitism and then clearly not give a fuck by voting for The Racist Party.

Gonna be a long year for a Jewish leftie like me.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,279
One annoyance I have is when people say Labour is anti-Semitic (people being concerned about that I understand and hesitant to vote) but then vote Boris Johnson who is notoriously racist. Baffles me. The news was also about how Corbyn should apologise again, and Johnson just brushes off racism with a dumbstruck face, and if we're lucky enough for an interviewer to mention it.

DING DING DING. The majority of the "anti-Semitic" criticisms are overstated and bullshit, and almost always coincidentally hits the Left. I'm not from th UK, but I wish Corbyn would have aggressively called out that BS and called out the Rabbi who was criticizing him on his for his supposed connection to Johnson.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,032
All my Jewish friends are liberals, many of whom who are at odds with their own families, so this will get real ugly-real quick across the board if false-flagging antisemitism is allowed to be politicized by conservatives.

Trump sure as fuck is trying to weaponize it.
 

Quantza

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
641
The reduction of Corbyn's issues to "just a smear" is incredibly gross.
I'll wait for you to list those issues.
Dumb humans cant handle the online world we created. It's too easy to manipulate them.
It sounds terrible, but this.

Labour needed to prove that they are a single unified party, with clear and distinct values which only represent themselves.
If the Democrats (or Labour) keep up the in-fighting, one group will assimilate the other, or they will break up. It's the competitive way, after all.
 
Last edited:

Phrozenflame500

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,132
They can try but I doubt it will be as effective. The story stuck in the UK because Corbyn actually was an anti-semite while most Democrats are not.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
And we had an actual completely manufactured RW smear help tank a candidate here recently. Remember Swift-Boating? And now we have the Biden/Ukraine crap. This has been going on in the US for eons. We don't need a "warning" about it.
No it's not. Its identically bullshit to the Omar "controversy."
Then I'm sure you'll be able to provide examples of this grotesque bias on Corbyn's part?
Corbyn's issues? What issues did he have besides the media making him out to be anti-semetic satan?
I mean, seriously? Get out of your echo chamber. Yes, the RW will trump up anything in bad faith to help them win. That doesn't mean that there isn't a problem there. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/29/17168320/labour-corbyn-anti-semitism-mural
The protest was a reaction to recent revelations that Corbyn, in a Facebook comment, had defended a blatantly anti-Semitic mural in London back in 2012 that the local government wanted removed. Here's a photo of the mural, tweeted out by the artist, LA-based painter Mear One:
This "nah nah nah there's no problem" is the exact same head-sand approach taken to the polling numbers.
All my Jewish friends are liberals, many of whom who are at odds with their own families, so this will get real ugly-real quick across the board if false-flagging antisemitism is allowed to be politicized by conservatives.
Trump's anti-semitic as fuck and the Jewish vote is the third-most Dem demographic in the US (behind black and LGBT americans) so it's unlikely to be a flashpoint for a Dem candidate.
 
OP
OP
MetroidPrimeRib
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
If I were to - similarly to Ilhan Omar - weigh a single incident, versus the entire history, policy and public life of said individual, and then decide that the single incident is ACTUALLY the one true part and the entire history is the coverup, then yes I would believe Corbyn is an anti semite. But that is profoundly ridiculous.

I simply believe Corbyns apology because I dont think he is a malicious person. If we were to weigh the evidence of Corbyn being an anti semite versus the evidence of Johnson being an islamophobe, I dont think I'd need to tell you which one would look worse, or which one was covered by the UK media at 100 times the intensity, which is what this thread is about.

They can try but I doubt it will be as effective. The story stuck in the UK because Corbyn actually was an anti-semite while most Democrats are not.

See you're not giving me a lot of faith with that back to back statement
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,682
I'll wait for you to list those issues.

Didn't the JLM (a Jewish org with 100 years of Labour ties) do this and submit the report to the EHRC? With pages of specific examples?


Seventy serving and former Labour officials have given sworn statements as part of a Jewish Labour Movement dossier into the party's handling of antisemitism allegations.

70 sworn statements is not nothing.

The report. 50 pages of incidents. Some minor, some bigger.

And the cover up.
The Labour party has always insisted that Jeremy Corbyn and his team have not interfered in antisemitism complaints.

However a whistleblower says that they were ordered to deliver cases to the leader's office on USB sticks for his staff to "review, draw up reports and make recommendations regarding further action".

The whistleblower says that they were told to lie about what they were doing with the USB sticks and told to only discuss the sticks using their personal email rather than official Labour Party accounts.

Examples from the report:

  • At Labour's 2017 conference, a member said he shared a table with two delegates he did not know who agreed Jews were "subhuman", "didn't deserve to be allowed to define what constitutes antisemitism" and should be "grateful we don't make them eat bacon…"
  • One person listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at local party meetings, including being called "a Tory Jew", "a child killer", "Zio scum", being told "he's good with money", "to shut the f*** up, Jew" and "Hitler was right"
  • South Tottenham's membership secretary objected to member applications from 25 ultra-orthodox Jews and required home visits to their houses - which is not a requirement
  • A party member said: "The only reason we have prostitutes in Seven Sisters is because of the Jews"
  • Margaret Hodge, after writing a Sunday Times article, received Facebook messages from Corbyn-supporting groups calling her a "Zionist b****", "Zionist remedial cancer", "damaging Labour in the interests of Israel" and "under the orders of her paymaster in Israel"
  • A Labour member said at a local meetings other members defended a person who repeated "the over-representation of Jews in the capitalist ruling class that gives the Israel-Zionist lobby its power"
  • A parliamentary candidate described witnessing a member tell a Jewish councillor to "go home and count their money" after they were deselected
  • At a conference fringe event a speaker said they had the right to discuss whether the Holocaust happened - nobody called out the behaviour and a member said US police who killed black teens were probably trained in Israel
  • A 2017 parliamentary candidate said he received a large amount of antisemitic commentary on social media, including: "You and your Zionist cult are NOT welcome. This is London. Not Tel Aviv."
  • One member said he was leafleting for a rule change to prohibit all types of discrimination and was called racist and members said they would not support the change because JLM was "financed and controlled by the Israeli government"
  • One former staffer at the Leader's Office said he was subjected to an "inquisition" about being Jewish, including his views on Israel
  • A sixth form student said he was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum's Facebook group shortly after joining after members searched his account for links to Jewish organisations and accused him of being a Zionist operative.
 

Br3wnor

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,982
If Bernie gets the nomination, he's going to have a whole host of smears by the media to worry about, not just anti-semitism
 

Khoryos

Member
Nov 5, 2019
443
And we had an actual completely manufactured RW smear help tank a candidate here recently. Remember Swift-Boating? And now we have the Biden/Ukraine crap. This has been going on in the US for eons. We don't need a "warning" about it.



I mean, seriously? Get out of your echo chamber. Yes, the RW will trump up anything in bad faith to help them win. That doesn't mean that there isn't a problem there. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/29/17168320/labour-corbyn-anti-semitism-mural

This "nah nah nah there's no problem" is the exact same head-sand approach taken to the polling numbers.

Trump's anti-semitic as fuck and the Jewish vote is the third-most Dem demographic in the US (behind black and LGBT americans) so it's unlikely to be a flashpoint for a Dem candidate.
It's tough to respond to your source, because there's no actual content to it? Just assertions that critique of capitalism is inherently anti-semitic, apparently, and the suggestion that people being kicked out of the party for questionable comments means the party has a problem.

To me, that suggests that the party is actually, you know, dealing with issues when they arise? Kind of the opposite of an institutional problem?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
It's tough to respond to your source, because there's no actual content to it? Just assertions that critique of capitalism is inherently anti-semitic, apparently, and the suggestion that people being kicked out of the party for questionable comments means the party has a problem.

To me, that suggests that the party is actually, you know, dealing with issues when they arise? Kind of the opposite of an institutional problem?
It's tough to have a discussion with people who deliberately don't inform themselves so they can make up narratives about a blatantly anti-semitic mural.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
And we had an actual completely manufactured RW smear help tank a candidate here recently. Remember Swift-Boating? And now we have the Biden/Ukraine crap. This has been going on in the US for eons. We don't need a "warning" about it.



I mean, seriously? Get out of your echo chamber. Yes, the RW will trump up anything in bad faith to help them win. That doesn't mean that there isn't a problem there. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/29/17168320/labour-corbyn-anti-semitism-mural

This "nah nah nah there's no problem" is the exact same head-sand approach taken to the polling numbers.

Trump's anti-semitic as fuck and the Jewish vote is the third-most Dem demographic in the US (behind black and LGBT americans) so it's unlikely to be a flashpoint for a Dem candidate.
Yeah and he apologized for it. Does he have a pattern of Anti-Semitism beyond that, and most importantly, does he have Anti-Semitic policies?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Yeah and he apologized for it. Does he have a pattern of Anti-Semitism beyond that, and most importantly, does he have Anti-Semitic policies?
There have been significant issues with handling issues with it within the party. At best, he's incredibly tone-deaf and bad at party management.
Clearly, I lack your great wisdom - I beg you, inform me of what about it is anti-semitic?

Jewish caricatures, the conspiracy imagery alongside them, the painter's own words. This isn't a "grey" area.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,981
I can't imagine any smear being more effective than the "socialist" scaremongering.
 
OP
OP
MetroidPrimeRib
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
Didn't the JLM (a Jewish org with 100 years of Labour ties) do this and submit the report to the EHRC? With pages of specific examples?




  • At Labour's 2017 conference, a member said he shared a table with two delegates he did not know who agreed Jews were "subhuman", "didn't deserve to be allowed to define what constitutes antisemitism" and should be "grateful we don't make them eat bacon…"
  • One person listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at local party meetings, including being called "a Tory Jew", "a child killer", "Zio scum", being told "he's good with money", "to shut the f*** up, Jew" and "Hitler was right"
  • South Tottenham's membership secretary objected to member applications from 25 ultra-orthodox Jews and required home visits to their houses - which is not a requirement
  • A party member said: "The only reason we have prostitutes in Seven Sisters is because of the Jews"
  • Margaret Hodge, after writing a Sunday Times article, received Facebook messages from Corbyn-supporting groups calling her a "Zionist b****", "Zionist remedial cancer", "damaging Labour in the interests of Israel" and "under the orders of her paymaster in Israel"
  • A Labour member said at a local meetings other members defended a person who repeated "the over-representation of Jews in the capitalist ruling class that gives the Israel-Zionist lobby its power"
  • A parliamentary candidate described witnessing a member tell a Jewish councillor to "go home and count their money" after they were deselected
  • At a conference fringe event a speaker said they had the right to discuss whether the Holocaust happened - nobody called out the behaviour and a member said US police who killed black teens were probably trained in Israel
  • A 2017 parliamentary candidate said he received a large amount of antisemitic commentary on social media, including: "You and your Zionist cult are NOT welcome. This is London. Not Tel Aviv."
  • One member said he was leafleting for a rule change to prohibit all types of discrimination and was called racist and members said they would not support the change because JLM was "financed and controlled by the Israeli government"
  • One former staffer at the Leader's Office said he was subjected to an "inquisition" about being Jewish, including his views on Israel
  • A sixth form student said he was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum's Facebook group shortly after joining after members searched his account for links to Jewish organisations and accused him of being a Zionist operative.

British Jewish Leftists have long had questions about the current JLM and its links to the Israeli Embassy, as its director was literally part of the Israeli Embassy when it was suddenly reformed. After Al-Jazeera did a deep dive about the UK-Israel lobby and ties to pro Netenyahu forces, and that the reports have all been oddly unspecific about dates, which when dug deeper, point to times before Corbyn was even the party leader, just made it even more questionable. Al-Jazeera found FAR more solid (video) proof of said director of the JLM saying insane shit about the Electronic Intifada, a website that has been deeply critical of Israel, the Israeli lobby in the US and UK and of JLM itself.
 

KidAAlbum

Member
Nov 18, 2017
3,181
How can people possibly believe Sanders is Anti Semitic? Are people really that easily fooled? God i hate this world.
It's possible. If they can't find anything on Sanders, they'll move onto people who hold positions in his campaign, or find anyone associated with him to paint him as something bad. We've already seen this on era where Bernie has a "problem" and that is the reason why they won't vote for him because his progressive values and policy positions don't matter as much.

There is a battle within the left of the US. Many progressives have decided to change the Democrats from within, and this is clashing with many established party members who operate in the established manner (big money in politics, forever wars, etc...). Because the democrats have water carriers online, you're going to see these types of battles to paint people as morally wrong.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887

Combo

Banned
Jan 8, 2019
2,437
Didn't the JLM (a Jewish org with 100 years of Labour ties) do this and submit the report to the EHRC? With pages of specific examples?




70 sworn statements is not nothing.

The report. 50 pages of incidents. Some minor, some bigger.

And the cover up.


Examples from the report:

  • At Labour's 2017 conference, a member said he shared a table with two delegates he did not know who agreed Jews were "subhuman", "didn't deserve to be allowed to define what constitutes antisemitism" and should be "grateful we don't make them eat bacon…"
  • One person listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at local party meetings, including being called "a Tory Jew", "a child killer", "Zio scum", being told "he's good with money", "to shut the f*** up, Jew" and "Hitler was right"
  • South Tottenham's membership secretary objected to member applications from 25 ultra-orthodox Jews and required home visits to their houses - which is not a requirement
  • A party member said: "The only reason we have prostitutes in Seven Sisters is because of the Jews"
  • Margaret Hodge, after writing a Sunday Times article, received Facebook messages from Corbyn-supporting groups calling her a "Zionist b****", "Zionist remedial cancer", "damaging Labour in the interests of Israel" and "under the orders of her paymaster in Israel"
  • A Labour member said at a local meetings other members defended a person who repeated "the over-representation of Jews in the capitalist ruling class that gives the Israel-Zionist lobby its power"
  • A parliamentary candidate described witnessing a member tell a Jewish councillor to "go home and count their money" after they were deselected
  • At a conference fringe event a speaker said they had the right to discuss whether the Holocaust happened - nobody called out the behaviour and a member said US police who killed black teens were probably trained in Israel
  • A 2017 parliamentary candidate said he received a large amount of antisemitic commentary on social media, including: "You and your Zionist cult are NOT welcome. This is London. Not Tel Aviv."
  • One member said he was leafleting for a rule change to prohibit all types of discrimination and was called racist and members said they would not support the change because JLM was "financed and controlled by the Israeli government"
  • One former staffer at the Leader's Office said he was subjected to an "inquisition" about being Jewish, including his views on Israel
  • A sixth form student said he was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum's Facebook group shortly after joining after members searched his account for links to Jewish organisations and accused him of being a Zionist operative.
Some of those comments are indeed anti-semitic but some are anti-zionist which is the the opposite of anti-semitic.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
So you're backing down on calling him an Anti-Semite then?
I am saying the talk about potential anti-semititsm from those on the left is not all bad faith and that there area real incidents and concerns underlying it regarding his behavior that have nothing to do with politics regarding the right wing, center-left, or Israel's government.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,903
The Washington Examiner trying to paint Sanders as less than Jewish as a means of calling his campaign anti-semitic is some strong horse shit.
 

Khoryos

Member
Nov 5, 2019
443
User Banned (2 months): dismissing antisemitism over a series of posts
There have been significant issues with handling issues with it within the party. At best, he's incredibly tone-deaf and bad at party management.


Jewish caricatures, the conspiracy imagery alongside them, the painter's own words. This isn't a "grey" area.
You mean the caricature of Baron Lionel Walter Rothschild, actual person with that actual facial hair? Along with the caricatures of gentiles JP Morgan and John D. Rockefeller? And if the suggestion that intercontinental capital looks after its own interests reads to you as inherently anti-semitic, I would suggest you look at your own views on the issue before pointing fingers.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,903
I am saying the talk about potential anti-semititsm from those on the left is not all bad faith and that there area real incidents and concerns underlying it regarding his behavior that have nothing to do with politics regarding the right wing, center-left, or Israel's government.
What about in relation to calling Bernie Sanders an anti-semite? Are those arguments being made in good faith?
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
any democrat candidate will be bombarded with fake news, and trump will create any story to stick, and there's some that could be used against anyone, what i worry is if the US is ready to the massive ammount of fake news that will happen next year, or if it will be like every place where nothing was made to fight back or to suppress that.
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,682
Some of those comments are indeed anti-semitic but some are anti-zionist which is the the opposite of anti-semitic.

The problem exists though. But it doesn't matter. British Jews had no effect on the election. They are a tiny minority. Labour's problems went far deeper.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
I am saying the talk about potential anti-semititsm from those on the left is not all bad faith and that there area real incidents and concerns underlying it regarding his behavior that have nothing to do with politics regarding the right wing, center-left, or Israel's government.
But the potential anti-semitism from the left was USED in a bad faith sort of way. It's highly likely that the torries won because they created a narrative of blatant anti-semitism from Corbyn and Labour as a whole. Was that justified?
 

lacer

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,693
The Washington Examiner trying to paint Sanders as less than Jewish as a means of calling his campaign anti-semitic is some strong horse shit.
it's exactly par for the course. it's virtue signaling for Evangelicals who label anything but unilateral support for even the most conservative policies of the Isreali government antisemitic, despite their only concern about Jews is getting them back to the holy land to bring about the second coming. anything remotely critical Bernie says will be used as a cudgel to appeal to that crowd