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Activists toppled the Junipero Serra statue in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco
- Thread starter Loudninja
- Start date
- Status
You're right, I meant Serra. I'll correct it.
My fault for going between Twitter and Era and not double checking my post.
I'm not concerned about what bigots think; I'm concerned about what actions bigots use, because as much as we like to tout the moral high-ground, a lot of reason we're seeing progress right now isn't because so many people are "woke" and knew it was morally the right thing to do, but because they were pressured by large-scale masses to go against their own interests and bigotry.
It is utterly of importance to keep the forward momentum going and maintain control of the narrative. I'm not saying it's lost, but when reports of statues being targeted outside of Confederate monuments erected specifically to intimidate Black communities - ones of The Founding Fathers, Missionaries, and Union Generals - it absolutely does muddy the waters.
No, don't listen to the bigots, but there are enough people who are in the middle, ones who can and will be swayed, and you can say "screw them" but they're the ones we need right now, the ones to convince. "If they haven't chosen a side by now, they're morons". And maybe that's the case, but I can only attest that tearing down a statue of a guy unrelated to the confederacy and unrelated to black oppression - someone worthy of criticism but also not in unanimous agreement within the Native American community of his legacy - is deviating from the focus that is needed at this time.
It's not about winning over the bigots; it's about giving them legit ammunition to attempt to discredit the progress being made, which is a very real and potent possibility in this administration and nation at large.
And as a Native American, we haven't been waiting. We've been petitioning local government and fellow tribal leaders to discuss the merits of these statues. The issue is we aren't at a consensus. That's the big take-away.
We like to think it's black-and-white, but it's more nuanced than that. As I stated earlier, I wouldn't be upset if his remaining statues were removed because I understand how parts of my community feel, but other Native Americans legitimately venerate him and considering him an ally to Native American rights. There is good and bad with the man that is a lot more complicated than just taking down statues of a pro-slavery regime that only existed to own people as property and fought to maintain the right to treat them like cattle.
There's a big difference in history, intent, and consensus.
That seems more like a generalized attack against any and all religious symbolism of Christianity in the nation. You could make that argument for any and all monuments to any practitioner of the Christian faith, at any point in American (and global) history.
This is why I continue believe it's important not to lose focus and that we need to go after the "easier" targets pertaining to Confederate ideology (because THAT'S NOT EASY. There are 1503 of the f***ing things left in the nation!).
It's not that I don't want other reform, other conversations, and other monuments removed; it's that logically there has to be an attack plan.
Fight damn hard right now, but fight smart and don't fight ignorant.
The SS didn't help found the country of Germany. I'm not arguing against your point about Washington but I don't think it's fair to compare the two. Someone like the first German emperor would make more sense, no?
William I, German Emperor - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I don't know his politics very well (at all).
The argument that just because you've founded a state that all future generations should revere you is ridiculous. Washington was a slave owning piece of shit. If democratic revolution comes to say North Korea, would the argument that the Kim family founded the modern North Korean state be a reasonable stance when people rightfully decide to tear down their monuments?
Canada's first Prime Minister was an Indigenous hating monster. Our current government has been talking about reconciliation with our Indigenous people since 2015. But how can you have true reconciliation with an oppressed people if the majority of the people and the state revere the very people who took part and helped the very oppression we're trying reconcile?
Now this is something people will have much harder time swallowing. The first president of the nation and commander of the rebel army, plus a saint. Even when they do have their share of shits on their past, to the common folk this is most likely a step too far.
It feels good to see those statues of historical people going down, I'm absolutely sure of it, but these actions will be used against the movement. You reap what you sow.
It feels good to see those statues of historical people going down, I'm absolutely sure of it, but these actions will be used against the movement. You reap what you sow.
I know there's not system for simply liking a post and moving on, so I'll just say, couldn't have said any better (and I've tried). These are the generally the same conversations I have with the same general concerns being pushed, and my responses are trying to find the above words in a way they just flat out understand.
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Those common folk need to be challenged and confronted with what those monuments actually mean. Making them uncomfortable is exactly why it should be done.
The Missions in California are gross. I grew up in the south so I had no exposure to what the Missions were. For some bizarre reason California had all 4th graders do a "Mission Project" that typically resulted in the student building a replica of a specific Mission and doing a report on said Mission.
We took my daughter to one and when I got inside and started to learn about it I was sickened. The people working there act like it's some great thing and I'm supposed to walk around like it's no big deal. Each Mission is a monument to racism, slavery and the eradication of culture.
It's fucking bizarre to me that in 2020 we still have these things up and people are OK with it.
My daughter did her presentation on a Mission where the slaves revolted and burned it down.
We took my daughter to one and when I got inside and started to learn about it I was sickened. The people working there act like it's some great thing and I'm supposed to walk around like it's no big deal. Each Mission is a monument to racism, slavery and the eradication of culture.
It's fucking bizarre to me that in 2020 we still have these things up and people are OK with it.
My daughter did her presentation on a Mission where the slaves revolted and burned it down.
I will just say this and leave it at that. You keep using "We" but keep putting restrictions and roadblocks on "we". Framing how shit progresses through the lenses of folks that do nothing but live to stop it has worked out so well the last 400 years as the last month has shown
Huh, that's 3 blocks away (the Francis Scott Key one). Wasn't aware as I've been avoiding the park with how packed its been.
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I have done no such thing. I have said I understand the support of anyone who wants the statue removed, and there are many areas I am in agreement with them on, and that I wouldn't shed any tears.
My stance is, historically, progress is often stalled or halted when a narrative loses focus and its targets aren't made clear. Again, tearing down statues of Confederate Generals and Leaders - especially given who erected them, when, where, and why - is different than tearing down a statue of U.S. Grant or Junipero Serra.
I can only speak my own perspective as a Native American and of my own conversations with the Native American community, sharing that there is not a universal agreement on these things the same way I would believe the vast majority of Black Americans despise Confederate shrines.
I am Indigenous. I have complicated feelings on the matter.
Sure, go off. That wasn't my point at all but this clearly isn't the right topic for it and there's a lot of emotion.
My apologies for derailing or misconstruing anyone else's position.
I can see there's a valid argument to be made that maybe none of these people should have statues, or even anyone in general.
In practice, I think there is also such a thing as diminishing returns at work. It can be argued that the more controversial a tactic becomes, the more the resulting debate will reduce the momentum of the entire movement (unless you are literally carrying out an armed revolution and winning, but that's neither here nor there). Many will cheer taking down Confederate monuments, but I don't think the majority of the U.S. population is at the point where you'll get the same number of cheers when it comes to Washington or Grant.
Which means the protesters doing this to statues of Washington et al, while perhaps ethically justified, may tend to lose rather than gain sympathy as a result. That's a bad thing, frankly, if you're trying to increase and expand the support for all sorts of structural and policy changes that still need to be done.
In practice, I think there is also such a thing as diminishing returns at work. It can be argued that the more controversial a tactic becomes, the more the resulting debate will reduce the momentum of the entire movement (unless you are literally carrying out an armed revolution and winning, but that's neither here nor there). Many will cheer taking down Confederate monuments, but I don't think the majority of the U.S. population is at the point where you'll get the same number of cheers when it comes to Washington or Grant.
Which means the protesters doing this to statues of Washington et al, while perhaps ethically justified, may tend to lose rather than gain sympathy as a result. That's a bad thing, frankly, if you're trying to increase and expand the support for all sorts of structural and policy changes that still need to be done.
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The history of colonialism and oppression of native people in this country matters. We should not exclude or ignore reckoning with it. Emphatically no.
And that includes missionaries, coming to this land to paint over native, established belief systems and culture with Christianity.
It's sort of disgusting how much J.Serra is littered around the state.
The dude oversaw the use of Native American slaves to build his missions then straight up retconned the fact that he killed hundreds of thousands of them to expand the Catholic religion.
They need to rename the hundreds of streets in the state named after him too.
The dude oversaw the use of Native American slaves to build his missions then straight up retconned the fact that he killed hundreds of thousands of them to expand the Catholic religion.
They need to rename the hundreds of streets in the state named after him too.
Oh trust me. I KNOW.
But I said these discussions are happening, but there IS NOT A CONSENSUS on the impact and legacy of certain figures, including Serra.
And I don't mean this to discredit the conversation happening, as I engage with it daily, but there is a complication in applying modern day sensibilities to historical figures. As I mentioned before, someone like Junipero Serra was in many cases widely considered a MORE progressive figure than his contemporaries, advocated for fair treatment of Native people, and stood up to local government and military officials who sought outright harm against the population. There is a discussion to be had for general colonialism and Native subjugation (that continues to this very day), but it's complicated when you realize every last single solitary white person in the nation at that time was arguably WORSE than he was and there are a lot of documented instances of him saving Native lives.
As I said before, there are 1500+ Confederate monuments to avowed racists who sought active harm and destitution for Black Americans, erected by racists with the intent of furthering that subjugation during key periods of civil progress and unrest.
Should we have a legit soul-searching moment of reconciliation with our Founding Fathers? Absolutely. Do we need to discuss the negatives of the legacy of white settlement often ignored or misinterpreted by our education system? Definitely.
But the history of American IS a history of colonialism, from the first contact from Europe all the way to this very second. There is merits to discussing the promotion of this same racially systemic issue by even the more recent presidential candidates, from Hillary Clinton to Joe Biden to any and every white person to hold congressional office.
And that's why it's overwhelming to reconcile and why a vast majority of Americans aren't able to do so.
That's why, again, I believe we need to take steps in the right direction and have discussions, which also includes the fact that historical figures like Junipero Serra are not universally reviled by the people he shares history with. Maybe sentiment towards him will shift, and maybe history will be illuminated on other elements of his character that perhaps we'd be ignorant about, but at this moment it's creating noise in the narrative, just as vandalizing and destroying a statue of the man who led the charge to FREE the slaves has also muddied the narrative.
Do we need to talk about Grant's failings? Sure, that conversation needs to happen too (he was a historically incompetent and corrupt President). But monuments are erected for reasons - by people with intent, for people in communities - and I am very aware of the differences between tearing down a shrine to an avowed racist erected by racists who fought a battle in defense of racism and a more complicated historical figure with a complicated legacy involved in the positives of peace, outreach, and chairty, and also mired in the cultural bog of colonialism and cultural erasure.
Again, as much as even I would like to see it erased, colonialism is America's entire history, and that's been true all the way to this present day. We need to be very careful when applying the No True Scotsman fallacy to that culture, but that's not a call to ignore it.
User Banned (3 months): Dismissing historical atrocities
I disagree with taking down Washington. Yes, he was a slave owner, and wasn't that great a general, but he was a universally loved President otherwise, and still a Revolutionary hero. It's ignoring all the good he did for this bad thing.
Fuck Serra, happy to see that statue go down. I never understood the natives that see him as something good considering what he did. Had to give up the culture if you want to survive, doesn't sound too good and you also need to work to be accepted into the Christian faith. Tear em all down.
It's not a little thing, and it shouldn't throw away the good he did.
If owning slaves doesn't what does?
It can't be stressed enough the fact that slavery is viewed this way Is the fucking problem. It's why we've gotten to this point.
In Washington's case, nothing. In the case of Francis Scott Key, nothing.
And that's the problem. That people view slavery as no big deal.
I think the people he owned might've had a sour view of the man.
you know, black lives actually matter
and our lives mattered then, even though America and Washington didn't see it that way
I hate this argument of "giving the other side ammunition". Just this week you have fox news faking news coverage in Seattle, last week they made a 75 year old man into an Antifa soldier. They make shit up anyways, so who gives a fuck.
User Banned (1 Month): Concern Trolling Over Concerns of Racism Over Multiple Posts
I'm more than fine with removing statues of Confederate traitors and other vile historical figures, but are we going to remove the statue of every person who owned slaves? I didn't agree with the Washington statue removal tbh. I'm ambivalent about removing Junipero. I agree this is muddying the waters. Washington is the father of our country, good or bad. We wouldn't have a place to do this right now, were not for him.
So like, fuck the descendants of the people he owned and used to build his fortune, right?
Nobody is asking to remove him from the history books. That not honoring him, not having statues for him, not putting him on money, is too fucking much to ask tells you exactly where certain people stand in this country.
Did I say that?
I'm a huge ally and I'm with you. We can converse without putting words into each others mouths, man.
A rich dude led a rebellion against other rich dudes because he didn't want to pay taxes if he wasn't getting a seat at the table. Then when he formed his little nation state and got his merry band of rich dudes together to decide who got to sit at their new table, they decided only other rich white dudes like themselves should be allowed to sit. No poor white men, no women, no free non-white people, and most of all no slaves can partake.
whether you intend to or not, that's exactly what your stance is saying to black people. "You're existence matters less than the other stuff he did"
History is most of the time nuanced. Taking down statues of Confederacy is fine, but I've seen Grant statues being demolished so great fucking job there America
Brutally owning people against their will and constantly raping them should be a bigger deal to everyone defending Washington statues but clearly isn't and I think that's the problem, not the removal of statues of people who brutally owned people against their will and constantly raped them
If feels like we're having to defend our own humanity right because you guys want us to be fine with statues of people who brutally owned people against their will
Is an "ally" something you get to call yourself or something that other people should consider and call you?
Right - so what I'm saying is where do we go? Are we going to remove all statues of Washington? The Washington Monument? Are we going to take down his paintings? I just don't agree with going that far in his case. All of our forefathers owned slaves, or the majority did. I'd much rather take down the ones who fought to keep slavery and educate our young and old on how misguided and ignorant our founding fathers were at the time on slavery. He owned slaves, which many people did at the time. It was wrong. More than wrong, it was absolutely the vilest thing humans have done in history, just about. There's some up there with it like the Holocaust and the nuclear bombings of Japan, of course.
Black people's existence matters and it matters more right than anything right now that we say that. I just want to explore this topic and get people's viewpoints more than anything.
A statue is honorary. It's propaganda. It's very rarely its own history. Don't get so caught up in the symbolism that you ignore the pain they caused.
Also stop treating slave owning like it was just that one mistake they made. They owned people. Black Lives Matter. Come on people, that's what we're here about. Don't diminish this.
Also stop treating slave owning like it was just that one mistake they made. They owned people. Black Lives Matter. Come on people, that's what we're here about. Don't diminish this.
Sadly, the U.S. is still a nation where a lot of veneration is given to those white leaders who originally established the country, even with all the racism and colonialism involved. It's always worth questioning, challenging and criticizing such a state of affairs, particularly the resulting historical narratives, but what's the most effective way to do that?
Toppling a Washington monument or statue isn't necessarily the best approach, nor likely to suddenly rally more folks to join the cause of anti-racism.
It matters because when there is some truth in the middle of all their lies ("look, we said they'll come for Washington and Jefferson..and they did!"), it becomes increasingly easier for vulnerable yet not inherently hateful people to accept the other claims they make (defending the horrible Confederate monuments, etc). That's why half-truths are often the most powerful and effective forms of propaganda. It's a good strategy for spreading paranoia and hate, which requires more of a response than taking down statues.
I snapped a pic of the Cervantes monument yesterday during my jog.
?????
Can someone explain this? It's not a well known fact but Cervantes was, for a short period of time, a slave itself.
You can educate without statues and monuments. In fact I'm guessing a lot of people are being educated more at these statues being torn down than they ever were by the statues and monuments themselves.
...I'm sorry but what did Francis Scott Key do that slavery will always be forgiven? Dude represented owners of escaped slaves and didn't want an immediate end to slavery even while saying he was against it.
That's a fair point and I bet you're right about the education going on right now. I know I'm learning a lot.
Edit (to remove a weird unnecessary word) I've read most of the founding father's biographies. Washington was definitely a shrewd slaver owner. He even hunted down a slave who escaped from him. There's no excusing that - at all.
I worry mainly, not for myself because I know I'm an accepting and rational person, that when we begin to mess with this we'll lose so much support.
what would honestly he so bad with removing statues, renaming monuments/schools/etc..., taking slave owners off the money, and limiting paintings and the like of actual historical significance to museums? Like what would you actually lose?
People cheer when the confederate flag is taken down (it only took 200 years let's pat ourselves on the back for that one) and when monuments to confederate soldiers, the people who fought to keep slavery, are torn apart, so why is the thought of not honoring and glorifying slave owners, people who participated and profited from the brutalization of an entire peoples for hundreds of years, suddenly a bridge too far?
I snapped a pic of the Cervantes monument yesterday during my jog.
If I'm not mistaken, those are Celtic crosses.
So are we supposed to believe that blm or antifa protestors would paint a known white supremacists symbol on a statue?
If you're worried about the potential for losing support, then focus your efforts on explaining why these statues are being taken down to people you know who are unsure about how to feel about it, do your part to help spread support for this, don't just say "oh well I would agree with you but actually I don't because we might lose support
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