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Activists toppled the Junipero Serra statue in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco
- Thread starter Loudninja
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It is getting to a point where I think we should be focusing mostly on Confederate statues and monuments specifically erected to intimidate Black people by the Daughters of the Confederacy... I feel like this is starting to muddy the conversation and I would like to avoid that.
Stuff like this and the Washington statue may have merits in their removal, but I personally think this isn't the battle to have at this point.
Stuff like this and the Washington statue may have merits in their removal, but I personally think this isn't the battle to have at this point.
Nah this was needed. How do you think Native Americans felt about having statues of this man around?
Definitely going to be a controversial one. Junipero Serra's legacy isn't really settled. He's sort of a "give with one hand, take with the other" figure - like, he was a mostly merciful guy, and did try to protect Native Americans from the unmitigated violence of the Spanish. But the very act of evangelism and structure of the mission system was the eradication of native culture so you can't just give him a pass for being relatively good, considering the circumstances.
But like, he's literally - like, according to the Catholic church - the patron saint of Hispanic Americans. So perception here is gonna be iffy.
But like, he's literally - like, according to the Catholic church - the patron saint of Hispanic Americans. So perception here is gonna be iffy.
He was a result of Jesuits being expelled and suppressed all over
Strongly Disagree.
Native Americans have their own specific grievances that aren't necessarily related to specifically confederate statues.
Yep this is the slippery slope conservatives want. Let's stick to the confederates and Columbus for now.
Our educational system at work. Most people are ignorant to history.
It seems like people are doing this more for fun. The cheers you hear sounds like they are having way too much fun as a mob.
It was the Grant statue at Golden Gate Park. I think they also toppled the one of Cervantes. Not a great look honestly.
Well, you didn't provide any receipts for this, so I can't comment more specifically, but you shouldn't assume that every left-wing person is intelligent and/or educated, and you shouldn't assume that every person who topples a statue is left-wing.
So proud of those people. Topple those fucking statues.
Saw this live-streamed last night. The only time since moving last year that I've missed living in SF across the street from GGP. Would've loved to have been a part of that.
Saw this live-streamed last night. The only time since moving last year that I've missed living in SF across the street from GGP. Would've loved to have been a part of that.
They pulled down statues of Grant?
Look, I'm all for removing statues of any Confederate traitors, but as soon as statues of Grant and Washington start falling, the conversation does get muddied. Any consensus that was built will start getting lost in the "they're challenging ALL American heritage" bubble.
This is where having more specific grievances would honestly help. Which, of course, presupposes some kind of national organization.
So are we just going to destroy all monuments now? What's next, paintings? I'm starting to get hints of the cultural revolution in terms of destroying all art from the past here.....
Can't speak for them all, but I'm Native American, and I have a complicated interpretation of the man, as do thousands of other Native Americans. MANY Native Americans actually love the guy and credit him as an important figure in their history, especially those that ascribe to the Christian faith.
History is not settled on him, is what I'm getting at, and that's including within the Native American community. Some view him as an example of hastening the decline of Native traditions and beliefs and imposing religion and western sensibilities on the people here, while others have embraced him as a leader who came from a place of sincere devotion, who spent his life feeding and educating the people and building bridges between the indigenous people and western settlers, including standing up to many soldiers who wished to remove or kill us.
It's hard to judge a man like that considering the time he worked in and to apply modern cultural sensibilities to his actions, just as we continue to venerate slave-owner George Washington, the Father of America.
Ultimately, my personal belief is there's too much gray area for Junipero Serra as a person to make a call right now, and my long-standing fear is that taking such action now only muddies the conversation about the legitimately overt, indefensible monuments to American racists, traitors, and hate-mongers.
As I stated above, I'm Native American and me and many others are not in unanimous agreement on this one.
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Right its crazy, all this shit needs to be torn down ,.These are all symbols of hate and oppression.
"To [Grant] more than any other man the negro owes his enfranchisement and the Indian a humane policy. In the matter of the protection of the freedman from violence his moral courage surpassed that of his party; hence his place as its head was given to timid men, and the country was allowed to drift, instead of stemming the current with stalwart arms."
Frederick Douglas
Frederick Douglas
I mean, George Washington was a slave owner. I think the idea that people have had "slave owner" brushed aside as parts of their legacy is a huge part of the problem and a huge part of the backlash and pent up frustrations we are seeing now.
Some reddit folks seem to think the Cervantes defacement thing is white nationalists trying to stir the pot, apparently the graffiti on the sculpture is a white nationalist symbol.
I don't have any particular love of these statues, but yeah, keep your eyes on the prize. As a Seattle resident I can assure you there is a very real risk of deflating the movement by forgetting what it's about and letting it turn too much into just a "generalized" protest against whatever anyone happens to not like.
The George Floyd BLM protests have been most successful where they've been most focused. As soon as people start saying to themselves, "I don't understand what we're doing or why" the momentum stalls and it can turn into a do-nothing Occupy type situation.
The George Floyd BLM protests have been most successful where they've been most focused. As soon as people start saying to themselves, "I don't understand what we're doing or why" the momentum stalls and it can turn into a do-nothing Occupy type situation.
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Yep it pisses me off right now how people want to ignore this shit.
Then it needs to be addressed in schools and things like that, yes slavery is our national shame but we can't pretend it didn't happen. Junipero Serra did a lot more good than bad imo and so did GW.
I feel like there is a middle ground and as an example Germany has done a great job with how they address teaching and talking about the holocaust, feel like we could learn from them.
There are totally valid conversations to be had about a lot of these people. Especially the Founding Fathers. But after ages it feels like we finally have a chance to take out all the statues of the Confederates whose entire careers and historical memory were based on oppression. I'd hate to waste that.
Is this true? Because that would make me upset given everything Grant did.
Tear it all down. If our past is shitty, we shouldn't build monuments and statues to commemorate that.
The issue is the South and they're fuckwit rewriting of history have tried to paint Grant as a rough and aloof General and corrupt politician while erasing his Civil Rights record completely. That way they can build up Lee as the honorable and genius military commander who only lost because Grant had more men to throw at him.
I see your point. But of those that don't ascribe to the Christian faith? And the one's that see him as a reason they've lost their history, culture, and language? He may not be seen as bad as others, but he had the same mindset of seeing Natives as less than.
Yes, this. Please stay focused.
As a Native man, I have long shared the realities that Native American people are some of the most prone to having their lives ended by police encounters, often higher than Black Men.
Native women are statistically the highest group to be targeted for sexual violence.
While I am THRILLED to be actively involved in the BLM movement and protests, Native Americans remain the silently oppressed, and I don't mean to turn this into a "whataboutism" display of downplaying the pain and racism that being black in America entails.
Rather, there are clear examples of Native oppression that deserve focus and governmental reform. Right now, however, it would not be to the benefit of Black Americans or Native Americans to lose the focus on reform by going after people or symbols that that same community is not in accord on. The public shift is in our favor, but needs to be focused at the targets that are the most indefensible for their erection and inclusion, the most obvious miscarriages of justice and equality.
There needs to be a conversation about Native American oppression - and about Junipero Serra - but even the Native American community has not come to a conclusion on him, and I don't feel comfortable having that decision made for us at this time, especially as it does risk lessening the impact of the current protests and fuels the fire for the bigots who are claiming our actions are directionless and anarchistic.
And I understand, and I understand any negative views from my fellow Native Americans. There are a lot of Christian Native Americans, but even many who aren't in that faith, many still viewed him as a net positive force that helped Native Americans adapt to western expansion when there was a serious risk of more violent and genocidal encounters (as has happened many other places in this nation, sadly). I'm not saying he was an altogether positive force, don't get me wrong, only that culturally many here viewed him as the best outcome.
His views weren't unique, and that's where it's historically complicated. ALL white settlers shared the same mindset as him, almost without exception, but his views towards Natives were significantly more considerate than most. That's where things get so muddy, as he often historically fought for fair treatment of Native Americans with governors and military, wrote about how he considered them children of God, and advocated against retribution towards hostile Native Americans who slew members of his church or entourage.
I understand anyone who doesn't want him enshrined, but I also know far too many who view him as one of the "better" settlers out of the millions that viewed Natives as disposable or sub-human.
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What? I feel this has either been white supremacists, cause he is a great target for them to take down as counteract for the Confederate statues being taken down, or some people have lost a bit of the plot.
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I was having a conversation with my mother specifically on her worries on this slippery slope and I had assuaged her saying it wasn't the case. The Confederacy targeted because America shouldn't be idolizing a traitorous rebel state who's used as a symbol for white supremacy, and Columbus targeted because he was a nobody glorified solely to make Italians feel more white.
This is honestly going too far for me. This is accelerating from re-examining the Confederacy's place in American history to going full-on cultural revolution. And I do think it's valid to look back and recognize the problematic nature of our heroes and re-examine how we view them in our history, but these are several big conversations that we haven't had yet, and I don't think it helps anyone to widen the net so much that we lose sight of what we're trying to capture.
This is honestly going too far for me. This is accelerating from re-examining the Confederacy's place in American history to going full-on cultural revolution. And I do think it's valid to look back and recognize the problematic nature of our heroes and re-examine how we view them in our history, but these are several big conversations that we haven't had yet, and I don't think it helps anyone to widen the net so much that we lose sight of what we're trying to capture.
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