• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Cass_Se

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,125
The scope of the story had sadly overwhelmed him. You could see it in AFFC/ADWD as he was adding more and more characters to flesh out the world, but back then he could have blamed it all on Mereneese knot, over and over again. Now GRRM keeps silent and it feels like he has no clue how to progress with the story. I still think believe is a chance TWOW will come out and it will be a massive clusterfuck of equal parts briliance and completely unnecessary bloat, but ADOS will remain a pipe dream.

E: Honestly, I just wish he doesn't cut TWOW's climax from the book the way he excised AFFC/ADWD's conclusion and pushed it to TWOW. Though I imagine conjuring a satisfying ending to TWOW would be hell
 
Mar 31, 2018
616
The ironic thing is: George R. R. Martin was planning to make a trilogy of A Song of Ice and Fire before writing it. The stories have now become so extensive that it is even questioned that the whole story can be told in seven books.

The trilogy was originally structured as follows: A Game of Thrones, A Dance with Dragons and the Winds of Winter. George R. R. Martin used to want to include a large part of A Clash of Kings in the first book. It was eventually moved. Just as George R. R. originally planned to make A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons together with a large part of Winds of Winter (Battle of Fire, Battle on Ice) into one book. It became three.

I think it's likely that the Winds of Winter will appear in two books, in the United States anyway. In most countries in Europe it will be four.

Unlike most fans, I am a big fan of the many POV characters and the slow progress in the storyline in favor of worldbuilding. However, I hate the geographical split at ADWD/AFFC, the structure of A Ball of Beasts is much better. If these two books had originally been combined, they would have been my favorite books in the series.
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
E: Honestly, I just wish he doesn't cut TWOW's climax from the book the way he excised AFFC/ADWD's conclusion and pushed it to TWOW. Though I imagine conjuring a satisfying ending to TWOW would be hell
What if all the chapters he's writing are between end of ADwD and the climax, and ADwD conclusion is pushed to the next, next book?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
Remember four or five years ago when his publishers were convinced he was nearly done and went ahead and hired a bunch of translators and HBO delayed the premier of the new season to coincide with a book launch?

I can't believe it's been 9 years since ADwD already. My life has changed so much since then - it's ridiculous.

Can I buy the Novellas that are not Dunk & Egg somewhere standalone? I dont need the Anthologybooks that they are part of.

No but they're material which was included/expanded upon in Fire & Blood, so if you read that you're set.
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
next year we will get the announcement of the 8th book



we have not even entered act 2 proper


and dead povs wont shorten things


the characters with the most chapters aren't dieing


arya stark is already confirmed to have a novella length of chapters in winds


and arya ain't dieing until the end or more likely survives to the epilogue


and she of course has like 100 chapters of wondering the riverlands


basically you need to kill arya to finish the series
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
and arya ain't dieing until the end or more likely survives to the epilogue
Think Arya might die in the end due to a line in the first book from Jon to her regarding her needle work:

"When winter thaws, they'll find you frozen with a needle in hand"

This was also before giving her the sword, and naming it Needle iirc.
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
Remember four or five years ago when his publishers were convinced he was nearly done and went ahead and hired a bunch of translators and HBO delayed the premier of the new season to coincide with a book launch?
I'm a Patron for NotACast, and the two hosts have said more than once that they've heard from George's editor that TWOW was basically completed in 2015, but he wasn't happy with it and scrapped the majority of the book. That put him in a deep depression that destroyed his writing momentum, and it wasn't until the publication of F&B that he started writing anything of consequence for TWOW again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
I'm a Patron for NotACast, and the two hosts have said more than once that they've heard from George's editor that TWOW was basically completed in 2015, but he wasn't happy with it and scrapped the majority of the book. That put him in a deep depression that destroyed his writing momentum, and it wasn't until the publication of F&B that he started writing anything of consequence for TWOW again.

That makes a lot of sense. There are so many dead ends and discarded drafts in writing the average novel. I can't even begin to fathom the amount of material Martin must have burned through for a project of this scale.
 

RatskyWatsky

Are we human or are we dancer?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,931
I'm a Patron for NotACast, and the two hosts have said more than once that they've heard from George's editor that TWOW was basically completed in 2015, but he wasn't happy with it and scrapped the majority of the book. That put him in a deep depression that destroyed his writing momentum, and it wasn't until the publication of F&B that he started writing anything of consequence for TWOW again.

iirc he scrapped a ton of material for the original fourth book, so that wouldn't be entirely unprecedented.
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
A lot has been written about the complexity of the Meerenese knot, but I feel that there is a North knot in TWOW that will be even harder to untangle. We have:

- Stannis and his army
- Theon and Asha
- Roose and his "allies"
- Jon and The Night's Watch
- The Wildlings
- Davos and Rickon
- Bran and Bloodraven
- Melisandre and the Queen's Men at Castle Black
- Selyse and Shireen at the Nightfort
- The Tully household guard taking the Black
- Manderly army/fleet not in Winterfell
- Justin Massey, Tycho Nestoris and Jeyne Poole
- Alys Karstark and Sigorn of Thenn
- Arya
- Potentially The Brotherhood Without Banners
- Potentially Littlefinger and Sansa

All these groups need to tie together somehow to move the story forward. Yikes...
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
A lot has been written about the complexity of the Meerenese knot, but I feel that there is a North knot in TWOW that will be even harder to untangle. We have:

- Stannis and his army
- Theon and Asha
- Roose and his "allies"
- Jon and The Night's Watch
- The Wildlings
- Davos and Rickon
- Bran and Bloodraven
- Melisandre and the Queen's Men at Castle Black
- Selyse and Shireen at the Nightfort
- The Tully household guard taking the Black
- Manderly army/fleet not in Winterfell
- Justin Massey, Tycho Nestoris and Jeyne Poole
- Alys Karstark and Sigorn of Thenn
- Arya
- Potentially The Brotherhood Without Banners
- Potentially Littlefinger and Sansa

All these groups need to tie together somehow to move the story forward. Yikes...
after season 7 of the show I believe sansa is never making it back to winterfell



it's a storyline dead end for her
 

random88

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,289
Not US
"But I tell you this — if I don't have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I'm done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I'll be fine."

And, technically, he still didn't break his word. Damn, 2020...

Ok boys (and girls), this is the year. Winter is coming. I believe!

I'm sorry, ya'll...
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
giphy.gif
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
For Sansa you can really write a single chapter with a big cliffhanger, and have her show up much later with a lot of stuff having happened behind the scene.
For Arya, similarly, she just needs to bail out of Braavos.
Sam and Connington would meet at Old Town, difficult to cut this out, needed to reveal Jon Snow's true parentage and what not.

Dany can suddenly show up at the battle of Mereen with her Dothraki army, we can figure that they bowed to her now that she had a full grown dragon, the way her chapter ended was enough to know as much.
The battle of Mereen, because of Tyrion and Victarion, can't be cut too much, especially with all the build up to it.
Then post battle, Dany has to start burning all the sick people alive which will probably lead to her departing for Westeros.
This Dany stuff would take a lot of chapters, but I'd think she doesn't reach Westeros until the end of the book.

The stuff in Dorne leading to Myrcella's death and Dorne supporting Aegon.

Brienne/Jaime/The Hound is all about them killing Catelyn who "survived the red wedding", but not sure how this would turn out, other than Brienne finding out where Sansa is once Sansa is married and heading for her. Jaime probably goes back to Cersei when he hears of his daughter's death. The Hound, I guess he'd tag along with Brienne however that works out.

Cersei's trial, the Mountain slaying everyone and her supporters/troops waging a civil war on the people, which leads to Aegon being supported and taking over King's Landing (and killing the Mountain in the process, has to slay the "monster"), and Aegon becomes the beloved king, marries the Dorne queen.

The mess in the North, Jon's return, somehow all this getting tied up, and Davos coming back by skipping over whatever he did and just summing it up.

Dany arriving at Westeros.

Can this fit in a book? Feels complicated. Leaves a lot to settle in the next book. And it reminds me of how the show ended up having to cut so much to speed things up.
 

RatskyWatsky

Are we human or are we dancer?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,931
"But I tell you this — if I don't have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I'm done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I'll be fine."

And, technically, he still didn't break his word. Damn, 2020...

!!!
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I do wonder if she'll marry Aegon, though Arianne seems a more likely candidate right now.

I think Bran will body-snatch a comatose Aegon, rule as king, and marry Sansa, but first Aegon would marry Arianne who would probably die in some attack (which leads him to end up comatose).

But I guess if the show literally made Bran king, I guess he will literally be king for all to see, not just through a sneak body-snatch.
 
Last edited:

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
In regards to Bran, I favour the theory that he will eventually rule from the Isle of Faces as a High King/advisor to other rulers, and the Seven Kingdoms will become largely independent again.
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
I do wonder if she'll marry Aegon, though Arianne seems a more likely candidate right now.
I feel winds will have 4 kings landing povs

1sy cersei
then joncon
then arianne
and then sansa

cersei will die probably trying to blow up the golden company ( Jaime will choke her and then fuck off to the night's watch to replace jon and mel ad the wall pov)

grey scale will get to jon con after

arianne will finalise dornish support for faegon and probs create a negative narrative against dany when quentyn news reaches west

and then sansa because I believe she will marry into the blackfyres it be poetic for varys and little finger to start on the same "side" in support of Robert then ending up back together one with the king as a puppet the other the queen


I also predict faegon will be popular with the lords if the realm but unpopular with the smallfolks
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
No way will Aegon be unpopular with the people. People will hate the Lannisters and welcome Aegon back when he kills the boogeyman zombie Robert the Strong and the mad queen. Probably supported by the sparrows or whatever is left of them after it all. The lords would likely not like him since he is at the head of a company. It would be Dany's arrival with her army of comic book villains that will lead them to rally behind him, and the fact the people praise him.
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
No way will Aegon be unpopular with the people. People will hate the Lannisters and welcome Aegon back when he kills the boogeyman zombie Robert the Strong and the mad queen. Probably supported by the sparrows or whatever is left of them after it all. The lords would likely not like him since he is at the head of a company. It would be Dany's arrival with her army of comic book villains that will lead them to rally behind him, and the fact the people praise him.
I also think Barristan is going to turncloak to Aegon. Barristan is the most popular and beloved knight in Westeros by lords and smallfolk alike, and his support would add serious legitimacy to Aegon's claim in the eyes of the people.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I also think Barristan is going to turncloak to Aegon. Barristan is the most popular and beloved knight in Westeros by lords and smallfolk alike, and his support would add serious legitimacy to Aegon's claim in the eyes of the people.

Yeah that sounds likely, especially since he is quite close to Dany as a guide, so him dropping her sounds like something GRRM would do, as Dany charts her "must conquer no matter what" course. I think Dany is supposed to look like your typical villain, with an army of "monsters", so Barristan not being at her side would fit with that. She's supposed to be seen by Westeros as a mad conqueror, even if we know as readers that there is more substance to her character and intents. An army of Iron Borns, Dothrakis, Unsullied, three dragons, and eventually supported by "Jon the bastard, false heir to the Iron Throne" and his army of Wildlings.

Of course Dany will go north to save the day from the Others, but in doing so no one will believe the Others were ever a threat. If anything, the destruction in the north will be said to be of her and Jon's doing.
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
barristan's fate has been pretty interesting to think about over the past 9 years. many people believe he will die in the battle of meereen right at the start, and it's not hard to see why. there is a sense of finality to his chapters that makes it seem like his number is up, but then his whole thing with ashara would be pretty pointless. one way for it to shake out would be if septa lemore is ashara and barristan abandons dany for aegon when he finds out.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
barristan's fate has been pretty interesting to think about over the past 9 years. many people believe he will die in the battle of meereen right at the start, and it's not hard to see why. there is a sense of finality to his chapters that makes it seem like his number is up, but then his whole thing with ashara would be pretty pointless. one way for it to shake out would be if septa lemore is ashara and barristan abandons dany for aegon when he finds out.

Him dying makes sense too, because it would remove the guiding hand for Dany. So dying, or dropping her, both are very likely I think. And let's face it, George is going to kill some characters for sure to trim things down more than maybe originally anticipated.

Here is an OT for re-reading the ASOIAF books: link

If you are looking for a topic for books in general, I did not find a recent unlocked topic.



Found this! https://www.resetera.com/threads/what-are-you-reading-ot-one-thread-to-rule-them-all.156350/unread

And btw I posted a book I read, The Desert of the Tartars. I am almost certain GRRM was inspired by it regarding his writing of The Wall/Nightwatch. Highly recommended. The main character is even named Giovanni Drogo.

Often likened to Kafka's The Castle, The Tartar Steppe is both a scathing critique of military life and a meditation on the human thirst for glory. It tells of young Giovanni Drogo, who is posted to a distant fort overlooking the vast Tartar steppe. Although not intending to stay, Giovanni suddenly finds that years have passed, as, almost without his noticing, he has come to share the others' wait for a foreign invasion that never happens.

Basically a big wall/fort overlooking a desert where they are waiting for an enemy that never comes since centuries.
 
Last edited:

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
barristan's fate has been pretty interesting to think about over the past 9 years. many people believe he will die in the battle of meereen right at the start, and it's not hard to see why. there is a sense of finality to his chapters that makes it seem like his number is up, but then his whole thing with ashara would be pretty pointless. one way for it to shake out would be if septa lemore is ashara and barristan abandons dany for aegon when he finds out.
If Barristan turncloaks, it won't be for love. He left the country to seek out Viserys because he believed him to be the rightful heir to the throne, but Aegon has a stronger claim than both Viserys and Daenerys. I think a combination of him wanting to support the rightful heir and Dany returning to Meereen as a full-blown conqueror with the khalasar under her control will force his hand.
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
I expect dany to go everywhere in western essos in winds


conquer all the dothraki from dragon back

settle things in slavers bay with them

go back to quarth on dragon back for a bit

attack volantis and burn down the black walls


and lead the dothraki through each free city on the way to pentos


now she won't go to every free city literally but with a big army she can just send smaller forces to say norvos in her name
and those battles can be off screen


I think George intents her last pov in winds to be on dragon stone but he might run out of space and we get some awkward end to her arc in the book
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
She conquered Slaver's Bay in a surprisingly short number of pages in ASOS. If George commits to toning down some of the dialogue and descriptive language, he can definitely have her demolish Eastern Essos on her way to Westeros and have enough time to land at Dragonstone.
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
She conquered Slaver's Bay in a surprisingly short number of pages in ASOS. If George commits to toning down some of the dialogue and descriptive language, he can definitely have her demolish Eastern Essos on her way to Westeros and have enough time to land at Dragonstone.
dothraki sea "becuase she will indivually conquer each khalasara and vaaes dothrak, no 2nd vurning like the show) slavers bay (settle things meet peoppe)and volantis I see taking a lot of chapters


every other location and city being 1 chapter or 2
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
I don't think we'll see every city. Likely just Vaes Dothrak and Volantis (which will be her big "conqueror" moment).
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I really think Dany is introduced arriving at Mereen with the Dothrakis. No need to cover how she gets them to follow her. And all her actions some time after Tyrion joins her would be described through what people in Westeros hear about what is happening in Essos. Next time we see her, she is landing in Westeros.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I don't think modern George offscreens something like that

I can't imagine how we could get much more of Dany considering we need the battle of Mereen, her return, the aftermath of the war leading to her decision to head to Westeros, and at least set sail for it in this book. Considering everything else that is supposed to happen I can't imagine her getting more pages going around Essos.

Also I really think she will burn everyone infected with the pale mare. Greyscale is likely to spread at the wall, so we'll see how Jon deals with a similar situation.
 

Cass_Se

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,125
Between Dany getting Dothraki's loyalty offscreen and GRRM taking the entirety of TWOW to meticulously explain every little detail of Dothraki culture, tribal composition and their dietary customs I think the latter is highly more probable
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
we think jon gets his pov back or he stone hearted


we have mel and Davos as potential follower povs for king jon


of course his res is probably different with the skin changer blood combined with dragon blood combined with red God magic
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
i really have no idea how martin can fit everything in winds. pretty much all povs from feast and dance are still alive except maybe quentyn, and he still needs to finish the battles from dance which will probably take at least couple hundred pages. i imagine he could cut out a bunch of povs without killing them if he gets them in the same location, but we already know that relatively minor characters like barristan, aeron and arianne will have several chapters, so i don't know.
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
If TWOW and ADOS keep the pace of ASOS, it can be done. But modern George doesn't write that way, so I'm not sure he can tone it down enough to complete it in two weeks.

Not that it matters - ADOS will likely never happen.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,659
So something I don't remember exactly about ADWD, but at the end Dany got her period again right? So that means she's probably gonna get pregnant again eventually? And why did that even happen anyway? I thought she had a curse of some sort.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
So something I don't remember exactly about ADWD, but at the end Dany got her period again right? So that means she's probably gonna get pregnant again eventually? And why did that even happen anyway? I thought she had a curse of some sort.

I don't even remember that.How did that go again ?
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
anti pregnancy magic is just really random


especially for the inconsistent magic systems of ice and fire


were skin changing is basically a super power that's a muscle with no real sacrifice if you use it properly

then there's shadow binding were you scarier a part of your soul to make a shadow demon that kills 1 person

then there's whatever the fuck 1st men rune magic was

whatever the fuck rhoynish water magic was


make woman barren is just a really random spell to exist and be known by a random village witch even one that trained with marywan


I assume mirra was bullshitting



daario has weak seed
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,659
I guess it's just random BS. After reading the actual quote again

"When will he [Drogo] be as he was?" Dany demanded. "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur, "When the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

I suppose technically the prophecy/curse was about Drogo and not really Dany.
I don't even remember that.How did that go again ?
It's the part where she was shatting until she should shat no more. Then her monthly flow came about or something.
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
sometimes I just randomly think about Preston Jacobs joking about the kings landing Christian community



based on the crosses they forgot to edit out in the shitty bells episode