Sure, let's talk about global wealth redistribution so that exploited laborers of the global south can afford to buy food at markets with sanitation standards and technology equal to those found in Europe or the US.
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A real, not-clickbaity, average Chinese wet market
- Thread starter Richiek
- Start date
Sure, let's talk about global wealth redistribution so that exploited laborers of the global south can afford to buy food at markets with sanitation standards and technology equal to those found in Europe or the US.
So it's not true that SARS and covid-19 started in one of these markets?
And it's not true that they have very low sanitary issues and animal abuse issues?
Is it not true that these people cannot better themselves or any of this because of an oppressive government?
I want serious answers.
And it's not true that they have very low sanitary issues and animal abuse issues?
Is it not true that these people cannot better themselves or any of this because of an oppressive government?
I want serious answers.
SARS yes, Covid-19 is still entirely unclear. I think it's commonly known that it had a mass outbreak in one but did not start in one?
Sanitary issues is entirely dependent on economic level. People don't realise that parts of china are still poor as fuck. If you think caged hens are animal abuse then it's about that level, but check your source of protein next time if you don't think the western livestock system isn't similarly cruel due to mass consumption.
It's because they're poor as fuck dude. They slaughter them there because it's cheaper than running a supply chain that includes an abattoir. The government probably plays a role but these types of markets have been in place in the country way before the CCP came into power lmao. If anything there're slightly more standards now.
Also these types of markets are prevalent all throughout Asia and Southeast Asia lol. Why don't people ask for the closure of wet markets outside of China too?
Like honestly I don't understand why people think the CCP somehow invented wet markets lol.
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I can only chime in to this. Street food is almost impossible nowadays to get in Tier 1 cities unless you drive to the outskirts. It is strictly regulated there and even in the outskirts of those cities its getting harder and harder to find those places.
After all this, I am pretty sure markets will be more closely observed. A friend of my mom in law who works at a normal market (not wet market) selling kaolengmian said that since a few months already (around September/October) every week the stalls get inspected by Chengguan.
Yeah I heard that Hong Kong street stalls were being phased out even before the riots.
Wet markets in general are not a problem when they are regulated properly. The issue is with markets selling exotic animals, alive or dead. The problem with so many in this thread is that they refuse to listen to others telling them that wet markets come in all shapes and sizes. The video shows that these markets can be clean and well run.
This is one that is in Singapore. Decades ago we were also selling live animals and slaughtering them at the markets. Pretty sure in the 70s and before we probably also had dubious meats as well. Regulations and good enforcement came in and we generally have no problems whatsoever.
Singapore Wetmarket Tour
Chan Ah Beng Trading (2007) started in 1985. The company has been providing customers with fresh vegetables and other organic vegetables flown in from Austra...
youtu.be
Fish and seafood are generally bought from the ports every day or every other day. Meats have to kept in fridges. Everything is pretty much clean and well organised.
The virus might have originated from a market but it is definitely not just a wet market, but one that illegal sells wildlife. China has to step up and eliminate these places or have some form of regulations controlling these meats if possible. The issues that Asians have is whenever the western media goes "wet markets are hideous" and all they show are those exotic wildlife ones, when many wet markets in Asia are actually run well and not causing all kinds of disease spreading.
I personally hate wet markets even as a Singaporean, because I generally don't like to see and smell dead animals even though I have no problem eating them. But to dismiss all wet markets as being unsanitary is simply wrong and ignorant.
And tbh, wet markets in many countries are seen as 'safer' than the more western style of meat/food distribution system. There's lot of food safety checks and controls in the whole supply chain in a country like Germany or America (supposedly). Think what might be the situation in China or India for similar supply chains where inspectors are easily bribed or even non-existent. So a lot of end customers want to see the animal live before buying it.
Yeah, it's really not that hard. If the issue is one of terminology, come up with new terminology. In the meantime, it's obvious that what people are calling for is the closure of markets with live exotic animals being kept live and in close proximity to each other. That doesn't change whether you call them blood markets, exotic-slaughter-markets or whatever else.
Anecdotally, wet markets of the kind shown in the video have been the rule in Spain for many years (we just call them "markets"), although they're becoming less common in recent years and replaced with supermarkets. Until this very moment I hadn't realized I had never seen one in American media.
I mean the real problem is that people are acting like all wet markets are the same and freaking out over your everyday wet market opening in China as if they all sell exotic animals as an obvious racist dog whistle.
And according to the uploader of the video they've banned wildlife and the wildlife trade already. Now whether how hard that's enforced...
An analogy I can think of in the US & Europe is when people talk about "Dive Bars." 'Dive bar' the word originated from London about disreputable gin houses in cellars with no health standards where patrons could serve themselves from a gin barrel, "diving in" if they wanted.
Today in the US, a "Dive bar" could be anything from a hipster-y upscale expensive craft beer bar that tries really hard to make it "divey," but is really one of the most expensive bars in the city ... To an actual fucking dump with no health standards and people shooting heroin in the bathroom where you have a non-zero-percentage chance to get shanked by a neonazi. The placed with pickled eggs and sausage in a vinegar jar behind the bar and "bathtub liquor" if you know how to ask for it (although... even bathtub liquor is another misnomer). The places you can gamble illegally if you know what questions to ask the bartender. Many upscale cities in the US will have "dive bars" which are really hoighty toity fancy bars that try really hard to mascarade as a dive bar, and then blocks away you'll have a legit dive. They're all called "dive bars" colloquially but people who live in those cities and know the bar scene know which ones are real dives and which ones aren't.
Also people acting like black markets don't exist like... everywhere.
Some sell cocaine, some sell pangolins.
Some sell cocaine, some sell pangolins.
Again, the problem here is that "wet market" is incorrectly being used to describe something a lot more specific. History teaches us that the appropriate way to remedy this is to coin a new term (let's call them "wildlife markets" and hope it catches on :P).
Also, calling everything a "racist dog whistle" doesn't help at all. If people are told "wet markets" are markets where wildlife is slaughtered, and they're afterwards told that wet markets have been reopened, of course they're going to freak out.
I mean there is. It's called the farmed wild-life trade, and it's a separate industry that uses wet-markets as a point of sale but it's not like all wet-markets sell it.
Who calling everything a racist dog whistle? I presented 1 perfectly valid example. I didn't say everything regarding this is racist.
Who do you think is peddling this narrative? If a program shows a normal wet-market opening and create panic as if it's tied to the wild-life trade, especially one as notorious as fucking fox news, I'm not going to hold back calling it racist.
Because it's still a fairly unhygenic place in some of the more rural areas and they're trying to trace the origin of the virus?
I mean this virus came from bats but we have had viruses from pigs (H1N1), cattle etc. It could have easily transferred from bat to cat to human without the wet markets. And it's not like you won't find a bunch of recipes for squirrels, possum etc in the US.
Where and how the virus entered the human population is only tangentially of interest, we will continue to see animal viruses mutate and transfer into the human population no matter what safe guards we put in place on food handling.
Where and how the virus entered the human population is only tangentially of interest, we will continue to see animal viruses mutate and transfer into the human population no matter what safe guards we put in place on food handling.
So, like, the richest nations in the world have spent generations skeletonizing the idea that public health is a human right and instead have build profit-driven systems that collapse under even the slightest strain.
But we still talking about dirty floors in remote rural markets like they're to answer to all of this.
Do I have that right? It's someone else's fault things got this bad?
But we still talking about dirty floors in remote rural markets like they're to answer to all of this.
Do I have that right? It's someone else's fault things got this bad?
If we're talking about prevention then a balanced viewpoint would consider that it's probably part of the answer.
I mean we specifically need a term for the markets that sell it. And there is, see below.
Agreed, but that's a 1% overspecification of what you originally called a racist dog whistle, namely (and I quote): "people acting like all wet markets are the same and freaking out over your everyday wet market opening in China as if they all sell exotic animals". Unless you are pressuming knowledge that this isn't true on the part of the one freaking out, this isn't racist, just a normal reaction when you're misinformed.
I'm assuming it's more that they banned them alongside other places where people gather in large numbers. It's unfortunate because that seemed to support the narrative that wet markets are the problem in general.
I think we agree the issue here is the original narrative that "wet markets" mean "markets where wildlife is slaughtered". I had never heard the term myself (because, again, the Spanish word is just "market"), so I bought it wholesale; it would be hypocritical for me to criticise others for doing the same, let alone call them racist. That genie is out of the lamp now, unfortunately; a lot more people who had never heard of the word are probably going to associate the two from now on. I still think the easiest way to correct course is to promote the use of another term for the specific markets that slaughter wildlife. The article for "wet market" in Wikipedia specifically distinguishes between them and what it indeed calls "wildlife markets", so I'm now left wondering why "wet market" was used at all. "Wildlife market" is both more self-evident in meaning and more correct.
It might sound silly, but a start may be to simply create a wikipedia page for "wildlife market", though probably that'd be best done by someone that's an English speaker and/or more knowledgeable about it than myself (a low bar to clear considering I just learnt the difference one hour ago).
But if we think about balance, which countries have the resources within their grasp today to start fixing this, and how are their media institutions holding them to account for that. Are we even considering that the fulcrum of this metaphorical 'balance' lives more favorably to the United States and Western Europe by MILES than to the remote chinese provinces with unhygenic market conditions that are today's boogeyman?
This 'wet market' narrative echoes the 'bath house' narrative of the aids epidemic and it super grosses me out to see it carried forward by even a single Era poster.
There really isn't a "market" that sells wild life for food exclusively.
They just set up in some wet markets. You don't rebrand or come up with new terminology just cause some specific market's have specific shops.
Yeah. A butcher that might sell roadkill is still usually called a butcher. The onus is not on the Chinese population having a separate word/phrase for this. The problem is with the media who seem to ignore nuance, either due to incompetence or for a malicious reason.
That really is the problem. Even if there was new or a correct term, western media are not interested in nuance or even being accurate. It just furthers reinforce stereotypes and racism.
But people stay getting hung up on terminology.
Precisely. Think back to the whole "horse meat found in meat products" fiasco in Europe a few years ago. It would be like Asia coming up with articles and reports saying that super markets are unreliable and need to be shut down, and that maybe westerners need a new name to differentiate those that did or did not sell those questionable products.
This is all true, and we even have a term for it.
It's called racism.
Yeah, I get the idea that some people think that there are vast differences between regular wet markets and the ones that sell warm meat. There really isn't though. The latter will have a couple of stalls that have live animals in them and the former doesn't.
I think that the problem here is that Western media other than Fox News always tries to be objective and should always be given the benefit of the doubt. The problem is that while some are better than others, they're all driven by similar impulses and they will often go for the sexiest angle when possible because that's what drives the views. And if a more nuanced picture is sacrificed for this? That's usually okay if they're not likely to get caught.
I didnt say its impossible. It is far harder to get than 7-8 years ago though.
All the side streets in Sanlitun or even the side streets in Nanluoguxiang, that were known for the real street food stalls are gone (Beijing).
The street food stalls were chased away from Vanke in Changping around 3 years ago.
I was born in China, and for whatever reason, even as a little kid (I'm talking kindergarten-ish age), I was never fond of these wet markets. I always found them gross. I think it speaks more about how fussy I am as a person than anything. When I went back to China to work 2 years ago, I always preferred to shop at super markets than the wet markets.
This thread is confusing.
Keeping live animals close together, especially if mixed species, is bad from a disease perspective. That happens at so called wet markets but it is not representative of all wet markets in China. SARS-CoV-2 originated from a wet market in Wuhan or maybe another point of origin in the Hubei region. There are western media that confuses by not being nuanced about what a wet market is. They are maybe doing this because of racism and it contributes to prejudice against China.
Is any of this controversial?
Keeping live animals close together, especially if mixed species, is bad from a disease perspective. That happens at so called wet markets but it is not representative of all wet markets in China. SARS-CoV-2 originated from a wet market in Wuhan or maybe another point of origin in the Hubei region. There are western media that confuses by not being nuanced about what a wet market is. They are maybe doing this because of racism and it contributes to prejudice against China.
Is any of this controversial?
This seems.. extremely beside the point.
"I think there should be better regulation of weapons in this country!"
"But most weapons are used for entirely peaceful purposes! There's knives used in cooking, and lots of blunt-force objects have other uses, and most of them will never be used to harm another person."
"Okay, so let's ban guns, then?"
"But your conflation of 'weapons' with 'guns' smears the good name of lamps and butcher knives everywhere!"
"I think there should be better regulation of weapons in this country!"
"But most weapons are used for entirely peaceful purposes! There's knives used in cooking, and lots of blunt-force objects have other uses, and most of them will never be used to harm another person."
"Okay, so let's ban guns, then?"
"But your conflation of 'weapons' with 'guns' smears the good name of lamps and butcher knives everywhere!"
regulations that promote hygiene. that's all. the problem is these producers that sell at these open air 'wet' markets are all small scale family operations. the regional and smaller governments aren't going to put these subsistence farmers out of work so they turn a blind eye. now if some of that infrastructure money (that's used to build empty cities and so on) could be used to clean these places up or subsidize hygiene regulations that's another thing. (not that i'm an expert or something just observations from afar).
I went to a wet market as a child when I lived in Karachi.
Went to buy chicken and was more than a little surprised when
Went to buy chicken and was more than a little surprised when
they chopped the head of a live chicken, put it into a barrel where it ran headless until it died, plucked it and gave it to us in a bag
When guns are categorized as kitchen utensils and they start selling guns in the same section as kitchen knives and utensils, than you might have a point.
A lack of consistency in upholding standards seems to be a fundamental issue in China. It affects different industries from construction, to environmental, to food safety.
While some of these markets are good when it comes to hygiene and sanitation there are others that aren't. Covid-19 still emerged from one because of it and that's all it takes.
While some of these markets are good when it comes to hygiene and sanitation there are others that aren't. Covid-19 still emerged from one because of it and that's all it takes.
No. We actually have no idea where the first animal to human transmission of Covid-19 happened. The original story that it started in a Wuhan wet market is wrong.
Oh okay. Except the original point I'm making about inconsistent standards across multiple industries in China is absolutely true, so it's entirely possible that such a contagious disease could have emerged from such a market.
Posting videos about good examples doesn't really stop the bad ones from existing.
This video seemed pretty good at giving the context from which the demand for the types of markets that are an issue (and the legality of them) rose:
They seem to use the term "wet market" but give the background to why they (meaning those that are an issue) exist.
They seem to use the term "wet market" but give the background to why they (meaning those that are an issue) exist.
A lot of shit happened to China last century lol. It wasn't even that long ago where China had to suffer through the effects of the Cultural revolution and the Great Leap forward. Of course things are going vary region to region. It's only very recently that Deng Xiaoping lifted literally hundreds millions from poverty to an actual middle class.
I've not seen anything definite saying it wasn't the wet market - what has changed? any reputable sources?
I understand that and I don't fear or hate China for it but when the consequences of it reach out into the world then it becomes a significant problem.
I remember watching a documentary about the inhabitants of a Chinese city complaining about the terrible amounts of pollution coming out of a nearby coal power plant, only for the documentary to reveal that such coal power plants can be built and approval sought **after** they're operational. The casual nature of how standards are enforced is ridiculous over there.
There are other examples I could give in the fields of construction and technology (specifically the lax approach to patent enforcement BETWEEN Chinese companies, rather than between Western and Chinese companies). But generally speaking it's the general laissez faire approach to these things that puzzles me about China.
And to repeat what I said above: When that begins to cause "issues" globally then that is a real problem.
I mean that's the beautiful irony of it all really. China became infected with capitalism lol. I mean it's not like the inhabitants of that city wanted a coal plant.
Like I'm not actually from China, so this is from an outsider's perspective really, but to me a lot of it seems like hyper-capitalism borne from the living memory of Mao's reign and the desire to escape from that.
Think the world has to have an honest look at what we are all doing in every country and try and improve. In the West intensive farming is helping create superbugs resistant to antibiotics as well.
If we could take a fraction of the trillions that are going to be spent fighting Coronavirus and put it into meat alternative and lab grown meat research we may be in the position to make some big changes over the next decade whilst making sure people can still eat.
If we could take a fraction of the trillions that are going to be spent fighting Coronavirus and put it into meat alternative and lab grown meat research we may be in the position to make some big changes over the next decade whilst making sure people can still eat.
"t was a bioweapon manufactured by the Chinese. The US Army brought the virus to Wuhan. It leaked -- like a genie out of a bottle -- from a lab in an accident. It took root at a wildlife market in Wuhan.
Scientists have banded together across international borders to condemn the nationalist-tinged conspiracy theories. And yet, they are divided on what was once widely thought the most likely culprit: a so-called wet market in Wuhan, where wild animals are kept in cages and sold as pets or food. It is believed that a bat-infected animal -- perhaps a pangolin -- infected the first human.
"
"The experts are at odds over the once widely accepted theory that the virus originated at a wet market.
Proponents believe the gory nature of these crowded markets packed with people and wild animals slated for slaughter make them the most likely culprit; the doubters cite a peer-reviewed study indicating that many of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the so-called wet market."
How did coronavirus break out? Theories abound as researchers race to solve genetic detective story | CNN
A vacuum of knowledge about the origins of the new coronavirus ravaging the world has provided fertile ground for all manner of theories -- from the fantastic, to the dubious to the believable.
www.cnn.com
That seems insane, if true. Reads like a conspiracy theory to me."t was a bioweapon manufactured by the Chinese. The US Army brought the virus to Wuhan. It leaked -- like a genie out of a bottle -- from a lab in an accident. It took root at a wildlife market in Wuhan.
Scientists have banded together across international borders to condemn the nationalist-tinged conspiracy theories. And yet, they are divided on what was once widely thought the most likely culprit: a so-called wet market in Wuhan, where wild animals are kept in cages and sold as pets or food. It is believed that a bat-infected animal -- perhaps a pangolin -- infected the first human.
"
"The experts are at odds over the once widely accepted theory that the virus originated at a wet market.
Proponents believe the gory nature of these crowded markets packed with people and wild animals slated for slaughter make them the most likely culprit; the doubters cite a peer-reviewed study indicating that many of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the so-called wet market."
How did coronavirus break out? Theories abound as researchers race to solve genetic detective story | CNN
A vacuum of knowledge about the origins of the new coronavirus ravaging the world has provided fertile ground for all manner of theories -- from the fantastic, to the dubious to the believable.
Anyone involved in this should be destroyed including anyone that ordered the creation of a bioweapon then. No mercy.
There needs to be some sort of punishment when the origins are deduced. That much is certain.
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Will leave this article here, maybe somebody is interested:
www.nature.com
The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 - Nature Medicine
www.nature.com
Read it carefully. It's talking about how talks of it being a bioweapon are nationalist conspiracy theories.