A real, not-clickbaity, average Chinese wet market

[Chikor]

I live in Asia and it's not racist to say that there are definitely meat processing techniques here that would not fly in the west.

A lot of markets you go to cut up chicken etc and just leave it out with no refrigeration and with flies all over. I'm really surprised more people don't get ill.

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Food safety in poorer countries is generally not as good as it is in the developed world, but this has nothing to do with this virus.
It didn't came from spoiled meat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the issue is "Wet Markets" in general, but specifically the wild life cesspool ones. Or is the OP and his white savior Youtuber insinuating stuff like the famous Vox video is Hollywood set and fabrication?

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I think a lot of people believe that if you go to market in Beijing you'll see bats in cages or whatever. That's not true, most markets in China don't have live animals, it's generally illegal, and it's not this important cultural thing, it's mostly a function of the fact that China was a really poor country until very recently, and it's still pretty poor.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Seems that there are layers to "wet market" I always thought they meant the crazy ones with all the cross contamination.

Not just a holding area for animals.



This is what I imagined are the "wet markets"

But either way, are these creating the T-Virus? Probably not. But its likely healthier... to not have these food processing issues.

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They have to process meat this way because a lot of these areas are too poor to have your western packaged meat processing system.

It is as much economics as it is cultural.

 

[Deleted member 37151]

I'm pretty sure this isn't the "racist" part of the wet market narrative.

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It really sucks. Because you have an increasing acceptance of animal rights here (slowly but surely) and a desire to make things safer for everyone (a lot of the food sanitation stuff it is lack of education and a reluctance to change) and then you have racist twats feigning outrage to denigrate Asian people and it fucks up the actual good work being done.

 

[RestEerie]

The way the media describes the Chinese wet markets made me think it was like a livestock market or something. This is just a regular market that you'll find in many countries. A good place to haggle on the price of strawberries.

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media using hyperbolic terminology to rifle the feathers of the unassuming audience so that they can get more viewership... I AM SHOOK.

 

[SRG01]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the issue is "Wet Markets" in general, but specifically the exotic and wild life cesspool ones. Or is the OP and his white savior Youtuber insinuating stuff like the famous Vox video is a Hollywood set and fabrication? Only takes 1 to start a pandemic, regardless of the other 95% which may well be "good actors".

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The problem is that the general Western populace is incapable of nuance when it comes to anything not-Western.

It's why 'Oriental' is such a racist term.

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

I'm sure there are some pretty nasty wet markets over there, but it's refreshing to see someone debunking the racist narrative that certain people have been pushing about all of them being filthy places that sell you infected vermin.

 

[Deleted member 37151]

Food safety in poorer countries is generally not as good as it is in the developed world, but this has nothing to do with this virus.
It didn't came from spoiled meat.

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1. I didn't imply the virus came from spoiled meat.
2.I don't think it's about poverty at all. I live in Bangkok. It's not any 'poorer' that most of America.
3. Developed and developing countries don't exist. We shouldn't be using these outdated and quite frankly, tinged with racism, phrases. please educate yourself on using these words.

 

[JLP101]

I'm sure there are some pretty nasty wet markets over there, but it's refreshing to see someone debunking the racist narrative that certain people have been pushing.

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Im sure if you spend enough time in any one country you would see both the good and the bad they have to offer.

 

[Commedieu]

They have to process meat this way because a lot of these areas are too poor to have your western packaged meat processing system.

It is as much economics as it is cultural.

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Does the final product end up in restaurants outside of the poor area, for instance, would a restaurant go to find 'fresh' culturally significant ingredients at these?

I'm just curious.

And *isolated*

 

[Rizific]

Dude, the one in that video is fucking electronics manufacturing factory levels of clean compared to the ones I've been to in the Philippines.

 

[SRG01]

Does the final product end up in restaurants outside of the poor area, for instance, would a restaurant go to find 'fresh' culturally significant ingredients at these?

I'm just curious.

And *isolated*

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Typically not. Wet markets typically serve the local populace, for immediate access to food. Think of it as a supermarket or open-air market of sorts.

Restaurants would typically source from other places -- and it's not uncommon for them (or buyers) to go directly to ports and such and buy directly from shippers and such.

 

[Nocturne]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the issue is "Wet Markets" in general, but specifically the exotic and wild life cesspool ones. Or is the OP and his white savior Youtuber insinuating stuff like the famous Vox video is a Hollywood set and fabrication? Only takes 1 to start a pandemic, regardless of the other 95% which may well be "good actors". Every single one of them needs to be very, very, very tightly regulated if they're allowed to operate.

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i think the problem is more people 'insinuating' wet markets are the same thing as those wildlife markets. that's literally the point. people using a term they've only heard about like two weeks ago and characterizing the entirety of the asian street market scene the same as exotic wildlife markets selling roadkill and bats. no one's saying places like that don't exist but the reason we're talking about wet markets at all is because of facebook shock videos titled 'HORRIFYING!! EATING LIVE ANIMALS ON THE STREETS OF WUHAN WET MARKET' and using that to further a racist agenda about how and what asian people actually prepare and eat food

 

[Speevy]

I think it's entirely possible to both understand that your average market in China is like the one in the first post, and also to know that some less clean places exist that maybe you wouldn't want to visit. This is why countries set up agencies to provide oversight for things like food safety.

 

[Couchpotato]

I live about 15 minutes from Shanghai's largest wet market, and use to frequent it. This video looks more like the average supermarket you find here, but not the wet markets. These type of markets are generally much cleaner and more organized than the wet market in Shanghai and elsewhere that I have been to.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Does the final product end up in restaurants outside of the poor area, for instance, would a restaurant go to find 'fresh' culturally significant ingredients at these?

I'm just curious.

And *isolated*

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Depends on the scale. I'm sure most big restaurants purchase straight from the dealer just based on scale like any restaurant worldwide. Seafood is probably one of the things that differ from most Asian restaurants comapared to western ones. Like you see the seafood live in tanks in restaurants in a lot of asian restaurants, even in the west.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

I would consider fish markets a type of wet market since it's usually fresh fish being sold.

 

[Armadilo]

There's different types of markets, some that are cleaner and not as bad as videos have shown, but those still exist and don't really have regulation, right ?

So both are real

 

[wandering]

1. I didn't imply the virus came from spoiled meat.
2.I don't think it's about poverty at all. I live in Bangkok. It's not any 'poorer' that most of America.
3. Developed and developing countries don't exist. We shouldn't be using these outdated and quite frankly, tinged with racism, phrases. please educate yourself on using these words.

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There's absolutely a conversation to be had about the Euro/Anglocentric nature of geopolitical dialogue and the racist legacy of comparisons of economic power, but a lot of Asia is, as it stands, poorer than Europe or America. There are controversies about the term "developing countries," yes, but a lot of Asian countries, including China, are in a growth phase regarding infrastructure, lifestyle standards, and purchasing power. A conversation about that doesn't have to be necessarily laced with stigma. This isn't a condemnation of Asia, it's a condemnation of the Western hegemonic and colonial legacy as well as the failures of neoliberalism.

 

[4Tran]

i think the problem is more people 'insinuating' wet markets are the same thing as those wildlife markets. that's literally the point. people using a term they've only heard about like two weeks ago and characterizing the entirety of the asian street market scene the same as exotic wildlife markets selling roadkill and bats. no one's saying places like that don't exist but the reason we're talking about wet markets at all is because of facebook shock videos titled 'HORRIFYING!! EATING LIVE ANIMALS ON THE STREETS OF WUHAN WET MARKET' and using that to further a racist agenda about how and what asian people actually prepare and eat food

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It's probably also useful to note that the Wuhan wet market is probably not where Covid-19 jumped from animal to human in the first place. There are all sorts of ways that this could have happened and the only reason we associate wet markets as the source is because that's where the first big outbreak was back in December. However, the first known case of Covid-19 in humans was in November so it's impossible for that first outbreak to be the actual origin.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

The irony of writing "animals stacked in cages on top of each other" about Chinese wet markets and not thinking of what, just as an example, chicken farming looks like in the US seems lost on some people in here.

I always figured this wet market panic stuff was overblown. I mean yeah I'm sure some of them have very unsafe food practices, but most are probably fine. A lot of food prep processes here in the states aren't exactly...pristine, and this is in a very wealthy nation with generally effective food safety regulation. China has poor regulation overall and pockets of the country are both very rural and very poor. As others have stated, poverty and lack of food safety go hand in hand.

AFAIK we aren't even sure the virus originated in a wet market, just that it spread in one (no shit, now that the virus is here in the US its gonna spread at your local Kroger too).

 

[SilentPanda]

Does the final product end up in restaurants outside of the poor area, for instance, would a restaurant go to find 'fresh' culturally significant ingredients at these?

I'm just curious.

And *isolated*

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Here in Taiwan
depend on the restaurant, most family owned go to this kind of market in the morning to buy stuff, there are also vegetable and seafood market.

larger or more expensive restaurant might order from specific dealer that get them their stuff.

 

[Chikor]

1. I didn't imply the virus came from spoiled meat.
2.I don't think it's about poverty at all. I live in Bangkok. It's not any 'poorer' that most of America.
3. Developed and developing countries don't exist. We shouldn't be using these outdated and quite frankly, tinged with racism, phrases. please educate yourself on using these words.

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In China it mostly is. You generally don't see live animals in nice markets, it's mostly in poorer parts of the town or the country. Like if you go to a wet market in Beijing or Shanghai, you're not going to see live bats or whatever.
The practice of bringing live animals to the markets comes mostly from a time where refrigeration was an issue. Best way to keep meat from spoiling is to keep the animal alive. I don't know, maybe there is something specific in Thailand, I will certainly not going to lecture you about your own country, but that practice was common in every country in the world, and generally, as countries get richer and develop their infrastructure further, you see that practice in decline. It usually lag actual development because people's habits take a while to change.
Also enforcement of laws an regulation tend to be way weaker in poorer parts of China, and those practices are to a large degree illegal.

p.s.
By every objective measure a country like Thailand is significantly poorer than countries like the US. I don't think it's racist to say that, it's a function of exploitation by richer countries after all. What term would like me to use? The global south is a bit too broad I think.

 

[Deleted member 37151]

There's absolutely a conversation to be had about the Euro/Anglocentric nature of geopolitical dialogue and the racist legacy of comparisons of economic power, but a lot of Asia is, as it stands, poorer than Europe or America. There are controversies about the term "developing countries," yes, but a lot of Asian countries, including China, are in a growth phase regarding infrastructure, lifestyle standards, and purchasing power. A conversation about that doesn't have to be necessarily laced with stigma. This isn't a condemnation of Asia, it's a condemnation of the Western hegemonic and colonial legacy as well as the failures of neoliberalism.

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Factfulness changed my opinion completely on this. 'Developing' and 'developed' countries are just no longer useful terms to use anymore and using them hurts understanding of how the world is. Is Ukraine a developing country? It has about the same health and wealth as Thailand. Where is the split? Where is the gap? There isn't one. Countries are on a continuum and there is no gap to separate 'developed' from 'developing' anymore.
In most places, the disparity inside a country is far greater than between counties.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

There's absolutely a conversation to be had about the Euro/Anglocentric nature of geopolitical dialogue and the racist legacy of comparisons of economic power, but a lot of Asia is, as it stands, poorer than Europe or America. There are controversies about the term "developing countries," yes, but a lot of Asian countries, including China, are in a growth phase regarding infrastructure, lifestyle standards, and purchasing power. A conversation about that doesn't have to be necessarily laced with stigma. This isn't a condemnation of Asia, it's a condemnation of the Western hegemonic and colonial legacy as well as the failures of neoliberalism.

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Yeah I'm not sure what the issue with saying developed/developing countries is exactly, especially since Asia is a really vast and broad region with a wide variety of cultures and countries in various stages of development. Japan and South Korea are very clearly wealthy, developed nations, in many ways superior to the US and parts of Europe in terms of quality of life. Honestly so is a lot of China, and hell the parts of China that are more rural and poor could be compared similarly to the many areas of the US that are rural, poor, and have conditions similar to developing countries. Then you've got smaller nations that are also very clearly developed and wealthy like Singapore and Taiwan. But Vietnam, Thailand, the Phillipines, etc. may be geographically close to these developed nations but way more poor with much lower standards of living.

The poverty of these nations is mainly because of exploitation from Europe, The US, and developed East Asian nations like Japan. I don't see how pointing out that western colonialism and exploitation of labor and resources by western powers has fucked over these countries is racist...

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Factfulness changed my opinion completely on this. 'Developing' and 'developed' countries are just no longer useful terms to use anymore and using them hurts understanding of how the world is. Is Ukraine a developing country? It has about the same health and wealth as Thailand. Where is the split? Where is the gap? There isn't one. Countries are on a continuum and there is no gap to separate 'developed' from 'developing' anymore.
In most places, the disparity inside a country is far greater than between counties.

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Well yeah man I don't think anyone is gonna try and tell you that Ukraine is, like, a wealthy developed nation. Cause it's not. Developing/developed is not an east/west thing, there are plenty of developed Eastern countries and developing Western ones.

 

[wandering]

Factfulness changed my opinion completely on this. 'Developing' and 'developed' countries are just no longer useful terms to use anymore and using them hurts understanding of how the world is. Is Ukraine a developing country? It has about the same health and wealth as Thailand. Where is the split? Where is the gap? There isn't one. Countries are on a continuum and there is no gap to separate 'developed' from 'developing' anymore.
In most places, the disparity inside a country is far greater than between counties.

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Of course it's a continuum, but making distinctions is the nature of having geopolitical dialogue so it's an unfortunate necessity. Regarding Ukraine, most would consider it a developing country, alongside most of Eastern/Southeastern Europe. I should have specified Western Europe, not Europe more generally, sorry.

 

[Chikor]

Factfulness changed my opinion completely on this. 'Developing' and 'developed' countries are just no longer useful terms to use anymore and using them hurts understanding of how the world is. Is Ukraine a developing country? It has about the same health and wealth as Thailand. Where is the split? Where is the gap? There isn't one. Countries are on a continuum and there is no gap to separate 'developed' from 'developing' anymore.
In most places, the disparity inside a country is far greater than between counties.

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I generally agree that the whole development discourse can be quite problematic. But what other terms do we have?
At least people generally understand these terms.

And Ukraine is considered a developing country, we moved away from 3rd world terminology exactly because it didn't include countries like Ukraine.

 

[blue_whale]

It's actually more abnormal imo to kill an animal weeks ahead in a meat processing plant and then refrigerate it and pack it in plastic but what do I know? Just have some perspective on this guys. In what way is refrigeration and meat packing plants more normal?

 

[Chronos]

The irony of writing "animals stacked in cages on top of each other" about Chinese wet markets and not thinking of what, just as an example, chicken farming looks like in the US seems lost on some people in here.

I always figured this wet market panic stuff was overblown. I mean yeah I'm sure some of them have very unsafe food practices, but most are probably fine. A lot of food prep processes here in the states aren't exactly...pristine, and this is in a very wealthy nation with generally effective food safety regulation. China has poor regulation overall and pockets of the country are both very rural and very poor. As others have stated, poverty and lack of food safety go hand in hand.

AFAIK we aren't even sure the virus originated in a wet market, just that it spread in one (no shit, now that the virus is here in the US its gonna spread at your local Kroger too).

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I think you are missing some context. It's a bigger problem when different species of animals are packed closely or on top of each other which give rise to zoological viral transmission. When it is the same species like Chickens in western farming, We still have problems that occasionally result in animal pandemics like avian or swine flu, but those conditions are usually effecting the animal and not cross species mutations. Wet markets are a breeding ground where cross species mutation is significantly more likely to occur.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I think you are missing some context. It's a bigger problem when different species of animals are packed closely or on top of each other which give rise to zoological viral transmission. When it is the same species like Chickens in western farming, We still have problems that occasionally result in animal pandemics like avian or swine flu, but those conditions are usually effecting the animal and not cross species mutations. Wet markets are a breeding ground where cross species mutation is significantly more likely to occur.

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No I understand that, I just think people generally don't know what western food production looks like and then they see stuff like this out in the open in Asia they react poorly

 

[Antiwhippy]

It's actually more abnormal imo to kill an animal weeks ahead in a meat processing plant and then refrigerate it and pack it in plastic but what do I know? Just have some perspective on this guys. In what way is refrigeration and meat packing plants more normal?

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TBF meat does actually have to be aged for protiens to break down from rigor mortis if you want high quality meat. Fresh kills aren't actually considered high quality lol.

It's why dry-aging and wet-aging are a thing.

 

[blue_whale]

TBF meat does actually have to be aged for protiens to break down from rigor mortis if you want high quality meat. Fresh kills aren't actually considered high quality lol.

It's why dry-aging and wet-aging are a thing.

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Yeah true dat although super fresh beef has a special quality to it. Anyway what I'm trying to say is, the wet market is the normal more subsistence friendly way to sell meat and produce.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Yeah true dat although super fresh beef has a special quality to it. Anyway what I'm trying to say is, the wet market is the normal more subsistence friendly way to sell meat and produce.

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You seems really hung up on the term 'normal' in this discussion. I mean part of the reason westerners were freaking out about wet markets is because that method of food delivery is very abnormal for western societies.

What is or isn't 'normal' is culturally relative; what matters is what is or is not safe preparation of food. I'm willing to bet the majority of wet markets are safe, even though they would probably seem abnormal to your average American.

 

[AdrianG4]

SerpentZA is the very definition of white mediocrity. Just another schmuck in a long line of other schmucks who moved to a foreign country (typically somewhere in Asia) and leveraged every last drop of their whiteness to their advantage.

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Oh man this is a perfect description of him haha

 

[Lishi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the issue is "Wet Markets" in general, but specifically the exotic and wild life cesspool ones. Or is the OP and his white savior Youtuber insinuating stuff like the famous Vox video is a Hollywood set and fabrication? Only takes 1 to start a pandemic, regardless of the other 95% which may well be "good actors". Every single one of them needs to be very, very, very tightly regulated if they're allowed to operate.

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One of the issue is with the wild animal trade and animal living condition.
But among the way due bad coverage, not being world aware etc for someone it became wet market itself, even if probably they don't really know what the name imply.

Cannot see the video yet, but i guess that was why he made it.

 

[Deleted member 37151]

I generally agree that the whole development discourse can be quite problematic. But what other terms do we have?
At least people generally understand these terms.

And Ukraine is considered a developing country, we moved away from 3rd world terminology exactly because it didn't include countries like Ukraine.

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But then what about Slovenia? Av life expectancy is 81 average wage is $34k.
I'm sure we'd all call Spain a developed country. Av life expectancy 83 average wage 36k. Is Bahrain a 'developed' country? It has a the same av wage as the IK, but slightly lower life expectancy. These labels make no sense. Chile has a higher life expectancy than the US. Is it developed?

 

[Ultima_5]

There's different types of markets, some that are cleaner and not as bad as videos have shown, but those still exist and don't really have regulation, right ?

So both are real

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This. I️ feel a bit of responses here are a bit of an over correction. Glad this one video seems fine but there are plenty of worse ones that you can see online. There should be more over sight of this is really the source of the virus not to mention the animal cruelty

 

[TheMango55]

Seems like there should really be two different terms.

The one in the video is basically a large farmers market, but I assume you go to something that looks different when you want to buy your black market pangolins and bat meat.

 

[UnderNewOwnership]

Seems like there should really be two different terms.

The one in the video is basically a large farmers market, but I assume you go to something that looks different when you want to buy your black market pangolins and bat meat.

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Well, the one with black-market animals is still a wet-market, except it was able to bribe the local inspectors.

 

[Deleted member 41502]

By every objective measure a country like Thailand is significantly poorer than countries like the US. I don't think it's racist to say that, it's a function of exploitation by richer countries after all. What term would like me to use? The global south is a bit too broad I think.

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I don't even know what he's arguing there. I live in Bangkok and it's very objectively poorer than similar cities in America. Theres lots of wet markets here. they're part of the culture and a reflection of the economy.

Trying to say "no one in the world can eat any unsanitary foods to ensure another pandemic never happens" is just kinda silly to me. Even in a utiopia where everyone has a home, fridge, and toilet, it's going to happen. Western nations that have that are full of people eating unsanitary weird shit. I have a friend in Iowa who was livid last year that they couldn't sell raw milk to the local grocery store.

 

[Sanka]

Wait what did people think wet markets looked like?

 

[ɣGammaɣ]

I don't get it, discussing the name of markets and how they look? Just leave wild animals alone, especially ones with a high immune system. Isn't it enough that a lot of species are going extinct because of witchcraft believes?

 

[Antiwhippy]

I don't get it, discussing the name of markets and how they look? Just leave wild animals alone, especially ones with a high immune system. Isn't it enough that a lot of species are going extinct because of witchcraft believes?

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Yeah you really didn't get it.

 

[AGoodODST]

There is definitely a racist narrative that needs to be avoided when discussing this.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the fact that the less savory wet markets do exist and have been responsible for outbreaks of viruses now and in the past and what can be done to avoid it in the future.

 

[Spine Crawler]

Pretty ridiculous how everyone suddenly became an expert and started calling for all wet markets to be banned.

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how can you ban wetmarkets in china though. as long as xi is in power he will do as he pleases.

 

[Brinbe]

There is definitely a racist narrative that needs to be avoided when discussing this.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the fact that the less savory wet markets do exist and have been responsible for outbreaks of viruses now and in the past and what can be done to avoid it in the future.

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yep, 100%

 

[Box]

Thanks OP. Sent this to a friend I had a heated discussion with the other day.

 

[Antiwhippy]

how can you ban wetmarkets in china though. as long as xi is in power he will do as he pleases.

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Or unless you can suddenly upscale every wet market into a modern supermarket with supermarket style supply chains you're cutting out the source for food for a lot of low income areas?

 

[entrydenied]

how can you ban wetmarkets in china though. as long as xi is in power he will do as he pleases.

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Whether wet markets exist or not have nothing to do with whether XI is in power or not.

People in this thread need to stop telling Asians that wet markets are bad when they don't have a clue what wet markets even are.

 

[Spine Crawler]

Whether wet markets exist or not have nothing to do with whether XI is in power or not.

People in this thread need to stop telling Asians that wet markets are bad when they don't have a clue what wet markets even are.

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well its a type of market in the country he rules over. im just saying xi and china are not going to be pushed around that easily

Food safety in poorer countries is generally not as good as it is in the developed world, but this has nothing to do with this virus.
It didn't came from spoiled meat.


I think a lot of people believe that if you go to market in Beijing you'll see bats in cages or whatever. That's not true, most markets in China don't have live animals, it's generally illegal, and it's not this important cultural thing, it's mostly a function of the fact that China was a really poor country until very recently, and it's still pretty poor.

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do we even have scientific proof that the wetmarkets are the reason? just out of curiosity. last time i checked it still wasnt clear.

Or unless you can suddenly upscale every wet market into a modern supermarket with supermarket style supply chains you're cutting out the source for food for a lot of low income areas?

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indeed