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Oct 25, 2017
8,447
the dog was the right decision

fable 3 and the rest that happened to Fable was a tragedy, though. So many awful decisions. Hopefully the rumoured reboot can bring the franchise back to it's feet.
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,718
I always wanted a fable game with virtually no main quest. You take your character since childhood, doing "side-quests" and you can be both hero and villain. Maybe a mad king or a legendary hero. And the game ends when you die from age.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
There's definitely a lot that could've been better with Fable 1 - 3 but I still enjoy that trilogy immensely. I really enjoyed that they sort of did their own thing rather than just copy what everyone else was doing (Even if there were some influences to try and get higher sales). One of my biggest worries with the new Fable is Playground just making it Witcher 3 but with some humor and a character maker.
This is why I think there's a chance "Fable 4" becomes a new IP, so people will be able to judge it as it's own thing rather than be held back by certain expectations fans have for the Fable brand.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
what's wrong with the dog? Fable 2 is frequently cited as the best in the series and the dog is frequently cited as one of the highlighted.

Doggo is always best buddy, OP!
 

Bitanator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,050
inUaCYxosSZvg.gif
 

Smash-It Stan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,275
The dog was the right call, in that situation. Everything else about 2 and 3, and the rest of the series, were NOT the right calls. Fable 1 had 100 promises to it and only delivered like 20 of them, but damn was that such a good solid RPG. 2 and 3 aren't even videogames by comparison.
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,114
It's crazy to me that it took four people four years to make the dog in 2. I liked the dog just fine, it was definitely memorable, but what all did it really do? It took that much time to create an AI character that follows you around and periodically find you buried treasure? I am forgetting anything more complex that the dog did? I know you could give it commands but that doesn't seem different enough from the interactions with townspeople to warrant that much time.

I do vaguely remember the pathfinding for the fetch command being impressive for the time. It would have been wrong to remove the dog entirely, but if a lot of that time was spent on a few specific things like that I definitely see how the game would have benefitted from some focus on other aspects.
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,114
Plot twist: Fable was never good, with dogs or spires or 100 heroes on screen.
:(

I love the Fable series (what I've played of it anyway, I skipped 3 after reading reviews).

I can absolutely understand how anyone would be disappointed if you're constantly comparing them to what was promised, but if you just enjoy them on their own terms they're great. The first especially have a really unique tone, I can't think of any other games that have that light-hearted, adventurous fairy tale atmosphere to them. The combat is really shallow and completely broken in both games (IIRC there was a shield spell that negated most of the challenge in the first game, and guns were ridiculously overpowered in 2, you could unlock a perk that let you easily get headshots that dealt with most enemies very, very quickly) but they were still fun to explore.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,360
The Stussining
Not gonna lie saying fuck a big dumb battle focus on the dog. Was probably one of the best decisions Peter made for Fable 2. The bond the player has with the dog by the end of the game. Is the main reason the ending choices have any oomph.

Heck I think they even made a dlc whose selling point was that you could revive the dog.
 

CanUKlehead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,406
Fable 2 was favorite game from that year, even if I gave up on F1 quite early.

And fuck the 100-person battle. I choose dog.
 

Parcas

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,735
I've no doubt that Molyneux and his crazy over the top ideas impacted development heavily but ''It was not possible technically, but developers could have worked on it'' is borderline nonsense.

This a million time the comments feel a bit pety like oh we worked on this but I had this mega ultra idea that was going to be a billion time better. Ideas without execution are nothing so maybe that 100 heroes battle would have been shit.

Also the dog was not such a bad thing in Fable.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Peter Molyneux being responsible for development issues has to be the least surprising thing I've read this year.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
The decision to focus on the dog cost fable 2 a possible better ending:developers had imagined a giant battle with possibly 100 heroes on screen, fighting Spire Minions. It was not possible technically, but developers could have worked on it.


Lmao come on mate.

A 'big' battle that would have ended up being like a dozen people max on screen or a Doggo that was awesome and the heart and soul of much of Fable 2?

No contest.

#TeamDoggo
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,938
As a person who has never played Fable 2, my mental concept of that game is that it's an action RPG where you do a lot of things with your dog. That's its USP.

So the dog was probably the right choice.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
I'm more interested in how a dog could have been this enormous anchor on development. For starters, how could it have taken 4 people 4 years (that seems hyperbolic to the max, it's well over 30,000 man hours), but at the same time, is 4 people on a team the size/budget of Fable really that big a deal?
 

GJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,792
The Netherlands
I will never forget this Molyneux interview where he said you could plant seeds wherever you want and watch a tree grow (I think he said in real time). And then when the game game out there was like one specific location where you had to plant an acorn and after a timeskip there was a tree there. Seems like one of those features where the developers had to implement it after Peter mentioned it in an interview.
 

Moose

Prophet of Truth - Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,172
I will never forget this Molyneux interview where he said you could plant seeds wherever you want and watch a tree grow (I think he said in real time). And then when the game game out there was like one specific location where you had to plant an acorn and after a timeskip there was a tree there. Seems like one of those features where the developers had to implement it after Peter mentioned it in an interview.
You're combining two things. The acorn comment was made for project ego (Fable 1) and it wasn't in the game. Then when there was backlash they did the acorn in Fable II that grew with the Spire time skip as a nod to Peter over-promising with project ego.
 

Deleted member 1238

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,070
How lame do you have to be to think that some "epic" battle would be cooler than an awesome dog companion? Molyneux was right on that call.

Say what you want about him, but Molyneux's ideas were never the issue. He was actually a visionary. Molyneux's problem was that he rarely delivered on what he would promise.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
The dog was the right call, in that situation. Everything else about 2 and 3, and the rest of the series, were NOT the right calls. Fable 1 had 100 promises to it and only delivered like 20 of them, but damn was that such a good solid RPG. 2 and 3 aren't even videogames by comparison.
What in the world

Fable 2 was the best one
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
4 devs for the the game's most unique, marketable, and endearing feature instead of some generic set piece battle? Sounds like Molyneaux made the right call.
 

Justsomeguy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,712
UK
Yep, that's Molyneux all right. I still kind of love him as an idea man though.

Are you thinking about the one where he described how you could zoom all the way down to a single apple and watch things happen to it in Black & White, and developers were like 'wait, what?'
I know one of those devs. And they were definitely "wait, what?" after more than one press interview he did!
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,740
I will never, ever forgive Fable 2 for that extremely drawn-out Spire prison section. By the time I got out of it my character looked like a horrifying bald mutant and I never wanted to look at her again. I had to spend HOURS just shooting enemies with my crappy gun to make her not look awful.

That "your character's visual design is influenced by your stats!" system was a cute idea, but maybe don't FORCE players into a sequence where they can only rely on melee combat for like two or three straight hours if you want that system to feel rewarding.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
The dog in Fable 2 is legit one of the best dogs in a video game though. It wasn't annoying, it had personality, and it was actually helpful (finding treasures, etc). I wish other games had a dog mechanic as good as the one in that game. Yeah that "100 heroes" ending would've been cool, but for me personally, I'd rather have a cool dog that is used throughout the majority of the game rather then just a cooler ending bit that makes up a small % of your actual gameplay.

I know Peter likes to promise things and go off on wild "lets do this and this" features, and while as a developer that has to be maddening to have to constantly change things or work on something different, it's what made the Fable games stand out imo. The whole "morphing" feature of your character throughout the series via your stats, your alignment, etc, that's something that even new rpgs don't really do.

This is why I think there's a chance "Fable 4" becomes a new IP, so people will be able to judge it as it's own thing rather than be held back by certain expectations fans have for the Fable brand.

I mean I'm sure it's going to have some new things to it, but imo it'd be crazy if they go off and just ditch EVERYTHING that made Fable well Fable. Like the main things that it "needs" to have for fans of the series are:

1. Morphing mechanic for your character (and dog if you have one) which is affected by stats, alignment, etc.
2. British style humor.
3. Real time actiony combat.

Apart from that I think they'd be free to do whatever they want. Personally I'm hoping for a true open world now (that's what we thought we were getting when the game was Project Ego), and more in-depth npc interaction with dialogue choices, etc.
 

Moose

Prophet of Truth - Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,172
I will never, ever forgive Fable 2 for that extremely drawn-out Spire prison section. By the time I got out of it my character looked like a horrifying bald mutant and I never wanted to look at her again. I had to spend HOURS just shooting enemies with my crappy gun to make her not look awful.

That "your character's visual design is influenced by your stats!" system was a cute idea, but maybe don't FORCE players into a sequence where they can only rely on melee combat for like two or three straight hours if you want that system to feel rewarding.
The only thing the Spire did was age you and shave your head. The reason you were bulky is because you invested points into Physique, but that wasn't necessary because you get a gun in the spire too. You don't need to spend hours with guns to not look bulky, you simply subtract points from physique (which you can do at anytime). Putting points into accuracy would have made you taller, but you would have still been muscular if you left the points in Physique. I suppose your character could have also just been fat from eating fatty foods, but I don't think you get anything but potions in the spire.

Fable III's morphs were more subtle the hero gets quite tall but even if you use melee weapons you never really get bulky. I think that system was more dynamic while Fable II was entirely based on skill points in Physique/Accuracy.
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,604
Peter made the right call on the dog, it was one of the reasons I still remember Fable 2. Now Don Matrick and Fable 3 was a total disaster.
 

Moose

Prophet of Truth - Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,172
Fable 2 HD for PC when MS?

I keep saying they should do it as a preorder incentive for the new one.
I would want them to do a proper graphics engine remake over just a higher resolution, that and 60 FPS. Fable II hasn't aged well in some respects graphically and it could stand to look a lot better. Fable II was also on a proprietary in house engine, I wonder how difficult it would be to work with for someone not versed since Lionhead no longer exists.
 

GJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,792
The Netherlands
You're combining two things. The acorn comment was made for project ego (Fable 1) and it wasn't in the game. Then when there was backlash they did the acorn in Fable II that grew with the Spire time skip as a nod to Peter over-promising with project ego.
Ah, could be. It was a long time ago. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Deleted member 8784

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,502
I'm absolutely glad that we got the dog.
Fable did that dog more justice than it ever could have done a 100 hero Spire battle that may or may not have been feasible.

Edit: the more I'm thinking about this "epic" 100 hero battle, the crappier it looks in my brain, thank god they ignored your chum.
 
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VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,890
Columbia, SC
Shame I never played Fable 2 then. I played through the entirety of Fable 1 and its DLC and I guess it was ok but felt samey most of the way through, got Fable 3 as a pack in with the Xbox and I guess got what was halfway through the story and getting the throne back and just did not want to waste anymore time playing what felt like a soul draining experience of a game anymore.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Yeah it's known that Molyneux felt really strongly about the dog. Here's an article that mentions it among other things. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-12-lionhead-the-inside-story
"We had a meeting," McCormack recalls. "We'd not seen him in weeks because he had other things on. He opened the door, walked in and goes, the hero has a dog, and it dies. And then he left and we didn't see him again for another month. We were like, what the fuck? That was it. That was the direction."
The dog idea, some thought, came to Molyneux after his dog had died. "When something happened in his life he'd try and put it in the game somehow, because he felt something, and he goes, I want the player to feel that," McCormack says. "It was powerful."

Molyneux plays down the influence of the death of his real-life dog on the creation of Fable's in-game dog. According to the designer, his two Labradors were indeed shot by a farmer. (One survived, the other died.) But it seems he used this event as a motivational tool to help inspire the development team to push themselves to their limits.

"The whole feature of the dog was one of those times where I had to really be persuasive to convince everyone, from the most junior programmer to the most senior execs at Microsoft, that this was going to be a central feature that people would remember," he says.

"And so I'm sure I used all sorts of references about, how do you feel when a dog dies? In a movie, you can shoot 10,000 people and no-one bats an eyelid. But if you kick a dog everyone remembers it. I kept on saying, the thing that people will remember is the dog. As a designer you have to use every trick in the book to convince people that a feature they never experienced before is going to work. So I would have done anything to get my point across.
From the same article, Molyneux and the crew also felt strongly about the more progressive elements of the games, even against strong push back (or especially because of it).
For the development of Fable 2, Peter asked the team to double down on the more progressive elements of Fable 1, spurred on by some of the negative reaction from those upset with the kinds of things you could do in the game.

Lionhead received death threats because it had a gay character and two of the leading heroes were black. One message read: "I can't believe you would put a faggot in the game." A German magazine wrote a damning preview of Fable in which it accused Peter Molyneux of being "the man who thinks he's god", and called McCormack and other artists satanists. Mums from the Bible belt would write to the studio complaining that their eight-year-old had been exposed to homosexuality.

"We were like, the game's not for eight-year-olds," John McCormack says. "It's a mature-rated game. So it's not really our problem. It's yours. And, I hope you rot in hell.
"With Fable 2 we were like, right, gay marriage, lesbianism, fuck you. We revelled in it."
There was also fighting over the box art with the marketing.
McCormack was further incensed over a row over the box art for Fable 3.
"They were going, you can't have a black person on the cover, and you can't have a woman. And you want a black woman. And I was like, yes, I do, because it's about be whatever hero you want. No. It's a white guy. That's just the way it is. We know what sells and that's fucking it. Stop the arguing. I was like, fuck you! That was a huge fight.
"They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog. Work it out. I was like fuck you, man. I hated it.
"I was screaming at them in conference calls. I lost it at that point, because they just weren't getting the game. Especially because we were the first ever game that had gay marriage, we were about breaking down walls. It was meant to be funny and mature. They just took none of it and just did the usual white guy with a sword on the front. Damn it! You missed the point!"
No matter what people say, Molyneux is a game industry legend. Gaming has been influenced by his work for ever, it's better because of him.
 
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ResetGreyWolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,427
Wait, since when are people hating on the dog? It was the most realistic dog I had seen in gaming up until that point.

Fable 2 had some big issues, but imo it was none of the stuff you mentioned in the OP. Floaty gameplay and terrible combat were the big issues imo