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A guide to The Last Jedi, or why the movie is rich in storytelling and set-ups/payoffs of themes (Nerrel video) (open spoilers for everything)
- Thread starter ThisThingIsUseful
- Start date
I don't like the movie much but some of the complaints and the lengths people go to hate on everything even tangentially related to it are fucking surreal.
Someone needs to make a better loop of this. It is an AWESOME gif.
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The movie character assassinated Luke, Finn, and pointlessly killed the unlimited storyline potential of Snoke and Phasma. Rian literally could have done anything with these characters and he instead chose to kill them and make Finn a joke.
Rian would have been better off just doing his own thing and not taking on these existing characters in TLJ.
Rian would have been better off just doing his own thing and not taking on these existing characters in TLJ.
Look. You posted that long ass list a few pages before. If you didn't want to get into an engagement with someone on your opinions of the film you shouldn't have posted. This is a forum where people are free to engage with who they want in a respectful manner.
You also made the point in response to my first quote that your criticism still stands. Stands what? That it's the proper opinion? I want to know what you mean by it.
If I am having trouble understanding something I admit it freely because I don't think I'm the smartest person in the room. Ever. Why do you think I ask questions to those who are not seeing what I see? Because I wana see how they got to that conclusion.
You want to have your cake and eat it too. To Have your opinion on TLJ and not be challenged on it because you feel it threatens your intelligence and I'm not here to prove if I'm smarter than you. I'm here to discuss our varying views on what works and doesn't work in TLJ.
But I am totally ready to have better stories told. What you do think would be better for Snoke? To have more background? What would make his background compelling? What would make a better death scene? Would it be better to have him kill Ben instead or Rey? That is certainly more shocking and subversive than what Rian did.
If you want more of something at least give us a glimpse of what you think the right direction is.
No Star Wars movies have ever done that, though. Why would you expect it here? What did we know about Darth Maul? What did we know about Dooku? What did we know about Grievous? Nothing about Fett. We were fed a lie about Vader and we didn't know a thing about the Emperor. By this point in the original trilogy we'd only seen a hologram of the emperor.
Yeah. That unlimited potential of someone who betrayed the FO at the first sight of a blaster and got tossed down a garbage shute.
Also that fella in that one hologram.
Certainly.
In The Force Awakens he has a few scenes where he talks to Kylo basically setting up that he wants Kylo to become stronger and in line with the Darkside and that he wants to take over the galaxy with the New Order.
That is all we are given prior to TLJ.
I feel that Rian couldn't come up with a compelling reason (and you would be hard pressed to find a Director that could) to keep Snoke around that wasn't a retread of what we already did before and he did the best thing for the character by killing him off.
I dunno where else you go after having the setup for him in TFA that isn't a retread. Certainly they could have done that with Snoke but I don't think he would have been better for it.
EDIT: To answer more succinctly. He was setup with all three of those things by wanting to take over the galaxy. And my question is where do you go from there that makes it more compelling or interesting or different than Palpatine.
Right. It's the fault of the company that owns the rights and the director of the previous film that TLJ threw Finn into the garbage. Silly me.
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Sacrifice is a common trope in movies, epics, you name it. She did it last minute to save them. Good guys don't normally kill themselves from the get-go; they do it because there's no other choice. Hence why kamikaze pilots existed in WWII but every other country didn't copy that.
It doesn't break the lore; there's no reason why someone couldn't light speed through enemy ships. I don't think any movies set up rules, nor do the movies really make rules. The Force is just the Force and can meld to whatever the story wants. The ships can go to light speed, so it stands to reason that if push comes to shove, someone can catch the enemy unaware and kill herself to save everyone in a desperate last-ditch effort.
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This is the hyperbole that I don't get. He's not a joke, he stands up to and defeats Phasma, and he learns the same lesson Poe does. He also learns that fighting for the Resistance means more than deserting it and trying to save Ray.
Defeating a nothing character like Phasma doesn't exactly help his case. They shit on his character for a bad romance.
Agreed, and I called you out when you engaged me disrespectfully. You were not discussing my "long ass list" a few pages back, what does this have to with anything? I'd be happy if you wanted to have a legit discussion about it that doesn't involve telling me I don't understand things
I never said you you couldn't engage me on this forum. You engaged me and I am engaging you in return. You called me stupid and entitled for my opinion on Snoke, I'm responding
"still stands" does not mean it's "the proper opinion". It means "remains valid". If that's how you interpreted my comment, it's not how it was meant to be interpreted. My criticism still stands means that I agree that Rian settled on the "next best thing"; that my opinion that a good chunk of the audience were right to expect something better remains valid
haha wow, I did not say I don't want my opinion challenged, anywhere. Go ahead and challange it. Just do so legitimately. The reason I'm kicking back on the BS about TLJ critics being dumb and entitled that I saw you pushing at me is precisely because I'd rather these threads contained actual discussion instead of the bullying
Show me where you've challenged my opinion...
And for the third time now, show me why I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the film, specifically what sequence of events I got wrong.
From where I'm sitting, all you've done, is accused me of being too incompetent to form a valid opinion. This is precisely what I'm responding to
As I said, I don't have any specific head cannon I wanted for Snoke. I just wanted him to be expanded upon and woven tighter into the story before the big reversal of Kylo taking him out. I do like Kylo taking him out. I just feel it had more shock than intrigue, in a movie that's already over-stuffed with head-jerking shock moments. I also felt if he stayed around longer we'd have gotten more info on what happened to Kylo, what happened to the Republic, how Leia, Luke, Han know him (they mention him by name) etc. All of which would have filled in some of the holes for the "how did we get from ROTJ to here" crowd. No, I am not talking about a villain soliloquy or a hacky flashback. And this is not just for a Wookiepedia entry. Such further interaction with Snoke also would have built up his presence in the series, our understanding of how the other characters feel about him, and would have made further actions against him more interesting
I also hate that he was Palpatine 2.0. I would've liked anything that didn't put him in a throne room, during a duel, on a ship, trying to convert the hero, mocking, chiding, and cackling with overconfidence.
I can tell you what I didn't want, I didn't want "Lets get rid of him and tell the story of Ben." I still wanted Ben to have the focus, but I wanted Snoke to be woven into things more concretely before he got dumped.
I could make up stories about what Snoke could have done, but then people will just criticize my "head-cannon" so there's really no point. I was not paid millions to write this. I'm not expected to be able to follow it up in a more satisfying way. And I did not go into the movie with a more satisfying conclusion in mind
Suffice it to say, the Snoke complaint is not limited. It's a common point of confusion, a number of people gave it a big WTF to the point it became meme-worthy. There's a reason for that. That reason has foundations in story telling axioms such as Chekov's Gun and "Yes, and..."
It's not because a number of people are too dumb to understand why TLJ is genius
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His character wasn't "shit on." Phasma was his superior and commanded the storm troopers. It takes a big stretch to say that defeating her was meaningless as if she's a random storm trooper.
The unlimited storyline potential of the new Palpatine and the new Boba Fett.
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"You may have heard it, it's called THE CLIMAX OF THE FUCKING MOVIE!"
I'll admit that the self-deprecating humor of, "WORLD ONE I! God, you people need to learn your history," cracked me up a lot when I watched the Plinkett reviews of TPM, so seeing that used against RLM was just as hilarious to me. xD
I disagree. I have a few ideas how he could be something other than Palpatine 2.0:
1) Snoke could be a fraud like wizard like oz
2) Snoke could be darth plagueis or whatever
3) Snoke could be a 20 foot tall giant and there's an army of them about to invade
4) Snoke is a freak experiment from the empire trying to clone Sheev
5) Snoke is actually a baby and is aging backwards like Benjamin Button
6) Snoke shot Mr Burns
7) Snoke is Gollum in Space and Kylo is his precious
8) Snoke looked at the ark of the covenant and lived
9) Snoke got dunked on by Charles Barkley and the Chaos Dunk melted his face
10) Snoke was supposed to be the monster from Lost but a typo messed up JJ's plan
Snoke is easily my least favorite things from TFA, and I don't blame them for killing him off, but I'm sure a writer could think of other story beats if they had to.
I find that it becomes very difficult to think the movie is "ok" because the discussion inevitably polarizes once you start explaining things you liked and didn't like. It's one the most concrete example of a toxic discourse I can think of in pop culture.
The Last Jedi is great, Finn going through the same character arc he went through in TFA is great commentary on human nature
They have an entire platform for all that. They can have a whole series on the time between 6 and 7.
That was a fun video. I loved the Snoke backstory part the most XD XD. Not sure I agree completely with his take on balancing the Force, but he at least articulates his thoughts on it well and in depth.
Discourse around Star Wars has become obnoxiously toxic and unfun. The Last Jedi was a good movie, with some spotty execution in some of the subplots. The core story of the movie (Rey/Luke/Ben) is excellent. Hands down the best portions of the movie. The Poe subplot is also really good, and has some meaty commentary about heroes and heroism, and what that really means. Poe's John Wayne/Clint Eastwood mentality is questioned, and how that mentality can run counter to the greater good/goals of the Resistance. I liked that it took a loved character like Poe, and used his often infallible bravado to not so subtly address sexism in the workplace.
The Canto Bight subplot was the weakest of the bunch, but it didn't undermine the core theme of the movie of failure and overcoming it. If Finn and Rose had succeeded, sure, it would have felt good to the audience, and would have been incredibly boring and predictable. Not to mention that it gave us an insight into Rose as a person, and served to open Finn's eyes to the bigger picture, although it still didn't sink in for him until the climax of the film when he foolishly tries to sacrifice himself for no gain to the Resistance. As I've mentioned in numerous discussions about TLJ before, I wish they had integrated Phasma into the Canto Bight subplot, as that really could have added to the tension of that scenario, as well as give Finn and Rose more to bond over (ie, Finn confiding in Rose his fears/anger at Phasma as they duck and dodge her and her squad while trying to find and escape with the codebreaker, and his reluctance to confront her again, making his actual confrontation with her the Supremacy that much more emotionally resonant). Rewatching the film the other week, the Canto Bight sequence is actually really short. It's broken up over the film, but it makes up a really small portion of it. Like, they land, get arrested, meet DJ, escape, and then are on the Supremacy. I also wish they had kept the scene in the elevator where Finn bumps into an old Stormtrooper comrade. It was a nice moment that added a little more backstory to Finn (he was clearly underestimated by his peers, further indication that he was never cut out for that Stormtrooper life).
All in all, it's a really solid, thought out film. Johnson had a very clear idea of the story he wanted to tell, and like any filmmaker, his style, strengths and shortcomings are present as well. It's far from a perfect film, but it's good. And no, not everyone has to like it, love it, or hate it, but I've definitely grown tired of the back and forth bickering between the extreme sides of the camp. If you hate it, cool, move on and find something you enjoy. I personally don't waste time discussing the movies/games/tvshows that I don't like, and just let the people that enjoy it have their fun. If you love it, cool, have fun with whatever it is that you're enjoying, and don't waste time trying to convince the other side that they're wrong to dislike it, because it's just not gonna happen.
My personal irritation is with the internet's incessant need to perpetually remind everyone how much they loathed or hated some movie/show/game or another, in every thread about that topic. Real world things don't quite apply in my opinion, but when it comes to subjective entertainment, I'm just like, "dude, let it go." Even moreso when their contribution is just "it's dogshit/garbage/dumpsterfire." That's not critical discourse, just low level, no effort, twitter style "hot takes." It serves no purpose other than to goad the side that enjoyed it. I find the "it's amazing/fantastic/goat" level of discourse just as low level/ no effort when it comes to actually building a real discussion around the topic.
Discourse around Star Wars has become obnoxiously toxic and unfun. The Last Jedi was a good movie, with some spotty execution in some of the subplots. The core story of the movie (Rey/Luke/Ben) is excellent. Hands down the best portions of the movie. The Poe subplot is also really good, and has some meaty commentary about heroes and heroism, and what that really means. Poe's John Wayne/Clint Eastwood mentality is questioned, and how that mentality can run counter to the greater good/goals of the Resistance. I liked that it took a loved character like Poe, and used his often infallible bravado to not so subtly address sexism in the workplace.
The Canto Bight subplot was the weakest of the bunch, but it didn't undermine the core theme of the movie of failure and overcoming it. If Finn and Rose had succeeded, sure, it would have felt good to the audience, and would have been incredibly boring and predictable. Not to mention that it gave us an insight into Rose as a person, and served to open Finn's eyes to the bigger picture, although it still didn't sink in for him until the climax of the film when he foolishly tries to sacrifice himself for no gain to the Resistance. As I've mentioned in numerous discussions about TLJ before, I wish they had integrated Phasma into the Canto Bight subplot, as that really could have added to the tension of that scenario, as well as give Finn and Rose more to bond over (ie, Finn confiding in Rose his fears/anger at Phasma as they duck and dodge her and her squad while trying to find and escape with the codebreaker, and his reluctance to confront her again, making his actual confrontation with her the Supremacy that much more emotionally resonant). Rewatching the film the other week, the Canto Bight sequence is actually really short. It's broken up over the film, but it makes up a really small portion of it. Like, they land, get arrested, meet DJ, escape, and then are on the Supremacy. I also wish they had kept the scene in the elevator where Finn bumps into an old Stormtrooper comrade. It was a nice moment that added a little more backstory to Finn (he was clearly underestimated by his peers, further indication that he was never cut out for that Stormtrooper life).
All in all, it's a really solid, thought out film. Johnson had a very clear idea of the story he wanted to tell, and like any filmmaker, his style, strengths and shortcomings are present as well. It's far from a perfect film, but it's good. And no, not everyone has to like it, love it, or hate it, but I've definitely grown tired of the back and forth bickering between the extreme sides of the camp. If you hate it, cool, move on and find something you enjoy. I personally don't waste time discussing the movies/games/tvshows that I don't like, and just let the people that enjoy it have their fun. If you love it, cool, have fun with whatever it is that you're enjoying, and don't waste time trying to convince the other side that they're wrong to dislike it, because it's just not gonna happen.
My personal irritation is with the internet's incessant need to perpetually remind everyone how much they loathed or hated some movie/show/game or another, in every thread about that topic. Real world things don't quite apply in my opinion, but when it comes to subjective entertainment, I'm just like, "dude, let it go." Even moreso when their contribution is just "it's dogshit/garbage/dumpsterfire." That's not critical discourse, just low level, no effort, twitter style "hot takes." It serves no purpose other than to goad the side that enjoyed it. I find the "it's amazing/fantastic/goat" level of discourse just as low level/ no effort when it comes to actually building a real discussion around the topic.
This is not actually an argument though. The fact that it is similar to other movies doesn't excuse it in this one.
More referring to what they could have done with him during the ST, not for his backstory. But if you reread my post I am clearly being cheeky.
Yeah I don't buy the fatalistic arguments that TLJ supporters have. There was nothing interesting to do with Snoke or Phasma so it was good to kill them rather than develop them in any way? They literally could have done anything they wanted with them.
It is also used as a defence for why it wasn't possible to do a time skip in between movies.
That they could have, and in my opinion should have, done something more interesting with the character.
Where does the notion that ESB and the Emperor in RotJ were thought of as bad when they came out come from? Maybe it's because I was 3/6 when they came out, but all my life my family and everyone I knew absolutely loved both of them. We used to watch them every year on New Years Eve.
Did they get bad reviews or bad audience scores that I can see somewhere?
Did they get bad reviews or bad audience scores that I can see somewhere?
Yeah, there's a lot of this fatalism about JJ's ideas, which I find so odd. As if RJ couldn't have done an almost infinite number of things with these characters. "How could they be together when JJ split them up?" is such a silly excuse when they have ships that literally travel across the galaxy in minutes (or hours or something).
LOL at turning the argument of "Luke wouldn't turn his back on his friends/family or consider murdering his sleeping nephew" into "Luke is always upbeat."
Its like poetry, it rhymes.
This fandom never changes
This is actually a good response that challenges my opinion, so... thanks!
And I agree
But, for starters, you are assuming I'm happy with this stuff in the other movies.
I do like Maul, but I don't like the prequels, so I likely will "miss-understand" things here. I haven't seen them since release
I think no explanation of Maul was fine, because he had no history with important characters and no connection to the state of the war or the events leading up to the movie, beyond being a lackey that's hunting the Jedi down. He's clearly working for the Emperor. The main characters meet him, he kills Qui Gon, the end. The emotion in that climax isn't supposed to be about Maul, or Qui Gon's connection to him. It's about Obi-wan's connection to Qui Gon. This is very different from Snoke/Kylo.
This is also the first movie, so nothing comes before it which contradicts Maul's existence. It would be possible for someone to make a prequel that causes me to ask some questions about Maul, but for now I'm fine
Dooku I always thought was weird and dumb, same with Greivous.
Dooku just seemed like "we need a new Maul". Once again, nothing really contradicts his existence, but I had no emotional interest in the character because he just shows up and leaves. I did not care what happened to him, and there were no real stakes for him being defeated (but this is a problem throughout the prequels). It was interesting that Palpy had Anakin kill him.
Someone told me Grievous was from a cartoon and then I rolled my eyes. So that's why he just randomly appears in the 3rd movie like we're supposed to be impressed, great! Once again, no attachment to this character, though he looks cool, and I love the escape pod gif with the mustache
So this is a good example of why citing the other movies doesn't mean I have to like TLJ. I'm hard on TLJ because I wanted it to be great. Being as good as the prequels won't cut it for me personally, but that's fine if you liked them and want to compare TLJ to them
Now I'll focus on Fett
- He was from a cartoon, but he wasn't explained there, either. This can be ignored
- Fett is fantastic in Empire, I don't need more from him. He shows up to do what he's hired to do. He finds Solo when the Empire can't because he is not operating within a rigid military structure. He operates on Solo's level. With the scum and villainy. He bridges the military world and the crime world in Star Wars, getting us ready to go back to the Cantina style fun of ANH when we get to ROTJ
Plus, he's a bridge to Solo's past (not in the Wookiepedia sense that they've met before in a cringey comic or something; I know they have, I read them too).Yes, we know little about him personally, but we know his motivation and his presence reminds us that Solo isn't kidding when Solo says he needs to leave. Solo ran into a bounty hunter on Tatooine, here's another one. A bigger, badder, more serious one, that knows Solo's tricks. Solo being hunted has been established, this needs no explanation. Han is in trouble.
Fett is a new character who is included as further characterization of Solo (the whole B plot of ESB is Solo allegory). He has a distinct purpose. The Empire could have just followed Solo with a tracking device, or had an officer notice them land at Cloud City, or something lame. It's much more interesting that the past Solo's been running from is what the Empire uses to catch him. This is good writing. This is a theme. This is a character failure with appropriate punishment that does not seem manufactured
- Then there's Return of the Jedi. I love Return of the Jedi. I'm happy to admit that I hate Fett's role in it. He may as well be a different character. He doesn't belong there (is he a guard now?). He shouldn't die like that. But who cares. I still love the movie! and I assume Fett was on vacation at Jabba's Palace gambling away Han's bounty and was drunk when it all went down
See how Fett is explained by his presence in ESB alone? He is not explained via exposition. We do not need a Wookiepedia entry. We don't even get his name in Empire (whereas Snoke's name is peppered through TFA...)! Vader doesn't look in the camera and say "Here's Boba Fett, he knows how to track down Solo because Solo is a tricky smuggler who uses dirty tactics that only outlaws and undesirables can predict. Buy his action figure". Instead we get an incredulous "We don't need their scum!" from an officer, beautiful movie!
Leia doesn't look at Han and say "Well I guess your past has come back to get you after all" (she comes close... it's a kids movie...)
We just see it happen, and we know why it's happening because it's well executed. This is what I wanted from Snoke, but on a grander scale, since his connection with Kylo, the FO, Luke/Leia makes him a much, much more important character than Fett would ever be. Since he's actually referenced by name in the movie. That Snoke has about as much development/character as Fett is inexcusable
Fett answers more questions than he asks. The questions that Fett asks are about him "What's under the mask" "What's the missle for" etc. Wookepedia grade stuff. But he answers questions about the plot. "Why does Solo insist he has to leave?" "Who's after Solo" "How does the Empire relate to such criminal enterprises" "If Solo can clown on the Empire as he constantly does, what's the danger?"
Fett showing up doesn't bring more questions to the story. This is the big difference between him and Snoke
Concerning "fed a lie" about Vader, great, feed me a lie about Snoke! please! Anything! Anything to make Snoke as interesting as Vader. I'm begging you!
Not sure why you would include Vader, and hilarious that you sum him up with "fed a lie". Really shows where you are coming from. Vader's one of cinema's most well realized villains, despite the prequels. Not a light accomplishment
Concerning the Emperor and Snoke.
First off, I hate that Snoke is Emperor 2.0, so "but he's the same as the Emperor!" doesn't make me a hypocrite for liking the Emperor. I'm fine with people disliking TFA for being a "retread" and still liking ANH. I don't see how this is different. Snoke is already a bad idea when he comes onto the scene as a doppleganger. He's even worse when TLJ doubles down
Concerning their backgrounds, I'm sure you've seen the rest a dozen times, so I'll just quote my opinion from two years ago
Which was not a problem, because the Emperor's existence did not contradict what we knew about the narrative. We knew there was an evil galactic empire. We knew it controlled the galaxy. The fact that said evil empire turned out to be controlled by an evil Emperor did not break our understanding of the story (in fact it made a lot of sense). The only reason the character of the Emperor exists in the OT is to enable Vader to be redeemed. We need not know anything else
Although Snoke is a "clone" of the emperor (in the metaphorical sense) it does not follow that Snoke demands as little explanation as the Emperor. In fact, it means he demands more. It means we are left wondering "How are there two ancient, all-powerful Emperors?" I realize this skates the edge of nerds wanting Wookiepedia entries, but there's also some relevant confusion here when juxtaposed with the end of ROTJ, and with the amount of time it took the Emperor to build up in the prequels. Those are things the audience is already invested in, so hitting the reset button is jarring. I'm happy to believe it happened, but I sure as hell wouldn't mind a bit more context, especially because more context would have made Snoke's death and Kylo's betrayal more impactful.
Show us that Snoke tempted Kylo from afar, tortured him to become this mess. Show us what continuing Kylo's training means (as referenced in the end of TFA) so we can see the abuse. What sort of training creates a monster like Kylo? Wouldn't that be neat to see? We saw he had to kill his father. That's not enough??? Will anything be ;) ??? Would be great juxataposed against Rey on Ahch-To, or callbacks to Luke on Dagobah. 7 foot tall snoke riding on Kylo's back, hittin' him with a stick 'n' stuff. Show us what Snoke wanted from Kylo, and how Kylo's desires contradicted his. As it stands, its unclear exactly what Snoke and Kylo want, and how what Kylo intends to do after killing him differs.
Leia insinuates Snoke caused them to lose Kylo in TFA, but then in TLJ the only perspective we get is Luke blaming himself. Did Snoke cloud Luke's mind when Luke made his mistake? Did Snoke show up at the jedi temple and knock on Kylo's door? We don't really need to know, but we do need some more understanding of how these characters relate if we want their actions to mean something.
We understood the relationship between Darth and Luke, and Darth and Palpy by the end of ROTJ. So we feel something when Vader switches sides. The relationships between Kylo and Rey and Kylo and Snoke are... muddled... to say the least. Give us more weight to Kylo throwing off those shackles beyond "he made fun of my helmet".
The problem I have with Snoke in TLJ is that he's unceremoniously dispatched before he's able to develop into anything interesting or useful to the story, something even defenders of TLJ seem to be willing to agree with me on.
I can totally sympathize with those who like that a B-tier like Snoke was removed to focus on an A-tier like Kylo. I don't disagree with the move in theory. My issue is with the execution, I don't think the payoff with shifting to Kylo will be worth it in the end (especially if the result is them having to bring the real Emperor back)
Snoke already exists because of TFA. Once he exists, dumping him is jarring. Better to make him more interesting than he was originally intended to be. Then, maybe you won't need to bring back the Emperor
Anyway, you can like what Rian did with Snoke.
I did not.
So I answered your question
My question for you is, does the above make me dumb? Does it mean I'm just mad that my head-cannon wasn't fullfilled?
Does it appear that I do not "understand" TLJ, or better yet, writing or cinema as a whole?
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A lot of times people that vehemently support something can lose perspective and that phenomenon is certainly at play in points. With film specifically, people will often ignore the reality of movies as stories that are created, formed from nothing. Of course maybe this disconnect is more obvious if you've done film school or are a writer as it could give you a richer appreciation of the process.
This is a good example of that because there was nothing stopping RJ from keeping the trio together.
1. There is no need for TLJ to start right where TFA ended. You can do a timeskip if years even AND slowly infer what happened with Luke. Or you could start the story months after TFA and still leave the situation with Luke in Flux! Heck, obviously you don't even need to have gone the route of retconning what TFA setup and making Luke solely having gone there to die. You can do whatever you want.
2. While The Force Awakens was filming, Rian Johnson asked JJ Abrams to alter who was on the ship with Rey. JJ Abrams did! See how simple that is? Even using the existing framework of TLJ and the point at which it continues, there's no need to keep the trio seperate!
3. The reason Rian Johnson didn't do any of these things is because he wasn't interested in doing them not because of what JJ Abrams set up. TLJ is a film that is very clear about where it's focus lies, and it was on Rey/Kylo/Luke. Everything else is deliberately constructed, not around that, but seperated from it so not as to interfere with that thread.
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This hits the crux of the divisive debate on TLJ: you think all of this is great, while many people strongly disagree with you. It's all subjective and opinions. And that's okay.
What's not okay is the TLJ fanatics constantly trying to convince the people who dislike TLJ they are wrong or stupid while the supporters are "right".
OPINION. A DIFFERENCE OF IT IS.
Let it go, enjoy TLJ over and over again, but please stop trying to belittle other people's opinions because it really is wearing thin, even up to the week before RoS comes out. Just....Let it Go.
How in the hell have I never seen this until now.11) Snoke is Goldmember.
I guess clicking TLJ threads can still lead to something good.
Don't take this as personal or the wrong way, but--
I recall, right when the movie came out. A infamously stubborn poster saying to me in our first real interaction « The Last Jedi is litterally perfectly written and the most trancendent Star Wars movie ever made » followed by « If anyone has a problem with TLJ it shows that they aren't worth listening to »
You might have enterpreted it as two years of whining, but I have the receipts. It was also if not as much or more so two years of a lot of people trying their damnedest to explain film and writing conventions to a group of people only to be called a sexist, stupid, alt right 'they didn't understand anything'. Meanwhile these same people typically engaged in massive amounts of revisionism and handwaving of very basic elements of how Star Wars works. Bringing the arguments into some very bizarre tangents.
Should I link literally having to argue that learning to control your emotions was a part of Jedi training? How about someone that was ardently preaching that 'Luke never failed in the OT even once'? 'The Force doesn't have power levels where you level up like an RPG, anything you believe, you can do', 'There's no way that Reys parents were set up to be anything (even though the ship was higher quality and heading off world'), 'Snoke was never set up for the viewer to ask any questions in TFA', 'The Emperor and Snoke were identical and no one asked any questions about the Emperor'.
If the very same people whom were often deriding and insulting others as idiots had maybe cooled it a bit, it wouldn't have taken 2 years to start to move the conversation forward. Even at that, the reason that the conversation has moved forward is largely because of interviews from the writers in the run up to ROTS are blowing up the most foundational elements of their talking points.
It's not just whining. A ton of people spent that time making high quality posts explaining their issues only to be gaslit and straw-manned quite unfairly. :\
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had to stop watching after the dumb force balance graphs. None of what was said so far is why I don't like TLJ tho
Agreed. Johnson could have done anything with the story. Not sure why people have got it into their heads that it couldn't have gone any other way. Could have started with a scene resolving Luke and Rey's meeting, then gone anywhere from there.
Enjoyed the video (and enjoyed TLJ though it's a mess in certain ways).
Star Wars is a religion to people.
Like a religion, it made a strong impression in your childhood. Also, people get different things out of religion: socialization, answers to questions about life/the universe/meaning, good feelings, safety, societal rules and laws. This can cause divisions between people of the same faith fighting over the direction "the Franchise" should go.
With SW, people want different things which explains a lot of the fighting amongst fans. Some just want to feel like they did when they were kids watching the OT and others want SW be more gritty/mature and grow up like they did. Others don't care about lore and others want SW movies to reflect the Universe that was fleshed out over decades of books, comics, video games, action figures, cartoons, etc.
I've seen people say they like Vader scene of Rouge One way more than the rest of the movie. That's the experience some fans want out of Star Wars. All the old stuff but with the look and feel of modern cinema that feels like re-experiencing SW like it's your first time. Marvel Movies make a bajillion dollars because they give fans what they want.
TLJ went too far with "reinventing" Star Wars where it doesn't feel like SW to people. The scene with the war profiteers that makes the "Rebels" just as bad as the Empire, the grandson of Vader being beaten by a mere girl who is a complete nobody, or Luke's portrayal is not the SW that matches what SW is to them. Now of course there are many problems people have with TLJ that don't fall into this category but I think this explains some of the anger.
Also, arguments about "internal constancy" feel it's between like people (myself included) who have this whole universe created in our heads from the EU and reading hours of Wookiepedia articles vs. people who are ok with going along with how new movies do things. It reminds me of theologians who argue with each other about the inconsistencies of religious texts and how to resolve them despite it all being made up thousands of years ago. Movies should try to be internally consistent but who really cares about some hyperdrive maneuver when you're not even supposed to hear X-wings and Tie Fighters in space!
One of the reasons I didn't like TFA is because it felt poorly grounded in the overall Universe. Yet I realized that that was a "me problem" and lots of people enjoyed these movies without the baggage we fans have. Doesn't mean these movies don't have problems. I have huge issues with how Disney is handling SW but I'm afraid this baggage will always get in the way of whatever direction Star Wars ultimately goes toward.
Star Wars is a religion to people.
Like a religion, it made a strong impression in your childhood. Also, people get different things out of religion: socialization, answers to questions about life/the universe/meaning, good feelings, safety, societal rules and laws. This can cause divisions between people of the same faith fighting over the direction "the Franchise" should go.
With SW, people want different things which explains a lot of the fighting amongst fans. Some just want to feel like they did when they were kids watching the OT and others want SW be more gritty/mature and grow up like they did. Others don't care about lore and others want SW movies to reflect the Universe that was fleshed out over decades of books, comics, video games, action figures, cartoons, etc.
I've seen people say they like Vader scene of Rouge One way more than the rest of the movie. That's the experience some fans want out of Star Wars. All the old stuff but with the look and feel of modern cinema that feels like re-experiencing SW like it's your first time. Marvel Movies make a bajillion dollars because they give fans what they want.
TLJ went too far with "reinventing" Star Wars where it doesn't feel like SW to people. The scene with the war profiteers that makes the "Rebels" just as bad as the Empire, the grandson of Vader being beaten by a mere girl who is a complete nobody, or Luke's portrayal is not the SW that matches what SW is to them. Now of course there are many problems people have with TLJ that don't fall into this category but I think this explains some of the anger.
Also, arguments about "internal constancy" feel it's between like people (myself included) who have this whole universe created in our heads from the EU and reading hours of Wookiepedia articles vs. people who are ok with going along with how new movies do things. It reminds me of theologians who argue with each other about the inconsistencies of religious texts and how to resolve them despite it all being made up thousands of years ago. Movies should try to be internally consistent but who really cares about some hyperdrive maneuver when you're not even supposed to hear X-wings and Tie Fighters in space!
One of the reasons I didn't like TFA is because it felt poorly grounded in the overall Universe. Yet I realized that that was a "me problem" and lots of people enjoyed these movies without the baggage we fans have. Doesn't mean these movies don't have problems. I have huge issues with how Disney is handling SW but I'm afraid this baggage will always get in the way of whatever direction Star Wars ultimately goes toward.
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I don't think you want to have a serious discussion about this. To be honest.
Oh no, you mean all of those movies I've watched video essays on over the years were actually garbage?
You've heard of people analyzing movies before, right?
I agree with pretty much all of the points he makes in this video, like TLJ as a movie and think he especially has a good take-down of people who are basically inventing flaws in the movie. That being said I feel like he only ever really touches upon parts of the movie here; the entire Finn/Rose story feels pretty uninteresting and doesn't really contribute to the movie's themes enough to justify its portion of the runtime (he briefly mentions Canto Blight not being good which is true but that's one part of the story) and Poe's entire arc is repetitive and drags its feet. I like the movie but I'm pretty hesitant when evaluating it wrt other "good" Star Wars movies because I think the negative aspects of the movie really do drag it down.
None of that is the reason why I didn't like TLJ. Rey didn't even beat Kylo in this movie, so that's not even relevant. Is it really so hard for TLJ lovers to believe that many of us just didn't think it was a very good movie?