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Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,298
A wonderful video that actually expresses a lot of my thoughts better than I've been able to.

I think TLJ is an amazing film, but seeing the reaction to it compared to Rogue One and The Mandalorian in particular has made me realize that I don't walk in step with a lot of the fanbase. Dont get me wrong, I like both of those too, but TLJ really resonated with me. It's a movie about Star Wars, about growing up, there's a ton of meta-textual stuff going on. And I dont think they're gonna do anything like that again for a long time.
 

Valiant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,310
Dec 22, 2017
7,099
Dude literally finished Force Awakens with a "I am here to get rey and get out" feeling of "i am not joining any sides" like a space boogie2988 even having being a fucking stormtrooper and seeing all the destruction the first order does first hand.

Sorry, he could not have just stayed in the same place as the others, he needed to see something he didn't saw yet to become a part of the rebellion ... like rich people being happy with slave children. Kinda overkill? Yes, but whatever =P

I walked away from TFA feeling like Finn successfully faced his fears and was ready to take an important role in the series as it progressed. To each his own though.

To add to that, there are other ways they could have grown Finn as a character. He could have woke up from his coma paralyzed from the waist down, and spent the movie shadowing Leia and seeing first hand how important her dedication to the cause is. Learn to be more than just a pew pew soldier. Could have tapped into some of the breadcrumbs JJ left of him possibly feeling the force, i.e. the scene in the village. Same themes of growth and sacrifice could have been tackled.

I like about half of TLJ, and thought all the Luke, Kylo and Rey stuff was cool. But I can't help but feel that Rian had no interest in Finn and downgraded him to the C plot.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,180
Toronto
A wonderful video that actually expresses a lot of my thoughts better than I've been able to.

I think TLJ is an amazing film, but seeing the reaction to it compared to Rogue One and The Mandalorian in particular has made me realize that I don't walk in step with a lot of the fanbase. Dont get me wrong, I like both of those too, but TLJ really resonated with me. It's a movie about Star Wars, about growing up, there's a ton of meta-textual stuff going on. And I dont think they're gonna do anything like that again for a long time.
A large, vocal portion of the fanbase just wanted to see the "correct" pairings of action figures battle it out on the big screen.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,704
Brazil
I walked away from TFA feeling like Finn successfully faced his fears and was ready to take an important role in the series as it progressed. To each his own though.

Except that was the first movie of a trilogy. If he was ready what the hell he would do in the other 2 movies?
It is not good storytelling if the character reachs his destianation too soon.

To add to that, there are other ways they could have grown Finn as a character. He could have woke up from his coma paralyzed from the waist down, and spent the movie shadowing Leia and seeing first hand how important her dedication to the cause is. Learn to be more than just a pew pew soldier. Could have tapped into some of the breadcrumbs JJ left of him possibly feeling the force, i.e. the scene in the village. Same themes of growth and sacrifice could have been tackled.

I like about half of TLJ, and thought all the Luke, Kylo and Rey stuff was cool. But I can't help but feel that Rian had no interest in Finn and downgraded him to the C plot.

The dude who spends the entire first movie following everyone (aka being grabbed) around was downgraded to no interest when it had a plot of his own?
I can agree that Finn was done worst than the rest, but this is not just a last jedi problem

Themes of growth and sacrifice is literally what last jedi do to finn. He is literally ready to sacrifice himself for a cause and then understands when to better use it
 

Deleted member 41638

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 3, 2018
1,164
Underlying themes, plot threads, and character arcs are good in theory but I don't like how they are presented on screen. Like all the comedy bits fall flat for me, other than the porg eating scene, that was pretty good.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617
giphy.gif
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Nearly all of this was great (Hux being a joke sidekick was fantastic considering it was impossible to take his TFA speech seriously).

Poe's storyline is fantastic and works well within the themes of the movie.

Phasma's deleted scene was short enough that I don't think the pacing would have been off, but she's basically Jango Fett, anyway.

Rose saving Finn and the kiss were not just great, but the scene of the explosion behind them during the kiss was maybe the perfect way to relay the theme of saving what we love. It's earned.

Poe's story is garbage because it ends with the two female leaders gushing over him after he commits a mutiny not to mention that Poe is responsible for most of their people's deaths and Leia tells everyone to follow him.

It's stupid as fuck
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
I walked away from TFA feeling like Finn successfully faced his fears and was ready to take an important role in the series as it progressed. To each his own though.

To add to that, there are other ways they could have grown Finn as a character. He could have woke up from his coma paralyzed from the waist down, and spent the movie shadowing Leia and seeing first hand how important her dedication to the cause is. Learn to be more than just a pew pew soldier. Could have tapped into some of the breadcrumbs JJ left of him possibly feeling the force, i.e. the scene in the village. Same themes of growth and sacrifice could have been tackled.

I like about half of TLJ, and thought all the Luke, Kylo and Rey stuff was cool. But I can't help but feel that Rian had no interest in Finn and downgraded him to the C plot.
Same. The events in TLJ for Finn did nothing for me. Canto Bight felt very odd and out of place for a number of reasons. Its messaging was beyond simplistic and over the top even possibly for Star Wars.

More importantly though, those events on Canto Bight and the subsequent failure on the Supremacy in no way made me feel like they had a real impact on Finn to the point that he learned anything or was really changed by them, let alone justify his state of mind for his suicidal attempt at the end of the film on Crait. It was such a minuscule part of the film overall and felt like a complete afterthought. Especially with how great the Luke/Rey/Kylo events were and on point their themes and messaging was for both the series and those characters specifically.

I'm all for teaching lessons through failure and everything they were going for, but it felt entirely unnecessary that Finn needed to be won over to the Resistance. Yes it's a viable interpretation, but not a very good one. I would have believed and felt it far more interesting if Finn instead went down a path of misguided reasoning for joining the Resistance. Much like Poe believing luck and gambles will save them and not really understanding or weighing the risks and loss of life that could come from it. And more importantly tying this back into his background with the FO and putting him down a path of vengeance and blind desire to destroy them. Have him join the Resistance and support Poe's foolhardy plans because he now sees offense and destroying his enemy as his cause for fighting and not to save innocents.

Skip out on Canto Bight, go straight to infiltrating the Supremacy and spending some time forcing Finn to face the reality of the FO's crimes against people and what they do, have a side plot where they deal with some of these child soldiers like he went through and that saving them and others like them from the FO is the reason to fight, not just to kill them all and seek blind vengeance. And then fail because the plan was bad and go down to Crait desperate and confused, go on a suicide run and get saved by Rose. Except have her shoot him down because continuity wise that ship crash made no sense and have the battering ram wing her ship so it crashes too, but they can still use it to fly back, cause that was a long as fucking walk to carry her.
 

Valiant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,310
Poe's story is garbage because it ends with the two female leaders gushing over him after he commits a mutiny not to mention that Poe is responsible for most of their people's deaths and Leia tells everyone to follow him.

It's stupid as fuck

When Leia tells people to follow him its because he did find a solution (an escape which is what he never did prior to this) and the fact there is literally like 20 people left.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,584
I knew as soon as we saw Finn waking up in the beginning with his suit squirting everywhere, that his character arc was going to be that, a complete joke. What a disappointing movie
Right? I was so hype in TFA seeing a black protagonist wielding a lightsaber, and for that feeling to be completely deflated for that AWFUL canto casino side plot was a deal breaker for me tbh.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
It's not that bad, but could've been done better.

It's the main reason I have never rewatched the film, it's just feels pointless.

The kiss is fine, I agree with the rest though

C'mon now, that kiss was straight up cringeworthy. There's no chemistry, no sexual tension, no romance, nothing. Finn's awkward reaction mirrors the audiences.

He's always been a joke.

Except in Awakens he wasn't, he even had a sort of rivalry with Kylo but now he's turned into a cartoon.

Strongly disagree.
Holdo failed to keep the resistance together, but she was right in not telling Poe the plan.

If she 'failed' to keep the resistance together then how could she have been 'right'?

Had she told Poe the plan he'd have gone along with it as he did when he was finally told about it.

And the message of this huge chunk of this B plot is: follow orders, don't ask questions. Real great moral especially coming off the back of Awakens and Finn's decision to disobey orders.


The entire Crait battle is literally Hoth: walkers, white looking planet, even snow storm troopers for some reason.

The throne room is so similar to Return of the Jedi it's farcical.


You mean it's in the movie? Or it's the movie's fault?

Because we do not see Luke react to Han's death, that was a deleted scene only.

is still great, but he hasn't got much screentime indeed.

Not just the screentime, he doesn't do anything but act as an uber driver.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
If she 'failed' to keep the resistance together then how could she have been 'right'?

Had she told Poe the plan he'd have gone along with it as he did when he was finally told about it.

she told him the plan, they were escaping to crait

he throw shit around and call her a coward and a traitor.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,584
Well now you know!



I think Canto scenes are easily the weakest of the movie not giving Finn too much to do or having a super meaningful arc but it's doesn't ruin Finn.

I was being sarcastic, mace windu is a side character he's barely in those movies. Come one now you really wanna say Mace Windu was one of the protagonists of the prequels? He has like 5 minutes of screen time
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
reposting my response from the previous thread:

it's on youtube can't trust it /s

i mean this is just the other side of the coin of the discourse isn't it?

RLM clips cut from context to convey a different point, same with Hamil's interview clips at the end ("but I was wrong" was in reference to whether or not people would get upset over creative decisions he initially disagreed with)
wanting more backstory on snoke becomes "do you want him to go into an expository monologue and grind the pacing to a halt?" just feels disingenuous
"Leia flying through space was fine because you can survive in space for a few minutes actually and it's basically a force pull, everything is silly now you care? get over it." like okay i've heard that before it doesn't add anything to the discourse just serves to over explain something thats flaw is its execution not its concept.

i agree with his overall sentiment at the end to take it down a notch but dont feel as though the entire video proceeding it is in nature with that message lol

I'm noticing a LOT of disingenuous strawmanning in this video so far. :|

This video is kind of garbage tbh.
 

Valiant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,310
I was being sarcastic, mace windu is a side character he's barely in those movies.

I am aware of your attempt at sarcasm.

Mace Windu might not have a ton of scenes but he's an integral part of the plot especially in ROTS.

The messaging is that Poe is a real leader now.

This guy should honestly be in prison after all this

He was in jail briefly. And yes if we were going to follow the track that TLJ set he should end up in jail but JJ won't do that. So.

However it's not a great time to put someone in jail who is now helping you escape complete eradication when you only have a small ship worth of people.
 

Skiptastic

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,699
A wonderful video that actually expresses a lot of my thoughts better than I've been able to.

I think TLJ is an amazing film, but seeing the reaction to it compared to Rogue One and The Mandalorian in particular has made me realize that I don't walk in step with a lot of the fanbase. Dont get me wrong, I like both of those too, but TLJ really resonated with me. It's a movie about Star Wars, about growing up, there's a ton of meta-textual stuff going on. And I dont think they're gonna do anything like that again for a long time.
Your second paragraph is basically my feelings. I loved The Force Awakens, really like The Mandalorian, and I enjoyed a lot of Rogue One (and Solo too) but The Last Jedi really touched me deeply like Star Wars hadn't since I had gotten the THX VHS tapes of the original trilogy. Maybe it's because of the mirror Binary Sunset shot...that's probably it lol.
 

n00bs7ay3r

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Aug 21, 2018
1,159
Nearly all of this was great (Hux being a joke sidekick was fantastic considering it was impossible to take his TFA speech seriously).

Poe's storyline is fantastic and works well within the themes of the movie.

Phasma's deleted scene was short enough that I don't think the pacing would have been off, but she's basically Jango Fett, anyway.

Rose saving Finn and the kiss were not just great, but the scene of the explosion behind them during the kiss was maybe the perfect way to relay the theme of saving what we love. It's earned.

How was Rose "saving" Finn great? She literally runs into him with her ship. It is a maneuver that could have, and would have, killed them both. It makes ZERO sense and is a major WTF moment in the movie.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,584
I am aware of your attempt at sarcasm.

Mace Windu might not have a ton of scenes but he's an integral part of the plot especially in ROTS.



He was in jail briefly. And yes if we were going to follow the track that TLJ set he should end up in jail but JJ won't do that. So.

However it's not a great time to put someone in jail who is now helping you escape complete eradication when you only have a small ship worth of people.
This is some disingenuous shit tbh. I said I was hyped for a black male protagonist with a light saber. You tried to gotcha me with Mace Windu, who is nowhere even close to the realm of what could be considered a protagonist.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Dude literally finished Force Awakens with a "I am here to get rey and get out" feeling of "i am not joining any sides" like a space boogie2988 even having being a fucking stormtrooper and seeing all the destruction the first order does first hand.

Sorry, he could not have just stayed in the same place as the others, he needed to see something he didn't saw yet to become a part of the rebellion ... like rich people being happy with slave children. Kinda overkill? Yes, but whatever =P

Everything after that point has him not acting out of a desire to save Rey, but to fight the FO because it's the right thing to do. He goes back on willingly, he has to be pulled out, he even stands up to Kylo Ren knowing he will not stand a real chance.
 

Valiant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,310
This is some disingenuous shit tbh. I said I was hyped for a black male protagonist with a light saber. You tried to gotcha me with Mace Windu, who is nowhere even close to the realm of what could be considered a protagonist.

It's not disingenuous to say he is a protagonist. Use the right words if you want to say something like main character and not protagonist. Because by your logic Finn isn't even a protagonist because the movies are mostly about Rey who is the main protagonist.

And Mace IS a protagonist as he sits on the Jedi council and attempts to stop Palpatine.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
never expected this from you, no sir!

LOL

Do you believe that because TLJ has roughly 4 protagonists that have other 2 juxtapositional fouls providing them providing wants and needs that it is inherently a better made story than one that does not? Let's say a story has a deurotagonist pair? Is it worse than having 4? Serious question.
 

Haruko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,641
I liked TLJ; I enjoyed their take on Luke (was it way different from what I was used to from all my old EU novels? Sure, but it was still in character for Luke).
Poe's development was good. Kylo/Rey stuff was good. Canto Bight was ok; I get why Finn needed to see things for himself. I just wish the backdrop was utilized more. Felt like a rest stop instead of a set piece like Jabba's Palace or the Mos Eisley Cantina.

The only part that was sour to me was Rose "saving" Finn by nearly killing herself AND him in those rusty ski speeders.

They knew from the get-go that the ski speeders had no weapons and were falling apart. It was clearly a suicide mission for all of them. Finn was about to succeed and then he is stopped by a crash so strong it knocks Rose into a coma and easily could have killed them both (the romance there felt forced to me too, but whatever). That whole scene just didn't make much sense to me. It would have made more sense to stop Finn from blowing up himself/the First Order superlaser cannon if that wasn't their entire plan at the Battle of Crait.

EDIT: example; if the speeders had some weapons and their plan was to harass the walkers to buy time, and Finn on his own decided to try to kamikaze, then stopping him makes more sense (maybe stop him without causing a potentially deadly crash too, if you have weapons). But as it stands it was just clunky.
 
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MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,584
It's not disingenuous to say he is a protagonist. Use the right words if you want to say something like main character and not protagonist. Because by your logic Finn isn't even a protagonist because the movies are mostly about Rey who is the main protagonist.

And Mace IS a protagonist as he sits on the Jedi council and attempts to stop Palpatine.
Lmao ok this isn't even worth my time. You knew exactly what my post meant. This is complete bullshit, disingenuous garbage. Another for the ignore pile
 

Ryan.

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
12,889
If I need a +30 min explaining why this movie is rich in story telling it's probably not that rich in story telling. It's a garbage movie, don't understand the rabbid defense force here.
If people actually paid attention to the movie then maybe there wouldn't need to be 30+ minute videos to explain what the viewer ignored.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
The whole Holdo vs Poe thing felt bad too. The lowkey bait that Holdo was a traitor was weak and kind of silly. I hate stories that purposefully have characters not tell one another relevant info they otherwise would in order to create conflicts or setup things in the plot. It's rarely handled believably or feels earned. The larger premise of teaching Poe a lesson in leadership was fine, but it was poorly executed for me.

It would have been a lot more interesting, believable and compelling if they simply told Poe the plan to escape to Crait and fool the FO but him being a hot head thought it too risky, cowardly, etc and he believed taking the fight to them, saving the capital ships, etc was the better option and just did his own thing despite being told otherwise.

But still 75% of the movie was Rey/Luke/Kylo and that was all pretty fantastic and flawless for me. The one deleted scene was great and I kind of wish it was still there, but for pacing it was maybe good it was left out.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,704
Brazil
Everything after that point has him not acting out of a desire to save Rey, but to fight the FO because it's the right thing to do. He goes back on willingly, he has to be pulled out, he even stands up to Kylo Ren knowing he will not stand a real chance.

he literally starts the movie standing against kylo ren, that is not character growth
 

Foxtastical

Member
Oct 27, 2017
412
If people actually paid attention to the movie then maybe there wouldn't need to be 30+ minute videos to explain what the viewer ignored.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not someone that gets all weird about author intent, but the amount of misunderstanding and misreading of the Last Jedi is truly mind blowing to me. "The movie is about killing the past." When I see that, I just don't understand.
 

n00bs7ay3r

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Aug 21, 2018
1,159
If people actually paid attention to the movie then maybe there wouldn't need to be 30+ minute videos to explain what the viewer ignored.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ahhh. The good ol' Rick and Morty defense. If you don't like it it is because you just didn't understand it. The problem lies with the viewer not the movie...
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
he literally starts the movie standing against kylo ren, that is not character growth

He does not. He starts the film standing alongside Kylo Ren before, in a distinctly humanist display, shows grief for a fallen Storm Trooper and the villagers. After that he continuously tries to run/avoid/evade until the end of the film where he is acting selflessly, putting himself in danger simply because it's the right thing to do, and not because running away was not an option for him.
 

brinstar

User requested ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,275
Yeah this video echoes a lot about why I enjoyed the movie so much, put into better words than I ever could.
 

Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,298
Ahhh. The good ol' Rick and Morty defense. If you don't like it it is because you just didn't understand it. The problem lies with the viewer not the movie...
In the case of TLJ, it seems willful. The idea that the movie is about killing the past is such a completely insane read that I have trouble believing that its honest.
 

Ryan.

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
12,889
Ahhh. The good ol' Rick and Morty defense. If you don't like it it is because you just didn't understand it. The problem lies with the viewer not the movie...
Well when people still say the theme of the movie is "forget the past" then yes, the problem does lie with the viewer.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,584
I'm not someone that gets all weird about author intent, but the amount of misunderstanding and misreading of the Last Jedi is truly mind blowing to me. "The movie is about killing the past." When I see that, I just don't understand.
Tbh I see more people complaining about people saying the movie is about "killing the past" than I do actually saying it is