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GattsuSama

Member
Mar 12, 2020
1,761
If you're a programmer, then working in game development, whether on AAA or indie, is already sacrificing half of your potential salary just to be able to make what you enjoy. Working on a game you consider actively harmful makes zero sense; you may as well work for the nearest corp and get paid twice as much.
Thanks for the reply.

I think you hit a few point I hadn't considered. I already work for one of these "corps" so I don't have as big a care or stake on the product itself as if it was gaming.

In the end I think I am not privileged enough to be able to quit in something like this comes up. Maybe one day I will be successful enough were I can take more of these considerations.
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I think it would be good for the developers to publicly disowned Rowling and her views. If members of the main cast did it, also can they.

I doubt they can do that and remain employed for long. For all we know some may have left the project early, unsung heroes we'll never know about.

The cast can do it because they don't need to be tied to Rowling in any way anymore, although it would have certainly been interesting to see if they would have said anything while the movies were still being made.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
She has billions of dollars, so she can have as big of a platform as she wants. This huge discussion around J.K Rowling and her transphobia predates this game. Her platform was built by Harry Potter, but as there isn't much recent Harry Potter media apart from this game, I fail to see how her platform is sustained by new Harry Potter media.
You don't see how her platform and relevance built on HP media products is sustained by a, er, sustained release list of Harry Potter media products ?
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,770
I was wondering, is there a way for this company or WB to buy out whatever stakes JKR has in HP like what happened between Mojang and Notch with Minecraft? Like disassociate themselves officially from a person that doesn't represent their values or their games.
No.

Harry Potter is tied to JK Rowling. I mean I suppose they COULD try to buy the IP, but why pay however much money she'd ask for (which would be a few billion i imagine) when for them this arrangement works out fine. That lady's always said some fucked up shit, and people still saw the below averageFantastic Beasts 1 and 2, and will see any sequels.

And yes using "but the devs" is a shitty response. Own that you made a decision, you weighed the pros and cons, and in your mind the pros outweighed the cons. It's no different than when you make the same decision buying other products which have shit or horrible origins (which lets be real, most people don't give a fuck or don't care about stuff unless it affects them personally). You pick the cause you're willing to fight for, or not fight for and how much energy you want to put into it.
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
She has billions of dollars, so she can have as big of a platform as she wants.

It doesn't work that way. Her platform is a direct result of Harry Potter, not her money. There's billionaires you know nothing about, and conversely there's authors of popular media that aren't rich but have a huge following. At this point you're disingenuous for the sake of it.
 

sku

Member
Feb 11, 2018
782
It doesn't work that way. Her platform is a direct result of Harry Potter, not her money. There's billionaires you know nothing about, and conversely there's authors of popular media that aren't rich but have a huge following. At this point you're disingenuous for the sake of it.

No, I'm not being disingenuous. Those billionaires are likely quiet because they want to be, the way I see it. Feel free to say I'm wrong. What was that you said earlier about arguing in bad faith? I think you're falling into that trap yourself by calling me disingenuous.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,711
Should you really be an admin here? You seem to berate people more than anyone else here. I just said that her platform was built by Harry Potter.
If you have a problem with my being an admin, make an appeal to the staff and tell them why you think I deserve to be demoted for calling you obtuse.

But yes, if you acknowledge that her platform was built by Harry Potter, it is self-evident that continuing to buy Harry Potter shit is the most direct way of sustaining her platform and ultimately her transphobic views. Because remember, Harry Potter is also a children's franchise; It's probably at hundreds of millions of not a billion or so readers at this point in its entire lifespan. That is a lot of people- particularly children- in the wheelhouse of a transphobe, who are more likely to be more sympathetic to her and less so to transpeople because they made a book series they really dig.

Buying the game maintains her platform. If this bothers you, either don't buy the game or buy it used if you need to play a wizard roleplay video game THAT badly.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,787
So can we threadmark actual dev responses or quote them in the OP? I'm reading the thread and I see a few posts but a lot of the conversation seems to be a repeat from other threads and this seems like it might be a useful resource if there were an easy way to see the posts.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
So can we threadmark actual dev responses or quote them in the OP? I'm reading the thread and I see a few posts but a lot of the conversation seems to be a repeat from other threads and this seems like it might be a useful resource if there were an easy way to see the posts.
Good shout. I'll do that (unless Weltall Zero would rather curate his own thread!)
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Should you really be an admin here?

*bites tongue* What I'm questioning if is you should be an user here.

You seem to berate people more than anyone else here. I just said that her platform was built by Harry Potter.

You said that her platform is a product of her money, not HP's popularity. Both her platform AND her money are a consequence of HP, but there's no direct causal link between her money and her platform. Therefore, to diminish her platform, you want to disminish HP's popularity, not her money. QED.
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
So can we threadmark actual dev responses or quote them in the OP? I'm reading the thread and I see a few posts but a lot of the conversation seems to be a repeat from other threads and this seems like it might be a useful resource if there were an easy way to see the posts.

Ugh, I'm a utter forgetful doofus. -_- This was even the idea from the very start. Let me do that right away.

Edit: Done, I think. Please let me know if I missed any.
 
Last edited:

sku

Member
Feb 11, 2018
782
But yes, if you acknowledge that her platform was built by Harry Potter, it is self-evident that continuing to buy Harry Potter shit is the most direct way of sustaining her platform. Because remember, Harry Potter is also a children's franchise; It's probably at hundreds of millions of not a billion or so readers at this point in its entire lifespan. That is a lot of people- particularly children- in the wheelhouse of a transphobe, who are more likely to be more sympathetic to her and less so to transpeople because they made a book series they really dig.

Yes, I see your point. I shouldn't have said that it doesn't sustain her platform, because I do actually think it does. What I was trying to say is that I think she would have a large enough one regardless. So, I guess the question is to what degree the games grow her platform, which I see as negligible degree and you see as an important degree.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,499
She has billions of dollars, so she can have as big of a platform as she wants. This huge discussion around J.K Rowling and her transphobia predates this game. Her platform was built by Harry Potter, but as there isn't much recent Harry Potter media apart from this game, I fail to see how her platform is sustained by new Harry Potter media.

There was a movie in 2016 and a movie in 2018. The third might have been out this year, if not for the pandemic; instead it's either about to start filming or has just started filming.

There is a phone game that started in 2018 that appears to be decently popular and making a lot of money. There is another phone game - a Pokemon Go-like from Niantic - from 2019 that appears to have not caught on as much but is still somewhat popular. There are 2 more phone games in development.

There is absolutely recent Harry Potter media being made that is sustaining the franchise.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,711
So, I guess the question is to what degree the games grow her platform, which I see as negligible degree and you see as an important degree.
The point of disagreement is that you believe that there is a line to be drawn between the degree of support for Rowling, and that some actions are okay and some aren't.

While I think that any support for Rowling, no matter how negligible, is morally wrong.
 

sku

Member
Feb 11, 2018
782
You said that her platform is a product of her money, not HP's popularity. Both her platform AND her money are a consequence of HP, but there's no direct causal link between her money and her platform. Therefore, to diminish her platform, you want to disminish HP's popularity, not her money. QED.

Ok, I thought we were talking about not giving money to a transphobe, though? Is that no longer important? That just seemed to be the focus of the posts here, not ensuring that this game tanks so that it doesn't help grow J.K Rowling's platform.
 

CptDrunkBear

Member
Jan 15, 2019
62
I agree it's not on the consumer, for sure. And I also agree bonuses are manipulative garbage. I'm just challenging the idea that OP set forward that sales don't impact the devs, which is flat out wrong. Bonuses are just one of the ways that would manifest, it might as well be lowered annual raises or layoffs.

In my experience as a dev, bonuses have only ever been promised when the publisher is confident that there's no chance the criteria will be met, and they therefore don't have to pay.

I'm genuinely sorry that you got screwed like that.
 

jblanco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,489
This is a meta-moderation argument I don't much care for. A warning IS an FYI; renaming them in order to preserve some fragile egos is whatever.

We're adults and can search for things on our own, PM mods for more information, etc. If you are warned for a specific reason, and then do it again instead of informing yourself, then I don't care how "resentful" you are towards whatever "cause", you deserve to be banned for a while to reflect on it.

Again, I feel like you are making an argument about Era moderation in general rather than specifically about this topic, so this is probably not the best place for it.
Well, I meant that I can't fully agree with you with the way moderation works atm. I mean you are literally calling the mods in your thread title.

I know you are angry, and rightfully so, but imo it's better to be smart about how to approach a problem. Yeah, it sucks that petty shit such as 'fragile egos' get in the way, but imo it's naive to think that is not a problem in this day and age. It's precisely people with fragile egos those who radicalize quickly and then become fucking time bombs. The other side is precisely exploiting this.
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Ok, I thought we were talking about not giving money to a transphobe, though? Is that no longer important? That just seemed to be the focus of the posts here, not ensuring that this game tanks so that it doesn't help grow J.K Rowling's platform.

Seems to me you want us to hand you a list of bullet points to check, instead of actually empathizing with trans people, and using simple logic to decide how to best curb the damage she's actively causing them.

Which, I guess, is entirely appropriate for the spirit of this thread.
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Well, I meant that I can't fully agree with you with the way moderation works atm. I mean you are literally calling the mods in your thread title.

How is the fact that I'm asking the mods to do a very specific thing give you carte blanche to make it about your personal grievances with moderation in general? This is very emphatically not the place to do so.

I know you are angry, and rightfully so, but imo it's better to be smart about how to approach a problem. Yeah, it sucks that petty shit such as 'fragile egos' get in the way, but imo it's naive to think that is not a problem in this day and age. It's precisely people with fragile egos those who radicalize quickly and then become fucking time bombs. The other side is precisely exploiting this.

There is only so much appeasing one can do, and so much "just asking questions" one can tolerate, before concern trolls will derail every single attempt at honest conversation. But, again, that's a topic for a very different thread.
 

Kyrona

Member
Jul 9, 2020
509
Ok, I thought we were talking about not giving money to a transphobe, though? Is that no longer important? That just seemed to be the focus of the posts here, not ensuring that this game tanks so that it doesn't help grow J.K Rowling's platform.

Big game tanks, no more games.
No more games, less popularity.

I want that. I also want her to not make a single cent from this. The two aren't exclusive for me. She is an author, using words to create something is her job. If she uses those words in harmful ways, she does not deserve her job/paycheck.
 

sku

Member
Feb 11, 2018
782
The point of disagreement is that you believe that there is a line to be drawn between the degree of support for Rowling, and that some actions are okay and some aren't.

While I think that any support for Rowling, no matter how negligible, is morally wrong.

Well, you also made some claims about impact, not just morality. I think an individual's action isn't going to have an impact, so I don't believe morality is relevant here. You said that it would have an impact, and like you said you think that apart from whether or not there is an impact that there are some things you just shouldn't do. That's fine. I just question why it matters so much to you in the case where there isn't a notable real-world impact.
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Well, you also made some claims about impact, not just morality. I think an individual's action isn't going to have an impact, so I don't believe morality is relevant here. You said that it would have an impact, and like you said you think that apart from whether or not there is an impact that there are some things you just shouldn't do. That's fine. I just question why it matters so much to you in the case where there isn't a notable real-world impact.

I don't know why you're asking us if the issue is supporting her or supporting the franchise, when your excuse to ignore both is the exact same:
- Supporting the franchise -> It's OK, because my effect on its continuity is negligible.
- Supporting the author -> It's OK, because she has too much money for mine to make any difference.
 

jblanco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,489
How is the fact that I'm asking the mods to do a very specific thing give you carte blanche to make it about your personal grievances with moderation in general? This is very emphatically not the place to do so.

Fair point, I see what you mean now.

There is only so much appeasing one can do, and so much "just asking questions" one can tolerate, before concern trolls will derail every single attempt at honest conversation. But, again, that's a topic for a very different thread.

Concern trolling could be moderated itself tho, I think it already is? Anyway, yes, that is another thread.

Weltall Zero said:
(news flash: in the case of AAA games with dozens or hundreds of salaried devs, barely at all)

Do you have a source(s) on this? I don't mean to be combative, but legitimately interested. I feel it may be a common logic pitfall to think that if a game does not do well, then the company may not fare well, and depending on its current status could lead to layoffs, etc.

This is the best I could find:
Game companies have learned that the boom and bust strategies of hiring when times are good, and then laying off large numbers of staff when the economy tightens, or when game sales dip, is bad publicity and damaging to internal morale. Some states also levy taxes against companies that lay off large numbers of employees.
 

Garcia el Gringo

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,661
NJ
Whenever I saw the "it's unfair to punish the people that worked on this game" sentiment, I almost agree, but the math wrong; that the onus is not on the consumer to consume for the devs not to be "punished".

It's unfair that J.K. Rowling has punished all trans people and trans allies working on the Harry Potter property, and that's that.
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
Well, I think this is a pretty different situation than CD Project Red / Ubisoft. As, the developer of the Harry Potter game, Avalance, could very well be a bunch of great people that really deserve success. It's not their studio that has shitting views or conditions, it's tangled license of the IP, and where the profits will inevitably go.

It's not as simple for me to just say "no, I'm not going to play that because JK" like I can with CD Project Red, because I don't like CD Project and I don't wish to give them my money. The developer of Harry Potter though? It's tough. Sure, I don't want to support Rowling, but do I want to support Avalanche and play a Harry Potter game? Maybe. It's really a personal decision, and I don't think there's a clear moral ground here.

I will say, developers typically do not receive much financial compensation if a game does well. Although, some studios have a very good bonus structure if a game sells well enough or receives good reviews. This really varies from studio to studio and you can't paint it with a broad brush.

So would you not buying the Harry Potter game negatively affect the devs? Not really. Would a large scale boycot of the game affect them? Yes, probably. They likely would not receive any bonuses (if there was potential for one) and are now in danger of their team being scaled back due to missing revenue targets, which could yield layoffs.

I would approach this like I approach any decision regarding consuming a piece of media. Is it something I want to support or not? In this case, I think the developers are far enough removed from the source that I'd feel comfortable buying the game if and only if I was very excited about it and didn't have any qualms with supporting the developer themselves.
 

Bing147

Member
Jun 13, 2018
3,697
Unless you literally buy every game that is released in the world, its simply an idea that doesn't hold water. No one can financially support all of the devs out there. Take the money you were going to use on this and buy another game, support some other developers. The ones specifically at Avalanche, a popular studio with a solid history, are likely to be fine no matter how their Harry Potter game does. If it underperforms, quite frankly that's exactly the kind of project where outside factors would more likely be blamed than the developers themselves. The developers will likely be fine and if they aren't, it is more likely the studio looking for an excuse to harm them than anything else. Let's not forget plenty of examples where entire teams have been laid off right after shipping an enormously successful title. Not buying something isn't punishing anyone either by the way. Not buying something is the default. We don't buy all kinds of things, not to punish anyone but simply because we choose not to. Buying something may be rewarding, but not buying is not punishing.

I saw one interesting post earlier in this thread about what if the developers used this game to send a message that is the opposite of what Rowling is suggesting. Quite frankly, that's very likely not possible. She almost certainly has full creative control in any contract and would stop that if her recent messaging is anything to go on. If they did so though, then sure, you could make a moral argument that spreading the positive message of the game does more good than putting a few pennies in Rowling's pockets does bad. I don't know if I'd agree or not, but it would be a reasonable argument to make. That's not the case though. Very few of those who have spoken out against Rowling continue to have a working relationship with her. Off the top of my head the only one I can think of is Eddie Redmayne who is still in the Fantastic Beasts films, but considering how those have underperformed, I can't imagine he'd be all that hurt by being removed and as an Oscar winning actor with a number of successful films under his belt, he has little worry of this causing significant harm to his career. Good on him for speaking up, but its not the same thing.
 

KC-Slater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,298
Toronto
People compartmentalize the morality of consumerism all the time. When some purchasing decision falls near a person's compartmental line, they tend to want to justify their choices. JK Rowling is a perfect example where people have deep emotional investment in HP and emotional investments in gender inclusivity. It creates mental dissonance. I think there's an argument to be made that we should go easy on those people.

I think it makes sense to say I won't buy or play x because it will result in a net harm to the world of in one situation and then compartmentalize and buy or play or watch y in another instance where it might also result in harms. Nobody is capable of consuming in a way that escape negative external effects. We all draw lines and we *should* draw them.

I've drawn the line on HP stuff, but it was an easy one to draw because my investment was low. For some people it's a harder line to draw.

This is mostly unrelated to your "poor devs" point, which I think is well taken.

I agree with this. I say this on a forum dedicated to discussing toys that were almost exclusively manufactured in deplorable working conditions.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,746
Should you really be an admin here? You seem to berate people more than anyone else here. I just said that her platform was built by Harry Potter.
Your comment was really bad. Admins and regular users alike will probably call you out for it.

Sincere question on how to avoid bans etc: Can I say on ERA that I like the way the game is shaping up? Can I say I am curious about how it ends up with the reviewers and the gamers? What if the game ends up being great and the devs will spread the opposite kind of messages that are coming from that piece of trash Rowling? ... what if they make this platform exactly the opposite of Rowling's statements and believs? Will you banish it just because it is made in the world created by Rowling?
Also (sorry if this point was previously brought up) don't do that terrible thing, like what happened in Cyberpunk threads in the past. If there's a thread dedicated to the bigotry of the devs/studio, don't post a drive-by comment like, "It looks great, can't wait!" If you want to express your excitement for a game, keep it to threads dedicated for excitement or it's Official Thread.

There are too many times, where Era users spitefully ignore outcry in a thread dedicated to the outcry, to indirectly try and smother criticism. It's really weird and gross. I think generally being considerate is the best way to avoid any kind of trouble.
 

Kalem

Member
May 23, 2019
444
Yes, I see your point. I shouldn't have said that it doesn't sustain her platform, because I do actually think it does. What I was trying to say is that I think she would have a large enough one regardless. So, I guess the question is to what degree the games grow her platform, which I see as negligible degree and you see as an important degree.

Games are the most popular form of media for young kids nowadays. If you seriously think that a good game (good beyond being just "a good Harry Potter Game") will not spring a lot of new kids into the whole franchise (movies, books, etc) I think you're being intentionally obtuse.
 

Patsy

Member
Jun 7, 2019
1,280
Germany
You have my sword.

Really, thank you for this. I've been (thankfully?) really busy so I haven't had the time to read any of the threads about this or even watch the footage of the game, but I'm already dreading it & all the downplaying & thinly-veiled transphobia that's probably everywhere. Also reading said downplaying, thnly-veilved transphobia & "think of the devs!!!" shit is also just.. really fucking tiring. Something like your thread should get added onto every OP whenever there's threads about the HP games, THQNordic & 3DRealms games, Cyberpunk 2077, etc.

Also, what a lot of people always seem to forget, because more often than not "think of the devs" only means "but I want to buy and play this game" - you can buy games used and not give a single cent to any of the people if others on a rare occasion ask you to not support them. Whenever someone asks you to maybe reconsider your purchase, it just means not giving money to media that gives money to transphobes, racists, homophobes etc. If you for some fucking reason can't live without video game #75654, fucking get it used. Of course it's not a perfect solution, but it sure is better than to cry about people taking away your video games, because you don't care about giving money to - in this case - a for many years now known transmisogynistic shit.
 

fanboy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,452
Slovakia
Your comment was really bad. Admins and regular users alike will probably call you out for it.


Also (sorry if this point was previously brought up) don't do that terrible thing, like what happened in Cyberpunk threads in the past. If there's a thread dedicated to the bigotry of the devs/studio, don't post a drive-by comment like, "It looks great, can't wait!" If you want to express your excitement for a game, keep it to threads dedicated for excitement or it's Official Thread.

There are too many times, where Era users spitefully ignore outcry in a thread dedicated to the outcry, to indirectly try and smother criticism. It's really weird and gross. I think generally being considerate is the best way to avoid any kind of trouble.

Is this like call to action for not doing this or warning for me because I already did that? I am just not aware of praising this game in thread that reflects the problematic side of it. If I did so, I apologize.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,746
Is this like call to action for not doing this or warning for me because I already did that? I am just not aware of praising this game in thread that reflects the problematic side of it. If I did so, I apologize.
Oh no! Lol, not you. I saw it happen a lot in Cyberpunk threads about transphobia.

Just saying, don't be like those assholes, and you should be good.
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,771
There's the argument of bonuses. I'm not in development but I've worked on projects with salaries and bonuses.
But attaching bonuses to sales is a stressful manipulative tactic when sales don't indicate a great, well made product.
Bonuses often do not trickle down either, to people who have to stay late. Bonuses often do not go to the hundreds of contract employees these companies have.

Bonuses are also *extra* pay and not guaranteed and choosing not to buy a game is not robbing people of bonus.

On the matter of bonuses, people here ignored Randy Pitchfords shitty practices so they could play borderlands 3 and would even get mad at people bringing up new allegations. Randy then refused to give the devs their promised bonuses and people still did not care. Any one using the but the devs argument (especially when you look at all the massive topics around lazy Nintendo devs with 3D all stars right now, and any game news deleys since the start of covid) are arguing in bad faith as people here have shown to just not care unless it suits their agenda.

(also disclaimer I call out this board only because it is the only place I frequent and expect better then what I have seen these past few months.
 
OP
OP
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
(also disclaimer I call out this board only because it is the only place I frequent and expect better then what I have seen these past few months.

Slightly off topic but this is where I'm at, too. Era may not be perfect but it's better than pretty much every alternative. When I criticise it, I do it in pretty much the same way that people criticise their countries; because I want it to be better.
 

leburn98

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,637
It's hard for me to stand on my moral high ground about a game while I feverishly refresh the store page in hopes of nabbing a next gen console that is likely manufactured using Uighur forced labor. No, I choose not to play these moral superiority mind games.

Instead, as is the case with Cyberpunk 2077, another controversal game, the best I can say is having the discussion is important, but acting on it in your own way is equally important. For me, I have made multiple donations over the years to LGBTQ and Trans specific charities (among others) and will continue to do the same for many years to come. Is it a perfect solution? No, but I also do not have to be the arbiter of which lives and rights are more important.

Having said that, with relation to the "think of the devs" argument, I personally think it's silly. As others have stated, there are plenty on Era who will throw out this defense one moment, while they happily drag a developer for an imperfect texture the next.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,054
This argument has always been absurd to me because we buy games for a variety of factors, yet it's only when it's an ethical reason that this concerns comes up. Story sucks? Gameplay sucks? Graphics suck? Don't like the developer? There's never any questions involved in that.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to do the right thing all the time, but there's really no reason for this argument but to protect you from the pain of conscience when making a decision that you know ignores those ethical factors. Being able to feel good for buying a game isn't a human right; if there are legitimate reasons for you to feel bad about it, you should be allowed to feel bad. Nothing is malfunctioning if that's how you feel. Ideally, that compels you to make better decisions later if you somehow can't do it now.
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,039
I think that the developer's livelihood can be affected, because while it is true they have been paid for their work so far, if a controversy damages their product too much, the company may terminate the studio or reduce work force. Changing jobs because you get an assignment where a person is involved with repulsive views is a luxury not everyone can afford. In lower qualified jobs, people may just not find another job in the first place, in other cases they may be bound to a company e.g. because they need to stay local (e.g. because of their family). Even beyond that, developers may feel that the questionable person's input to the game may be negligible or even zero and thus that person's behaviour torpedos their hard work on the game. There are legitimate reasons to feel bad for developers who work on a game such as the recently announced Harry Potter game.

At the same time, if someone has moral issues with buying a game in any way, it is of course their right to express these concerns and to act accordingly. No one is obliged to buy a product just because failure to buy it, at a large enough scale, may have negative repercussions for the people who made the product. It is hard for for me to see a situation where calling for empathy for the developers in isolation would warrant a ban from my perspective.
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
Scotland
If you say 'think of the poor devs' that would mean you buy every game that is ever made. Every dev is a poor dev if you don't buy, by your logic, the game they worked on. This is not what you actually mean so in short, you are lying. Say what you mean. Honesty is always preferable. You hear Rowling is a bigot, you say - I don't care. You hear there is a new game drawn from the source material that Rowling wrote and some people are asking themselves questions in regard to buying it in the light of her bigotry, you say - I don't care. Be honest with yourself, you'll feel better.
 
Jun 5, 2020
958
Someone being a terrible person isn't going to influence my purchasing decision. I'm hispanic and if J.K. Rowling said all hispanic people should die, I would still purchase the new Harry Potter game because in the grand scheme of things, my $60 means nothing.

Now if I had a voice that could reach and persuade others to not purchase the game, it would be a different story. In that scenario, I'd likely boycott the game publicly.
 
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WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,745
Canada
It's always been a completely baffling defense. You dont owe these developers shit, you arent obligated to support them or their company, you can use any reason you want to not buy a game. I dont buy Yoshi games cause I think they play like ass, I didnt buy Shadow Complex cause Orson Scott Card is a homophobe, I wont buy Hogwarts cause Rowling is a transphobe.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,382
Good to see some Devs coming out to oppose being used as a pawn in bigots defending bigots. Great thread, Weltall Zero .

I'm not a game dev, but have worked in some indie stuff in the past and am a code monkey/data analyst currently. I find value in the work I do, and it also pays well... But I could be making a lot more in other sectors, such as mining or oil exploration. However, I also have to be able to look at myself in the mirror each day without sucking on the business end of a Glock. My feeling is that if you're a dev who chose to work with/for a known bigot, and the backlash costs you money or your job, tough shit. You made that choice, you took that money, you did that work, you live with the consequences.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
It's silly.

Look... people want to be able to play their stupid videogame and not feel like shit because, guess what, it's the year 2020 and life sucks and it's hard to find things to escape to as is. I get it. So fucking do it. Don't post about the game, don't defend it, don't go out on a limb and tell everyone how you'll donate an equal amount to a charity: just do whatever the hell you want.

But don't expect people in the community to pat you on the back and say "it's okay, you can haz ur wizards!" That's shitty. It's a slap in the face to people who really care about these issues, and if you want to put a flag down in the ground and yell "Here an ally stands!" to everyone else in the community, you're going to have to, y'know, take the *bare-minimum* steps to accomplish that without getting a bit of side-eye.

Trying to fool people here into believing that you're in it for the altruism associated with keeping devs in business in triple-A studios is just plainly offensive. It's completely transparent. You only *think* it will work because Era has a soft spot -- too soft, in my opinion -- for developers. Most of us are way, way too old to be fooled into thinking that that is anything but a quick twist to throw the SJWs off the scent because it's, oh, intersectional. Well, trans people aren't stupid, and they'll been dealing with this stuff for a long time, so you're just not going to be able to fool them, or the people who take their problems seriously.

So don't even try! Go get, like, super excited about it, and go buy it on DAY ONE!!!1111. But do not come into threads dealing with sensitive issues and blame trans people implicitly for selfishness because, oh, DUH, they're not *thinking* about the developers needs. It's an excuse, it's a shitty and *harmful* excuse, and it doesn't even work.

Devs will be just as fine as anyone else is in the year 2020, okay? In fact, they will probably be *more fine* than most people in 2020. (Programmer here, but not a videogame programmer professionally)
 

construct

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Jun 5, 2020
7,969
東京
Not a game dev but similar position.

If the company I work for does something stupid, please hold them accountable. That is what brings change.
 
Nov 16, 2017
1,740
The Harry Potter game from Avalanche looks great to me. I don't need to justify my purchasing decision for anyone. I feel offended that you not only seem to think that I should be able to justify my purchasing decision with a political line of defense, but that you additionally are offended by a very reasonable example of such a defense. I buy a lot of indie games on Steam, but I think I will skip your game.
Stand on your principles! Hurt his sales!

All of Era proceeds to look at this game.

On topic, I think this is a really informative thread. There may be limited instances of ethical consumption in the video game industry, so I'm trying to do the least harm in my purchasing decisions. It is enlightening to hear from ground floor devs on the topic.