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A.B.I.torial 14: Injustice 2's Animation ALSO SUCKS
- Thread starter lupianwolf
- Start date
User Warned: Personal Attacks
Nah, I am not interested arguing with brick wall any longer.
I have said what I wanted, and you might continue on your marry useless ways.
Nah, it would be a much better place for you, since you love shilling yourself.
Also, need I remind how you was OK with Capcom rootkit thing?
I am pretty sure, it's much worse than any animations.
If it was up to some people Wonder Woman would still look like this.
I'd still love to know how that model even got ok'd. Everything about it looks awful.
Honestly all these posts talking about how people criticizing it are "shilling" someone else and being "salty" about the game just because it has critical acclaim says a lot more about the people trying to defend these animations than the ones criticizing them.
Well I guess if there was ever any proof that people trying to defend the animations don't actually care for the concept of constructive critique or actually care to argue in good faith then finally getting this straw man argument is it.
Well I guess if there was ever any proof that people trying to defend the animations don't actually care for the concept of constructive critique or actually care to argue in good faith then finally getting this straw man argument is it.
Let me throw a bone. After watching videos he makes his point clear and valid, its open for debate but I would not agree with it being objectively bad.
I watch sometimes Eric Martin streams(great guy and artist) who have experience in art and A.B.I friend. I asked his opinion on A.B.I videos on NRS animation to which he replied that he does not agree with him, his issues are understandable but he most likely have problems with NRS art or style direction than animation, he puts hand drawn animation above all so A.B.I. opinion on NRS maybe a bit too bias (dont remember direct quote sorry).
I watch sometimes Eric Martin streams(great guy and artist) who have experience in art and A.B.I friend. I asked his opinion on A.B.I videos on NRS animation to which he replied that he does not agree with him, his issues are understandable but he most likely have problems with NRS art or style direction than animation, he puts hand drawn animation above all so A.B.I. opinion on NRS maybe a bit too bias (dont remember direct quote sorry).
In looking at the animations posted in this thread and the OP's video, I am baffled at how this could be your take-away.
Because, I care more about pace of gameplay, rather how beautiful it is.
Generally, I don't notice animation in fighting games - I "feel" the pacing and that's it.
On the other hand, I still find some of the old fighting games pretty good looking, even they don't have realistic or good animation.
Not really.
Animation is something that you see.
How game controls is a different thing altogether.
If I understand right, people here complain about purely visual aspect, not how the game feels when you control character.
Again, animation is directly tied to how the game feels. A fighting game feels good when it has the proper animation, effects, etc. Are you seriously saying visual feedback isn't a thing?
I don't have problems with visual feedback in MK.
When I say how the game feels, I mean in terms of weight / speed of characters and pacing of battle. Purely tactile feelings.
Quality of animation is definitely at least partially subjective, so the way MK and IJ games look is going to bother some people more than others. However, some parts of the animation are objectively not very well done. Literally anyone would tell you that a running animation where a character's feet don't even leave the ground has issues.
lol just stop while you're ahead. You're not doing yourself any favours.
This is nice to know, but it doesn't really seem to pertain to the issue of animation that the most of these videos touched upon. Out of the 5 or so videos of his I only recall two or three instances of him criticizing the art direction directly (i.e. Starfire's hair, Erron Black's guns), and they were used in the context of how they don't help sell the already poor animation. It also doesn't help that he used examples from both other 3D games and hand-drawn games to elaborate on his points, so I'm not really seeing how any personal bias plays a big part in his base argument.
Were you surprised by the other professional artist visiting this thread and agreeing with the videos, or the lambasting of IJ2 by someone who formerly worked with the franchise?
And will you ever get around to picking out those examples of "great" animation from jett's SFV post so we can start pinpointing your specific issues or are you only here to agree with things that validate a pre-determined opinion?
Another professional said that the animations are "passable" and that A.B.I.'s video might be biased by his own personal tastes.
I already did it.
As other have mentioned, the only prejudices here is A.B.I.'s with art styles that don't fit his tastes, and people that want to jump the wagon because it makes them feel cool.
I really have no idea how "art style" even came up for debate when the video and everyone else in this thread are clearly criticizing the animation.
So it's the self-validation instead of discussion option then. I'll bow out here.
Somebody call squaidatab, we have to go beyond their beyond.
This has been a real trip, ladies and gentlemen, at once majestic and horrifying. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Great videos, amazing thread.
If it was up to some people Wonder Woman would still look like this.
"What? What? It's fine, I don't know what your issue is. Salty it doesn't look like one of your Japanese animes?"
Blazblue and KOF13 don't use 3D models. They use HD sprites.
It's not vieled bashing. It's criticisim. He can't understand how a game like Injustice 2 can have animation that's so bad.
...really? The thing is, animation is supposed to showcase what the attack is. If it looks like that, it's not doing a good job.
Looks like a fast kick to me. One being performed in way that might not be the best for a normal person, but I could perfectly believe this character would be able to do. Her whole body even shifts in response to the movement, so I don't think it looks bad. I understand that you don't like it, however.
You're objectively wrong. That kick is animated horrendously and has no basis in real physics - if her whole body shifted to one side her ankle would break and no force would be felt with that "kick". I know you like the game but sometimes you have to admit the truth to yourself and see the reality.
The animation process for the sprites go as
1) Concept and key animation frames
2) 3D Model to create animations smoothly
3) 3D model is used as the frame to trace images to create HD 2D frames
4) Shadows and depth applied
5) final HD sprite
the same process for KOF13
http://kofaniv.snk-corp.co.jp/english/info/15th_anniv/2d_dot/creation/index.php
It's a more modern and streamlined process of creating HD spritework
The whole point of this is that it's easier for the animators to create fluid, more detailed sprites that can convey each characters personality through it's animations. (something that MK games lack since most of the animations are universal to every character) unlike say most other fighting games that actually animate uniquely for every attack or hit.
Noel has 3-4 different animations for getting hit or knocked down.
Ironically in that very link they describe that process taking many times longer than just doing traditional animation, and it's in all likelihood the reason they stopped doing 2D graphics. Though in their case it was probably also thanks to the insane level of detail they went for on all the sprites.
People can subjectively like or dislike it, but it's still objectively bad.
Specifically, how much someone subjectively likes it is inversely proportional to their exposure to and understanding of objectively good animation.
The animation process for the sprites go as
1) Concept and key animation frames
2) 3D Model to create animations smoothly
3) 3D model is used as the frame to trace images to create HD 2D frames
4) Shadows and depth applied
5) final HD sprite
the same process for KOF13
http://kofaniv.snk-corp.co.jp/english/info/15th_anniv/2d_dot/creation/index.php
It's a more modern and streamlined process of creating HD spritework
The whole point of this is that it's easier for the animators to create fluid, more detailed sprites that can convey each characters personality through it's animations. (something that MK games lack since most of the animations are universal to every character) unlike say most other fighting games that actually animate uniquely for every attack or hit.
Noel has 3-4 different animations for getting hit or knocked down.
It's the fact they drew the key poses first.
NRS just does manual posing and also isn't very good at key posing. There are several animations that are taken from existing sources that actually look very good ( superman's back 2 1 for instance ). The problem is the vast majority is still manually posed by people not very good at this. The jumps and aerial attacks are the worst.
Dbfz has a ton of universal animations and it didn't stop people from thinking it looked great.
I know people want it changed, but it'd be really sad to loose that last bit of 90's Midway when they drop the goofy fighting stances, and attacks.
I mean people do realize that a lot those bad animations are a nod to the old games?
I like how the kick looks, I've made this point over and over. What I don't understand is why you need to have your preference be some kind of objective truth to my preference having to be some sort of objective falsehood. I don't get why every move needs to necessarily be humanly possible (and this one move in particular simply looks hard to perform, not impossible) or why you are arguing about how strong is the ankle on this fictional character. I would understand people saying it looked wrong if her body didn't move at all while doing the kick but it does. I would understand if her limbs looked out of proportion during the kick but they don't. I would agree about it looking too weak if that was supposed to be her heavy kick or her sweep but it isn't. Stop trying to misrepresent my opinion and my point, and stop pretending I'm confusing my liking of the game for my opinion on this particular piece of animation.
Also, it's the weekend, and I just tried to do it. I'm not using high heels, but it's perfectly possible to do the move (not as quick as in-game of course, but it can be done repeatedly). It puts some strain on the thigh mainly, my ankle is just fine. Not sure how effective it would be with me performing, but it's probably not a big deal for someone with superhuman abilities.
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Gravity still applies on earth, i assume ?
Wait ... what i meant to say was "i wanna see the receipts"
Ps: if you did the move ,then some part of your body moved to compensate because that's how the human body work
So you are telling me that you crouched, with the your weight centered between your legs, lifted the one leg, without shifting your balance, and didn't fall on your ass? Receipts are desperately needed here.
Her whole body moves with the kick, it's really not that different if you try it yourself, unless you're severely overweight or something (I know I'm slightly over my ideal weight).
You could always try it yourself. This really isn't some sort of daring feat, it's just a crouching kick. It's not like that will (nor should it) sway people's opinions of the animation anyway, it's just that there's a whole lot of bs hyperbole in saying that someone would break an ankle or straight-up fall on their asses if they ever attempted something similar to it.
Its not about being realistic. You can have a lot of great unrealistic animation and you can have bad realistic animation.
In the same vein, "gameplay focused" animation SHOULD be good animation. Saying that the animation is this way because of gameplay implies that every "gameplay focused" game has bad animation. Which is absolutely not the case.
Good animation enhances game feel, and i can guarantee you 100% that if they make a real effort to improve their animation, it will improve the gameplay in their games.
You do understand that gameplay can be different from game to game and that what fits one game might not fit the other?
Animation in MK / Inj made for the purpose of the MK / Inj gameplay. They won't fit into any other fighting game and other fighting game animations won't fit into MK. They are different for the sake of pacing and speed.
The defense over the crouching kick is ridiculous. I'm not the healthiest person, but trying to replicate what she did, while possible, was just plain uncomfortable. Doing it from a natural position (from many of the gifs of other fighting games posted here) allowed me to generate signifigantly more force with the kick.
And no, Kitana being a ten thousand year old warrior or whatever doesn't change anything. A kick from more of a kneeling position would be more powerful, more comfortable, and and just not be as awkward to look at.
And no, Kitana being a ten thousand year old warrior or whatever doesn't change anything. A kick from more of a kneeling position would be more powerful, more comfortable, and and just not be as awkward to look at.
Well first time checking the video. I always thought there was something that bothered me about how NRS animates ever since I tried the MK2011 demo, but was more impressed from the presentations (graphics and UI). Looking at the I2 video and the character-specific ones, dear lord the animation just looks awful!
And holy cow! I don't remember the I1 Wonder Woman model having a neck like that and I always used that costume a lot (if only because, it's the only one where it's all leotard and bare legs). I just... I can't....
Indeed, just about every fighting game is animated way better (say what you will about the misfortunes of MvCI and year 1 of SFV). Tekken, Skullgirls, KOF (including XIV), DOA, GG. I can go on with every company that manages to succeed in animating.
And holy cow! I don't remember the I1 Wonder Woman model having a neck like that and I always used that costume a lot (if only because, it's the only one where it's all leotard and bare legs). I just... I can't....
Indeed, just about every fighting game is animated way better (say what you will about the misfortunes of MvCI and year 1 of SFV). Tekken, Skullgirls, KOF (including XIV), DOA, GG. I can go on with every company that manages to succeed in animating.
How is the gameplay improved by the poses not showing proper character weight?
The animations have always been awful and the lack of hitstop creates a void of impact and highlights how stiff the game actually is. If Neatherrealm wanted to, they could work on their keyframes, but what's the point when these games die competitively in months.