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Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
So you're saying posts like that objectifying men are OK?

I'm saying it's not the same, and suggesting that it is, is in fact sexist. You know, what this thread is about. You could perhaps try to acknowledge the historic differences between what men and women have had to endure in this thread if nothing else.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
They're grouped together because these are all biases that women have to face every day of our lives. You can't act like "They're all unwarranted" while essentially arguing that we shouldn't talk about issues that don't meet your personal level of severity. Or that by talking about these issues at the same time, that people are being dishonest and "Not helpful to the cause."

There seriously is not a faster way for someone to make me roll my eyes but to be completely unaffected by the issues at hand while chastising others for not talking about the issues in the way that you like.
My apologies for a second reply but there are other points here I object to and since this his involved other posters I'd like clarify.

Regarding the bolded: I said I didn't think the headline and the particular statistical analysis used within it were helpful - in the sense that I think there are better ways to present the argument, which is an important argument that deserves to be presented as effectively as possible.

That's not the same at all as saying we (or the study/report) shouldn't discuss other forms of bias and I wasn't trying to imply that.
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
You can see some interesting patterns if you take the detailed data in Excel format and colourise it from red (100) to white (50) to green (0) or the reverse for the no-bias values. Educational biases are almost all green (and a lot of it dark green). Economic is a long way behind, closely followed by political, with physical the most red (and deeply red).
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Yes... she's perfectly aware it shouldn't be welcome or acceptable, having to spend every day being exposed to sexists posts as a woman. She was explaining what an uphill battle is to moderate this forum, particularly as a woman. We've had female staff trolled and laughed at for trying to clamp down on such behaviour, but that doesn't mean we're going to stop. It just means this isn't something that will be fixed overnight. The issue is a societal one, and it's reflected in the behaviour here. Even if many posters here see themselves as progressive, they blind to their biases and prejudices.

You say you're not mansplaining, but yeah, your behaviour was aggressive and condescending. She's fully aware of how bad that all is, she has to work to combat it daily despite the behaviour specifically targeting her as a woman.That makes it doubly tiring, but she still does it. So please be mindful of that.

The level of exasperation I felt in Morrigan's post made me feel angry and frustrated because I don't think a mod - let alone a voluntary one - should have to deal with anything close to the amount of shit that appears to occur on this forum.

Whether I'm blind to it or just don't visit the most toxic threads, I don't know - by all means tell me if I'm blind - but it came as a surprise to me that there are people here that feel free to complain about bans due to sexism. My reaction was genuine anger at those people - certainly not at the mods for not doing a better job at keeping them out, they aren't kintergarten teachers.

I wondered if the moderation on this site wasn't too lenient out of concern for the mods.
Is that also mansplaining?

"How is rudely telling a female moderator how to run a forum to curb sexism mansplaining?"

Truly a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. *shrug*

Read my reply above.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
but it came as a surprise to me that there are people here that feel free to complain about bans due to sexism.

At no point did Morrigan say they aren't banned for it, either. This is a summary of the whole conversation:
- People are sexist in this very forum.
- Why don't you ban them?
- Oh, we do. Doesn't stop people from complaining.
- Why (the fuck) don't you ban the complainers?

Like, shut the hell up already, dude. You're simultaneously showing you don't know shit about how the forum is moderated, assuming to know better, and explaining a woman moderator how to do her job. I literally couldn't think of a more textbook (cartoony even) case of mansplaining if I tried!

I wondered if the moderation on this site wasn't too lenient out of concern for the mods.
Is that also mansplaining?

Yes! For fuck's sake! Get a modicum of self-awareness already!
 

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,657
The level of exasperation I felt in Morrigan's post made me feel angry and frustrated because I don't think a mod - let alone a voluntary one - should have to deal with anything close to the amount of shit that appears to occur on this forum.

Whether I'm blind to it or just don't visit the most toxic threads, I don't know - by all means tell me if I'm blind - but it came as a surprise to me that there are people here that feel free to complain about bans due to sexism. My reaction was genuine anger at those people - certainly not at the mods for not doing a better job at keeping them out, they aren't kintergarten teachers.

I wondered if the moderation on this site wasn't too lenient out of concern for the mods.
Is that also mansplaining?



Read my reply above.

The best thing I would suggest is to make sure you report posts or threads you see that violate the rules. Always helps!
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
At no point did Morrigan say they aren't banned for it, either. This is a summary of the whole conversation:
- People are sexist in this very forum.
- Why don't you ban them?
- Oh, we do. Doesn't stop people from complaining.
- Why (the fuck) don't you ban the complainers?

Like, shut the hell up already, dude. You're simultaneously showing you don't know shit about how the forum is moderated, assuming to know better, and explaining a woman moderator how to do her job. I literally couldn't think of a more textbook (cartoony even) case of mansplaining if I tried!



Yes! For fuck's sake! Get a modicum of self-awareness already!

I'm constantly working on myself. I apologize if the way in which I expressed my frustration rubbed anybody the wrong way, but it was frustration at the problem and not at the people here.

There was never any intention to disrespect anyone and I certainly don't consider it condescending when people ask me detailed questions about stuff they aren't sufficiently aware of, including how I go about doing my job. Sometimes I even learn a thing or two from them and sometimes I have good answers which I communicate clearly rather than expecting others to understand on their own. Sometimes neither of those happens and that's ok too.

Edit: on a personal note, I've been through my fair share of shit due to fairly common circumstances that most people aren't highly aware of, or think they understand when really they don't. I've been misjudged and told I'm wrong about my own life by people who haven't gone through the same things and it sucks. Sometimes I still get angry at such people and when I do I'm usually quickly reminded why getting angry is counterproductive to raising more accurate awareness.
 
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pikachief

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,518
Oh, they are. Won't stop a significant amount of (male) users from bitching that we aren't "fun", though.

the amount of people making fun of the ban for "boys club behavior" the first time I saw that ban was disgusting. I was happy to see the ban and that language and behavior being addressed but the response to it just made me disappointed in this community.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Thanks again to everyone who replied. I've read the replies a couple more times and understand now how I was insensitive. You've helped me improve my awareness and I apologize for the frustration getting through to me caused.
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
Wake me the fuck up when they'll tell me something I don't already painfully fucking know.
Even amongst the most progressive spheres that would proudly brand themselves as feminists, we have to fight against that fucking bias.
 

Aine

Member
May 27, 2019
1,815
That checks out. Much as we like to talk about how "enlightened" we are, we still have a shitton of issues to deal with.
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
And so are 86% of women, apparently


No, that's not it chief. 86% of women have internalized misogyny, and are suffering from an oppression they're not the creator of, but have been conditioned into, and are trying to survive in a society that tells them they're worth shit because of the gender they belong to. They're not benefiting one bit from perpetuating those biases, but men sure do.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
I appreciate this. Thank you!
You're more than welcome!
The last thing I intended was to cause any additional stress. I think my tone didn't come across correctly and it added to the confusion.

why are such posts not dealt with more severely? Asking genuinely.
Oh, they are. Won't stop a significant amount of (male) users from bitching that we aren't "fun", though.
I think we understood each other up until here but then I made a poor choice of words:

Why the fuck does their opinion matter?
The "fuck" here was akin to saying "screw those people who complain when they have no right to".

...What's with the tone? Anyway, I'm just explaining how harmful the more insidious and subtle sexism can be compared to the "overt" one, that's all.

And when you asked about the tone I took it as a genuine question: "what did you mean by that?" rather than "why are you attacking me?" - to which I attempted to reply plainly and politely, with no sarcasm (but I completely understand how my over-politeness came off as passive-agressive condescension).

The tone is to suggest that people bitching about how it's not "fun" to ban others for being sexist maybe shouldn't be welcome on this forum.
The "fun" is in quotes because it's the same "fun" you referred to yourself. I think this added even more to the confusion.

Genuinely not trying to mansplain now and certainly not trying to be condescending. Every word in this post is genuine - I feel like a dumbass and am seeking clarification. Am I still missing the point?
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
As a woman, I already knew this but I always have to remind myself of the figure with regards to women's bias against other women - such figures help me realise how I am affected in my own bias by society and by knowing, allows me to look out for it and improve. I know when I was younger that "not like other girls" shit was really pervasive.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,182
Not surprising in the slightest, but damn still depressing seeing it laid out so clearly. Especially the 30% beating wives bit.
The woman against woman bias especially fucks with me, because it 100% is a thing and most of it is really insidious, internalized misogyny that you won't even realize you have. It's so deeply ingrained, I have no doubt that even a large number of actively feminist women probably suffer from it in some way or another.
I know it's certainly something I've struggled with, and it's really easy to blur lines between trying to think against certain biases and judgments while accidentally leaning into others. :/
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
This is absolutely awful. Especially the bit about domestic violence is alarming.
screenshot2020-03-05a16jqg.png
Sweden really stands out (for the better). Shame other nordic countries aren't on this.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,639
Surprised Oceania is one of the better regions from what i've seen here, but better doesn't mean its in an acceptable state either.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
You can't live in a racist and sexist society without internalizing some of the racism and sexism. That's what is so insidious about racism and sexism. Thinking you're above it definitely doesn't help recognizing your biases.

You're asking ERA to become self-aware?

Noble, but futile imo.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
No, that's not it chief. 86% of women have internalized misogyny, and are suffering from an oppression they're not the creator of, but have been conditioned into, and are trying to survive in a society that tells them they're worth shit because of the gender they belong to. They're not benefiting one bit from perpetuating those biases, but men sure do.

The majority of men don't benefit from the patriarchy either.

The vast majority of men and women would both gain from a more egalitarian and feminist society.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
If anything I'm surprised it's that low. I'll never 100% rid myself preconceptions against women. I do quickly correct myself, but I certainly will catch myself now and then thinking "oh you're a woman and you're into ____? that's cool".
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
No, that's not it chief. 86% of women have internalized misogyny, and are suffering from an oppression they're not the creator of, but have been conditioned into, and are trying to survive in a society that tells them they're worth shit because of the gender they belong to. They're not benefiting one bit from perpetuating those biases, but men sure do.

I don't care for this opinion because it ignores the fact that men and women can both lack the grit or whatever it takes to go against social norms. The reason you gave is not a "woman-only" reason, it's definitely a possibility that the majority of misogynists (from both genders) don't feel like it affects them either way but are just afraid to think too much about it. Meaning they'd rather accept the status quo than argue for change.

Honestly, I'm normally outright hostile when somebody who is disabled, neurodiverse, or a member of a minority/persecuted group says they don't feel that they have the intellectual or emotional capability to have equality so I'm actually really offended when you act like most women just can't rebel against what they're taught to believe.
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,727
Elf Tower, New Mexico
I don't care for this opinion because it ignores the fact that men and women can both lack the grit or whatever it takes to go against social norms. The reason you gave is not a "woman-only" reason, it's definitely a possibility that the majority of misogynists (from both genders) don't feel like it affects them either way but are just afraid to think too much about it. Meaning they'd rather accept the status quo than argue for change.

Honestly, I'm normally outright hostile when somebody who is disabled, neurodiverse, or a member of a minority/persecuted group says they don't feel that they have the intellectual or emotional capability to have equality so I'm actually really offended when you act like most women just can't rebel against what they're taught to believe.

You are talking to women. You can be offended all you want, but this is our lives. I'm 100% a feminist and for womens rights but I still cannot ask a man to do something for me. I still can't say no to a man without experiencing terror.

I've been married 20 years and I still feel horrible and blush if my husband asks what I want in bed.

I am a tomboy but still feel ugly if I leave the house without makeup or shaving my legs.

I'm getting older and a lot of my self worth is vanishing as my looks diminish. I've gained weight due to medication and its destroying me.

I cannot walk alone at night or anywhere really without some degree (high or mild) of alarm and panic because literally anyone could hurt me.

Rape is literally always lurking in the back of our minds.

THIS is what being raised female does to you. I will never, ever shake these feelings. The best I can hope for is to try and raise my daughters so that they experience less than I do.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,182
I don't care for this opinion because it ignores the fact that men and women can both lack the grit or whatever it takes to go against social norms. The reason you gave is not a "woman-only" reason, it's definitely a possibility that the majority of misogynists (from both genders) don't feel like it affects them either way but are just afraid to think too much about it. Meaning they'd rather accept the status quo than argue for change.

Honestly, I'm normally outright hostile when somebody who is disabled, neurodiverse, or a member of a minority/persecuted group says they don't feel that they have the intellectual or emotional capability to have equality so I'm actually really offended when you act like most women just can't rebel against what they're taught to believe.
It's not that easy. Not only are we brought up to believe a certain thing, but at every turn it is repeatedly hammered against us. It's easy to not have general biases -- like believing men and women are equally capable of being great leaders, deserve the same rights, jobs, etc. It's the more subtle things that are much harder to escape, and even if you know better you have to constantly correct yourself.
Simple stuff like automatically associating women in power as bossy or bitchy while not thinking the same or equivalent of a man in that position, thinking women inherently do better as teachers, secretaries, nurses, caregivers, etc, valuing and judging women based on their sex appeal (she looks too slutty, she looks too prudish, she doesn't wear enough makeup, she wears too much, she doesn't smile enough, why doesn't she wear heels, why does she wear heels, etc etc), the list goes on. These, amongst others, are things that I, even as a woman who knows better, constantly hit my head up against because they've been so systematically ingrained into me. There are an endless number of little things we're taught to believe, and rebelling against them isn't always easy, especially when living in a society that can actively punish women trying to go against the grain. There's already been users here describing how they purposely act certain ways (heck, I'm p sure I automatically do it myself without even realizing) to avoid potential trouble - sometimes even dangerous trouble - with men.

Quite literally, you can be a women fundamentally against misogyny and still have thoughts and ideas that you don't even realize are misogynistic in nature because they can be so expertly woven into normalized mentalities. Certainly there are going to be many women who just go along with the norm and even willing participate because it's easier, but just as many women struggle with even trying to help it within themselves to begin with, and more are basically brainwashed from birth to believe these things unquestionably. Every single woman is still inherently a victim of these biases and a victim of internalized misogyny, regardless of whether they knowingly participate in them or not, because they are playing part in a system that fundamentally values and respects men over women and systematically teaches and reinforces those values.

Edit: Also I want to add that, yeah, it is absolutely freaking frustrating as hell seeing another women agree with and play into misogynistic mentalities. I get real angry when I see it cuz it just makes everything all the worse, so I can understand the angle you're trying to come from. But that doesn't negate that they're still victims of internalized misogyny and what Delphine is saying.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
Jotakori, I may seem aggressive in the way I view confidence but I do feel those types of creeping, subtle, shameful biases all the time. I don't think anyone is purely on the right side of the spectrum but I have to push myself and others when I fall in the trap of thinking certain mainstream attitudes can be left alone.

You are talking to women. You can be offended all you want, but this is our lives. I'm 100% a feminist and for womens rights but I still cannot ask a man to do something for me. I still can't say no to a man without experiencing terror.

I've been married 20 years and I still feel horrible and blush if my husband asks what I want in bed.

I am a tomboy but still feel ugly if I leave the house without makeup or shaving my legs.

I'm getting older and a lot of my self worth is vanishing as my looks diminish. I've gained weight due to medication and its destroying me.

I cannot walk alone at night or anywhere really without some degree (high or mild) of alarm and panic because literally anyone could hurt me.

Rape is literally always lurking in the back of our minds.

THIS is what being raised female does to you. I will never, ever shake these feelings. The best I can hope for is to try and raise my daughters so that they experience less than I do.

Yeah that's all normal, I'm not disputing it. Men inherit more power/strength from birth so I don't doubt that any normal interaction can randomly bring a fear of reprisals against you and half the battle is just keeping that fear hidden while pursuing your own goals. Once you stop trying to have the same amount of confidence as your oppressors, that's when I think it's impossible to really have a foundation to build up someone who is in a persecuted group. That's why I was upset at Delphine's post.
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,727
Elf Tower, New Mexico
Jotakori, I may seem aggressive in the way I view confidence but I do feel those types of creeping, subtle, shameful biases all the time. I don't think anyone is purely on the right side of the spectrum but I have to push myself and others when I fall in the trap of thinking certain mainstream attitudes can be left alone.



Yeah that's all normal, I'm not disputing it. Men inherit more power/strength from birth so I don't doubt that any normal interaction can randomly bring a fear of reprisals against you and half the battle is just keeping that fear hidden while pursuing your own goals. Once you stop trying to have the same amount of confidence as your oppressors, that's when I think it's impossible to really have a foundation to build up someone who is in a persecuted group. That's why I was upset at Delphine's post.
I don't think you are understanding what we are saying, and its kinds coming across as you trying to explain our own oppression to us.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,182
Jotakori, I may seem aggressive in the way I view confidence but I do feel those types of creeping, subtle, shameful biases all the time. I don't think anyone is purely on the right side of the spectrum but I have to push myself and others when I fall in the trap of thinking certain mainstream attitudes can be left alone.



Yeah that's all normal, I'm not disputing it. Men inherit more power/strength from birth so I don't doubt that any normal interaction can randomly bring a fear of reprisals against you and half the battle is just keeping that fear hidden while pursuing your own goals. Once you stop trying to have the same amount of confidence as your oppressors, that's when I think it's impossible to really have a foundation to build up someone who is in a persecuted group. That's why I was upset at Delphine's post.
We're not trying to argue that those attitudes should be left alone or excused -- addressing internal misogyny or whatever other kind of natural biases is an extremely important part of learning to unlearn them, and I think that's part of what you're trying to say and with that I agree. But I have to also agree with Fiction here that's it's coming off a bit like you're trying to speak over women. You have three of us talking from their own genuine experiences and we're telling you that you don't need to be offended on our behalf because we "act like most women just can't rebel against what they're taught to believe." It's just not as simple as you're trying to lay it out as. It's an uphill battle for the best, most vigilant of us. We know what we're talking about, we live it every day.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
I don't think you are understanding what we are saying, and its kinds coming across as you trying to explain our own oppression to us.
Yeah, I might be doing that actually. I'm trying to focus on my own experience/feelings/etc and how they overlap with how women like you all feel but I definitely come across as trying to have some authority. I'm sorry for that, I honestly have no excuse for that tangent.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
"While in many countries these biases are shrinking, in many others the biases are actually sliding back. If you take the overall average of the information we have, we show that on average we are sliding back – that biases, instead of shrinking, are growing back."

Just noticed this paragraph in the guardian's report. Depressing shit. Is this an indication that education may be failing? If that's the case are there different approaches we can try?

I'm an educator myself and we spend a lot of effort trying to come up with more ideas to increase girl participation in class. I had my fifth graders sit so that boys were in the back and girls upfront since the boys tended to misbehave and the girls were too shy. It certainly helped but wasn't enough.
 
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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I don't care for this opinion because it ignores the fact that men and women can both lack the grit or whatever it takes to go against social norms.

To go "against social norms" you first have to realize these norms are wrong; you need a moral frame of reference outside the society that has raised you. Without that external frame of reference, everything you grew up with does not seem like ideology; it seems like how things actually are. That's the insidious nature of societal conditioning: to a member of society, it doesn't feel progressive or regressive, it feels "normal".

This is why feminist theory is so important: it provides a different frame of reference to what patriarchal societies teach you as "normal" from literally second one after your birth. But most people in the world, both men and women, either aren't exposed to feminism theory, or instinctively dismiss it as a fringe or delusional ideology, as one does when confronted with something that tells you what you believed until now, what was taught by your loving parents, is wrong. It's only when feminism gains visibility and acceptance that people become more receptive to it; this is simple psychology 101.

In this sense, faulting women for not fighting harder to battle sexism, when they themselves are conditioned by society as the human beings and products of that society they are, is frankly unsympathetic at best, callous at worst. There are no Tablets of Stone with the absolute commandments and truths of Feminism written on them; we're all still figuring this out, and we'll probably keep discovering for decades new stuff we didn't realize was sexist, because, again, it was "normal".

Circling back to the thought that 90% of men are trash... the counterintuitive consequence of the above is that, to some extent, being sexist in a sexist society is being a product of that society. Which, again, is why fighting sexist social constructs, practices and teachings is much more productive in the long run than fighting specific sexist people.

You are talking to women. You can be offended all you want, but this is our lives. I'm 100% a feminist and for womens rights but I still cannot ask a man to do something for me. I still can't say no to a man without experiencing terror.

I've been married 20 years and I still feel horrible and blush if my husband asks what I want in bed.

I am a tomboy but still feel ugly if I leave the house without makeup or shaving my legs.

I'm getting older and a lot of my self worth is vanishing as my looks diminish. I've gained weight due to medication and its destroying me.

I cannot walk alone at night or anywhere really without some degree (high or mild) of alarm and panic because literally anyone could hurt me.

Rape is literally always lurking in the back of our minds.

THIS is what being raised female does to you. I will never, ever shake these feelings. The best I can hope for is to try and raise my daughters so that they experience less than I do.

Excellent post, thank you so much for sharing. As a guy I always appreciate being made aware of all of these things because, again, society makes sure they're invisible to us. I also wanted to extend a virtual hug because you're one of my favorite posters; hang in there. :/
 
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