• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,123
The sad thing is that this argument also applies to Twintelle when it gets down to it.
It most certainly does not.

1. Look up the nations with French as the official language.
2. Look up the history of post-WW2 black soldiers and France.
3. Skin tone solidly in the darker range.
4. White, (not grey or silver, white) hair.

Despite her white voice actress, Twintelle is heavily coded black both in anime terms and in historical relevance of her characteristics.

Elma, on the other hand...
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,366
Canada
My personal primary issue with Elma wrt this conversation in particular is: What makes her black?

Like ambiguous person of color (ignoring her alien origin and what she really looks like), sure. But even by anime standards she's not coded 'Black', she's coded 'Exotic'. I ain't gonna stop anyone from claiming her, but there's nothing that makes her a black character as far as I can see.

I can definitely get behind that. Hmm. But in the interest of a sci-fi/fantasy story, how does that work if character's background culture isn't really a significant part of their story or the story being told? There isn't really much coding for other nationalities in Xenoblade X besides ""L.A."" (which is more pastiche of the place than the real thing) and (big surprise) Japanese elements (specifically vague Samurai coding for the game's combat). (Sorry if it feels argumentative, I genuinely want this kind of perspective -- but I've definitely already written Elma's situation as dubious and very poorly handled despite the rest I like about her. You mentioning she's treated as "exotic" is definitely another strike).


Oh man I'd have loved Nintendo taking Kat from under Sony. Sony clearly gives no shits about its many mascots, at least nintendo might have.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,123
"People like me". As if I have some vendetta against black representation in video games.
People like you ready to offer up corporate apologia like it's some kind of immutable fact of nature and not a matter of choices being made.

I can definitely get behind that. Hmm. But in the interest of a sci-fi/fantasy story, how does that work if character's background culture isn't really a significant part of their story or the story being told? There isn't really much coding for other nationalities in Xenoblade X besides ""L.A."" (which is more pastiche of the place than the real thing) and (big surprise) Japanese elements (specifically vague Samurai coding for the game's combat). (Sorry if it feels argumentative, I genuinely want this kind of perspective -- but I've definitely already written Elma's situation as dubious and very poorly handled despite the rest I like about her. You mentioning she's treated as "exotic" is definitely another strike).

To quote myself:

Eh. You're going too far in that last bit. You can tell the difference between characters meant to be various ethnicities. That's what I mean by shorthand.

Generally (not universally but generally), you cN tell a character meant to be black in anime by their hair color (purple, reddish-brown, yellow-blonde, or white. Not grey or silver, white). Eye color will generally be brown, bright blue, or yellow. Skin tone will be on the darker end of medium brown or darker.

"Exotic" is generally light brown or pale white skin, cloudy eye color, silver hair.

White folks have pale blonde or red hair, blue eyes, and pronounced noses.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,577
Bro what are you even trying to say here?

But to answer your question:

Doom
Resident Evil 3 Nemesis
Streets of Rage 4
GTA San Andreas
God of War 4
Yakuza 0
Resident Evil 4
Gravity Rush 2
Street Fighter 3 3S
Quake

This is a list that I made of the top of my head of the games I replayed many times and are favorites of mine and around half of then have a black main character (4 if not factoring in SF)
Honestly this list makes me sad and angry at the same time.

Of these only Streets of Rage 4 and San Andreas have unambiguous black leads.

The rest have black supporting characters that you KNOW the company who owns the property would never have be the series rep over the very white/fair skinned main characters. I don't know who the black character in Resident Evil 4 you're thinking of is, but you think Capcom would have that character be the series rep over Leon? Street Fighter 3? You think Sean is getting in over Chun-Li? Yakuza 0?! Is this list a joke?
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Thing is, no matter how bad it is for representation, it is getting better. Slowly but surely.

It is only Nintendo that can't seem to get better.
Oh man I'd have loved Nintendo taking Kat from under Sony. Sony clearly gives no shits about its many mascots, at least nintendo might have.
I am just hoping that some fellow fan becomes a high employee and green lights a revival

šŸ˜„
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,366
Canada
People like you ready to offer up corporate apologia like it's some kind of immutable fact of nature and not a matter of choices being made.

To quote myself:

While I can appreciate the sorta common contrast in artwork to set up dark skin with light hair colour; these days it drives me nuts as a "go to" design for a lot of them too. I see what you mean, and yeah it's definitely a set up for "mysterious/exotic" types.
 

ngower

Member
Nov 20, 2017
4,022
Do we know the results of the fan poll? Were there any BIPOC characters there that polled highly?
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
Barret is the first character to join your party in FF7 and is there til the end. He carries the entire message of the game as the most diehard eco terrorist and relentless good in humanity. He's basically the most important character after Cloud and Sephiroth, arguably #2 if the last two decades had not gone so crazy celebrating a generic anime villain.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Honestly this list makes me sad and angry at the same time.

Of these only Streets of Rage 4 and San Andreas have unambiguous black leads.

The rest have black supporting characters that you KNOW the company who owns the property would never have be the series rep over the very white/fair skinned main characters. I don't know who the black character in Resident Evil 4 you're thinking of is, but you think Capcom would have that character be the series rep over Leon? Street Fighter 3? You think Sean is getting in over Chun-Li? Yakuza 0?! Is this list a joke?
Uh what?

I never implied RE4 or every game has black main characters, I just listed the games I replayed or played the most.

Reread the post please.

My point is around half of those games have main characters that are black and could be picked. Smash just doesn't want that. No matter how many we list.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,918
While I can appreciate the sorta common contrast in artwork to set up dark skin with light hair colour; these days it drives me nuts as a "go to" design for a lot of them too. I see what you mean, and yeah it's definitely a set up for "mysterious/exotic" types.
Dark skin with white/silver hair as the default for so many fictional characters has become so passƩ. It's pretty, but when you've got such a frequent shorthand for "exotic" characteristics it kind of argues against itself.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Barret is the first character to join your party in FF7 and is there til the end. He carries the entire message of the game as the most diehard eco terrorist and relentless good in humanity. He's basically the most important character after Cloud and Sephiroth, arguably #2 if the last two decades had not gone so crazy celebrating a generic anime villain.
Not to mention, he isn't yet another sword guy.

The man is beloved and deserved a spot.

Sigh
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,577
People like you ready to offer up corporate apologia like it's some kind of immutable fact of nature and not a matter of choices being made.
I'm not apologizing for any corporation. I'm instead wondering why there's a preoccupation with the black representation in this video game that plucks leading characters from various franchises, in an industry bereft of black lead characters. It's as if folks were hoping this party game would be a salve for a massive wound in this industry.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I'm not apologizing for any corporation. I'm instead wondering why there's a preoccupation with the black representation in this video game that plucks leading characters from various franchises, in an industry bereft of black lead characters. It's as if folks were hoping this party game would be a salve for a massive wound in this industry.
There is an issue and there is what is going on with Smash and Nintendo.

Talking about it and giving them shit is the only way to force change. The rest of gaming is changing slowly but surely meanwhile.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,918
As I see it, I believe in the following:

Ultimate could have multiple Black characters, leading protagonists of their games or otherwise. Sakurai and his team are talented and could implement them well.

It still would not be a cure-all for this industry's problems.

Nintendo should still do it anyways.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,667
Do we know the results of the fan poll? Were there any BIPOC characters there that polled highly?

Are you talking about the Smash Ballot? Sakurai revealed that he and Iwata decided not to reveal the results because they didn't want fans harassing companies to allow their characters to join Smash.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,123
I'm not apologizing for any corporation. I'm instead wondering why there's a preoccupation with the black representation in this video game that plucks leading characters from various franchises, in an industry bereft of black lead characters. It's as if folks were hoping this party game would be a salve for a massive wound in this industry.
"I'm not apologizing for any corporation. I'm instead saying levy your grievances at any target but Super Smash Bros in a topic about the anti-blackness of Super Smash Bros, because clearly no one has ever spoken up about the industry overall before. And also you're only allowed to direct your complaints at one target at a time."
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,366
Canada
Nintendo should still do it anyways.

Well said
giphy.gif


#1 - He comes in my room while I'm working (I work from home) and asks if he can ask me a question.
"Sure", I reply, not looking away from my laptop.
"Uncle KJack, why are the villains in anime always Black or dark-skinned?"
I literally almost had a fall out of my chair moment.
"You notice that stuff?!", I asked him.
"Yes, it always seems to be like that in everything I watch."
I've been making a concerted effort to make sure he knows I care about his feelings, so I asked him, "And how does that make you feel?"
"I don't know", he says, his default in difficult situations.
"Take a moment and think about it", I counter, not letting him off the hook.
He comes back pretty quickly, "It makes me really maaaad."
I softly pressed him to go deeper on the "why" but he couldn't articulate it.

#2 - This one is short. I come out of my room and my nephew is using the TV in my lounge area to watch Raising Dion on Netflix.
He pauses it and asks me: "Uncle KJack, why do I like, get into shows better when they have Black people?"
"Because it helps you relate to the character's better."
He looks at me kinda confused and says, "But I don't have superpowers, I can't relate..."
I fix it with, "Yeah but it's easier for you to put yourself in his shoes when he looks like you, dresses like you, talks like you, and likes the same things we do in our culture."

So my thing is, if a 9-year old is this tapped into how we are represented and can voice being emotionally affected by it, who has the right to tell anyone how to feel about Smash Bros passing up people that look like them after nearly 100 chances to throw a bone? It's not that Smash is being focused on to the detriment of other examples, it's that we've never seen such an egregiously exclusionary tale in modern fighting games.

First off, your nephew kicks butt and is clearly insightful even at such a young age.
And it's absolutely as simple as that: representation is important because it feels good and empowering to feel included. I hate that there's a million excuses for why not to include people without realizing it's feeding and reifying the problem in its entirety.
 
Last edited:

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,577
I don't even know what you are on about. We have first party Black characters. Even if you just say they don't have any Black characters that fit your arbitrary restrictions, they could have even made the default Inklings Black, or even have every costume color for them Black.

But they just don't care. It's a Smash issue.
Twintelle was the black Nintendo character with the best shot of making it in. The moment she didn't, I knew we weren't getting any, because there is a dearth of black leads in the industry. And leads make up the majority of third party support. This isn't some "arbitrary restriction" from me, it's an acknowledgement of what went into third party character selection.
 

Dash Kappei

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,842
I think Balrog is popular enough, and I'd love another boxing fighter a la Little Mac but by the time they got into 3rd party characters DLC there was no way it would've got in.

Twintelle was the only black one that could've gotten in and the moments they went with Min Min I knew there were not going to be any black characters stat
 

Str0ngStyle

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,356
Hi, black person here replying.

Yeah, time to give a fuck about another black person replying, because I understand 100% where he's coming from. I get it, people want to jump on Smash because it doesn't have black representation. But why is it impossible to pull the lens back and look at the bigger fucking issue causing this? That's all that is being said here. You're flipping his words to make it seem like he said
"why black characters don't deserve to make the cut" when really he's just giving awareness to a very obvious overarching issue.

Do you not get it or do you just want to view someone that is not our color as the enemy? The viewpoint is valid. We need more black representation in the industry in general! We need to lead our own fucking games that can sit right up there with shit like Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy. That way we can have some legit star characters in Smash and not just some 2nd and 3rd tier options. To me, that's not enough. I want fucking more for us. Excuse me for not settling. I feel like aiming our guns at a crossover star studded fighting game is just a bit off the mark.
Hi. Another black person here.

I just want to chime in with another reason as to why people are so hot at this. people just fucking LOVE to deflect when it comes to racism and the "it's an industry wide problem" while accurate, is an often trotted out excuse to deflect from the specific topic. Like white people going "what about black on black crime in Chicago" while we are actually discussing police killings. Like I cuss people out with the quickness when you try that mess.
 

fhqwhgads

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,535
I would've 100% mained Doc Louis if he was playable, it's been mentioned before but they really did act weird with Echos, hyping them up so much early on and doing surprisingly little with the concept.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,577
Uh what?

I never implied RE4 or every game has black main characters, I just listed the games I replayed or played the most.

Reread the post please.

My point is around half of those games have main characters that are black and could be picked. Smash just doesn't want that. No matter how many we list.
I asked to name your favorite video game that has a black main character.

Why are you talking to me about Resident Evil 4?
Edit: ah I see. You actually just listed your favorite video games, and San Andreas and Streets of Rage 4 have black main characters. Gotcha.
 

XxLeonV

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,140
There is no "2nd tier" when there are none, and the crux of my initial post is that I certainly don't need a non-black person telling me how little they care about the few black characters they see in video games, when it means way more to me to see those characters at all. You and I ranking their importance/stature and others doing it comes with completely different context and hits way differently.

This summer, my 9 year old nephew came from out of town, for the first time, to spend his entire break with me. Beside it being awesome, two moments stuck out and still swim through my mind:

#1 - He comes in my room while I'm working (I work from home) and asks if he can ask me a question.
"Sure", I reply, not looking away from my laptop.
"Uncle KJack, why are the villains in anime always Black or dark-skinned?"
I literally almost had a fall out of my chair moment.
"You notice that stuff?!", I asked him.
"Yes, it always seems to be like that in everything I watch."
I've been making a concerted effort to make sure he knows I care about his feelings, so I asked him, "And how does that make you feel?"
"I don't know", he says, his default in difficult situations.
"Take a moment and think about it", I counter, not letting him off the hook.
He comes back pretty quickly, "It makes me really maaaad."
I softly pressed him to go deeper on the "why" but he couldn't articulate it.

#2 - This one is short. I come out of my room and my nephew is using the TV in my lounge area to watch Raising Dion on Netflix.
He pauses it and asks me: "Uncle KJack, why do I like, get into shows better when they have Black people?"
"Because it helps you relate to the character's better."
He looks at me kinda confused and says, "But I don't have superpowers, I can't relate..."
I fix it with, "Yeah but it's easier for you to put yourself in his shoes when he looks like you, dresses like you, talks like you, and likes the same things we do in our culture."

So my thing is, if a 9-year old is this tapped into how we are represented and can voice being emotionally affected by it, who has the right to tell anyone how to feel about Smash Bros passing up people that look like them after nearly 100 chances to throw a bone? It's not that Smash is being focused on to the detriment of other examples, it's that we've never seen such an egregiously exclusionary tale in modern fighting games.

It's amazing your nephew is catching on to that at such a young age. I have talks like that with my younger brother who is just now seeing it and he's 16. I love to hear it.

I get where you're coming from though. The initial post just came off a bit hostile towards someone who isn't us. I felt it was necessary to speak up since I am of color and I do share a similar viewpoint. if this person was totally against our cause I'd 100% react the same way, but that's not how I perceived it. I feel like they are on our side and just looking at it with a bigger lens. I know he'll never feel like we can about it, because it could never affect him like it could us, but I think its acceptable to share that opinion. I really don't think his intention was to justify any of it, but I can see why it would be taken that way.

I personally do feel the options aren't great. I wouldn't just want anyone in Smash simply because they are black. I'm also not content with them throwing us a bone. I want representation, but I want stronger leads to do that for us. Most of the options being suggested are supporting characters. On top of that, It is extremely hard to name some solid choices that I feel I could even relate to. Sure, we're the same color but what else? Do these characters really represent the culture outside of just simply being the same color skin? We can't be serious about Barrett can we?

There are two black lead characters of recent years that have really made me relate. Neither of them are in gaming, both are in comic and film. Those two are Miles Morales and T'challa. I'd hope we could get strong leads like that in gaming to represent us a crossover title as big as Smash. I'm not against anyone's opinion for wanting other options, but me personally would want stronger representation. There are moments in Black Panther and Enter the Spider-Verse where I'm smiling ear to ear. Can't say that's happened in a video game yet because I haven't been able to relate on that level with any of the supporting characters nor leads.
 
Last edited:

XxLeonV

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,140
Hi. Another black person here.

I just want to chime in with another reason as to why people are so hot at this. people just fucking LOVE to deflect when it comes to racism and the "it's an industry wide problem" while accurate, is an often trotted out excuse to deflect from the specific topic. Like white people going "what about black on black crime in Chicago" while we are actually discussing police killings. Like I cuss people out with the quickness when you try that mess.

Not a deflection or justification, its a very obvious issue and something that would help with the problem we have with Smash. Its just a different look at the situation, stop writing it off as if its something to ignore the topic at hand. If we start with getting stronger black leads in video games, we'd probably have 3-4 characters in Smash already.

White people shouting black on black crime is totally different than calling out a bigger issue in the industry. For one, shouting about black on black crime just comes off hella misinformed. You and I know that whole situation in Chicago is much much deeper than just senseless killings and I don't even want to cover that within this thread.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,542
Twintelle was the black Nintendo character with the best shot of making it in. The moment she didn't, I knew we weren't getting any, because there is a dearth of black leads in the industry. And leads make up the majority of third party support. This isn't some "arbitrary restriction" from me, it's an acknowledgement of what went into third party character selection.
My guy, pirahna plant made it in. No one requested it, it's a completely random character that's never been playable in any medium before added in at the whim of Sakurai and Nintendo. To me, that character's existence really delegitimizes the standard arguments about industry trends, and prioritizing lead popular characters first, etc. How'd that discussion and design take priority before one around visual diversity
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,577
My guy, pirahna plant made it in. No one requested it, it's a completely random character that's never been playable in any medium before added in at the whim of Sakurai and Nintendo. To me, that character's existence really delegitimizes the standard arguments about industry trends, and prioritizing lead popular characters first, etc. How'd that discussion and design take priority before one around visual diversity
Nintendo should have put one of their POC characters in over the plant. I agree. But they have how many black characters that had a realistic shot? Two? That's damning in itself. And then when you look at the larger scope of third party lead characters, it's even worse.

Black representation in games has been a frustration for me my entire life. It's why I have lower interest in any game that doesn't have a character creator, because typically the only way I can have a black lead in a game is if I make them. This is an industry problem, and it's one that has angered me for as long as I can remember. This game is just a reflection of that problem, and I just don't understand how anyone can be angry about Smash representation while also attempting to diminish the larger industry problem that is CLEARLY connected to it.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,577
"I'm not apologizing for any corporation. I'm instead saying levy your grievances at any target but Super Smash Bros in a topic about the anti-blackness of Super Smash Bros, because clearly no one has ever spoken up about the industry overall before. And also you're only allowed to direct your complaints at one target at a time."
I'm not apologizing for a corporation. I'm instead asking you what industry you think Smash Bros. is celebrating.
 

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,210
My personal primary issue with Elma wrt this conversation in particular is: What makes her black?

Like ambiguous person of color (ignoring her alien origin and what she really looks like), sure. But even by anime standards she's not coded 'Black', she's coded 'Exotic'. I ain't gonna stop anyone from claiming her, but there's nothing that makes her a black character as far as I can see.
i'll fucking take her or Marina. Like They don't need to be from Africa, North, or South America, Europe, etc etc. Her pasty alien form could be the result of her Final Smash.
 

Shimuzu

Member
Oct 6, 2020
12
Sure, but I highly doubt we would have got two ARMS reps in the same Season Pass, so if they had to pick only one character, Twintelle should have been a no brainer. There are literally no black characters in the game.
There are also literally no chinese characters in the game. Smash is long overdue for a black character, but I don't know why minmin has to be discredited for this.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,820
If this thread is anything to go by, it's a good thing someone like Barret or Mr. Sandman didn't get in because if they did this forum would be perpetually pissed off at a "secondary character" making it in the game.

People, who cares? Who cares if Shinobu isn't the main character of No More Heroes?

Who cares if Marina isn't "recognizable"? Were the Ice Climbers recognizable?

Who cares if using secondary characters isn't ideal? Lots of this games decisions aren't ideal.


Can you honestly say with a straight face that if any of these characters got into Smash that Smash Bros would be a worse game?

If the answer is no then why argue against it? Why be so opposed to these characters being in the game if you can admit it wouldn't make the game worse? Why are you trying to larp as if you're Masahiro Sakurai? Is it some weird defense of him? Because he definitely doesn't need it.


I feel like people are more concerned with trying to prove Sakurai isn't some secret racist that they've created this weird mental space where Smash Bros cannot under any circumstance have a secondary black character in it or else time, space and all matter will converge into an apocalypse.
 

thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
If this thread is anything to go by, it's a good thing someone like Barret or Mr. Sandman didn't get in because if they did this forum would be perpetually pissed off at a "secondary character" making it in the game.

People, who cares? Who cares if Shinobu isn't the main character of No More Heroes?

Who cares if Marina isn't "recognizable"? Were the Ice Climbers recognizable?

Who cares if using secondary characters isn't ideal? Lots of this games decisions aren't ideal.


Can you honestly say with a straight face that if any of these characters got into Smash that Smash Bros would be a worse game?

If the answer is no then why argue against it? Why be so opposed to these characters being in the game if you can admit it wouldn't make the game worse? Why are you trying to larp as if you're Masahiro Sakurai? Is it some weird defense of him? Because he definitely doesn't need it.


I feel like people are more concerned with trying to prove Sakurai isn't some secret racist that they've created this weird mental space where Smash Bros cannot under any circumstance have a secondary black character in it or else time, space and all matter will converge into an apocalypse.

White people get to be whatever whenever. Minorities need a polished resume to exist.
 

XxLeonV

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,140
If this thread is anything to go by, it's a good thing someone like Barret or Mr. Sandman didn't get in because if they did this forum would be perpetually pissed off at a "secondary character" making it in the game.

People, who cares? Who cares if Shinobu isn't the main character of No More Heroes?

Who cares if Marina isn't "recognizable"? Were the Ice Climbers recognizable?

Who cares if using secondary characters isn't ideal? Lots of this games decisions aren't ideal.


Can you honestly say with a straight face that if any of these characters got into Smash that Smash Bros would be a worse game?

If the answer is no then why argue against it? Why be so opposed to these characters being in the game if you can admit it wouldn't make the game worse? Why are you trying to larp as if you're Masahiro Sakurai? Is it some weird defense of him? Because he definitely doesn't need it.


I feel like people are more concerned with trying to prove Sakurai isn't some secret racist that they've created this weird mental space where Smash Bros cannot under any circumstance have a secondary black character in it or else time, space and all matter will converge into an apocalypse.

I doubt any one of us calling it a "bigger industry issue" are against PoC supporting characters being added to Smash. A ton of people continue to misinterpret what we are trying to convey.

I personally am simply saying I want better black leads for representation in the game. We can settle on the mid tier options we have, but we can't ignore the bigger issue we need to tackle. It won't make the game any worse. It would for sure be better but I'm just aiming for a bit more rather than the bare minimum.

Just because the views don't align 1:1 with others, doesn't mean we're against it.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,820
I doubt any one of us calling it a "bigger industry issue" are against PoC supporting characters being added to Smash. A ton of people continue to misinterpret what we are trying to convey.

I personally am simply saying I want better black leads for representation in the game. We can settle on the mid tier options we have, but we can't ignore the bigger issue we need to tackle. It won't make the game any worse. It would for sure be better but I'm just aiming for a bit more rather than the bare minimum.

Just because the views don't align 1:1 with others, doesn't mean we're against it.


But like, and forgive me if I've completely misread this thread. But nobody was saying or implying that video games didn't need more black leads nor that the bare minimum was enough.

I don't see how you could read the OP and come out of it thinking that OP is saying "VIDEO GAMES SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE BLACK LEADS!!!!"

If nobody is saying that then I don't think people need to go so far into pointing it out as if we don't already know all that.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,163
Goddamn I am glad movies and tv isn't as bad as games or accepted by fans. Going by the vibe in this thread no negro can pass the high standards set by a monster plant. We would not have no BLack Panther, Into The Spiderverse, movies nor a Sam Wilson show. The old saying "Twice as hard, half as much" does not apply to games. More like " 6 times has hard, and you still ain't koopa troopa level"
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,918
Neoxon has banged the drum for a more diverse industry in multiple threads (please refer back to their Black History Month thread) and made this specific thread to talk about specific issues of a specific franchise/company.

I want more diverse leads so Smash doesn't have to exclusively do runarounds and double-dips to bolster its ranks. But that doesn't make the Mr. Sandmans or Twintelles of the world any less valid. If people want them, they want them. I'm not going to try and do a psychological deep-dive to parse their "agenda" for wanting POC's, no more than anyone should be using "their fans are perverts" as a means to shut down proponents of female characters (I'm guilty of the latter mindset, and I'm trying to correct that).

So, until we get more leads of color (and Nintendo will get there sooner or later if EPD has anything to say about it), I'd advise we be a little more lenient for supporting players. We've already "bent the rules" for a litany of B-listers, and they're all worthy of being in the game. Which means the B-listers not yet in are also worthy of being in the game.
 
Last edited:

AranPrime

Banned
Sep 25, 2021
279
User Banned (2 Weeks): Whataboutism with regards to Black representation; Account in Junior Phase
There's also no Hispanic, no South Asian and no Middle Eastern. Almost as if the issue isn't that it's anti-black as much as it's a game by Japanese people focused mostly on characters by other Japanese people and therefore most people are light skinned. Still would have preferred Twintelle since her design is so great.
 

XxLeonV

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,140
But like, and forgive me if I've completely misread this thread. But nobody was saying or implying that video games didn't need more black leads nor that the bare minimum was enough.

I don't see how you could read the OP and come out of it thinking that OP is saying "VIDEO GAMES SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE BLACK LEADS!!!!"

If nobody is saying that then I don't think people need to go so far into pointing it out as if we don't already know all that.

Stop putting words in people's mouth. Nobody thought or said that.

We read the OP and came out thinking "this is a bigger issue than just Smash". I mean we've only said that multiple times at this point. Its stupid that people called it deflecting even after we outright acknowledged the issue presented in the OP. To deflect is to deviate from purpose, not at one point did we do that. We are still supporting the purpose! We only gave our opinion on the bigger overarching issue which funnels right into the OPs complaint. Nothing is wrong with speaking to that.

Rallying for more black leads would fix a number of issues, including this exact one we're speaking about. Nothing wrong with us sharing that opinion. Not at one point have I said its wrong to put in supporting characters who are black but everywhere I turn someone is telling me its wrong to bring up the bigger industry issue in this thread. Just because I want better black leads in the industry, and want those leads to rep us in Smash, doesn't mean I'm against black supporting characters being added in! Hell, add them supporting characters in, but gah damn it the industry needs to give us some strong leads too!
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,820
Never said they were, just wanted to show how both of their absence is illustrative of the actual reason why.
Well then let me say that saying the problem is that Japanese people are developing it is a little disengenious. Because I assure you there are black, hispanic and middle eastern characters made by Japanese people for games developed by Japanese people so that doesn't seem like much of an excuse.
 

AranPrime

Banned
Sep 25, 2021
279
Well then let me say that saying the problem is that Japanese people are developing it is a little disengenious. Because I assure you there are black, hispanic and middle eastern characters made by Japanese people for games developed by Japanese people so that doesn't seem like much of an excuse.
I'll midly agree when it comes to there being black characters created in Japan that I think would classify as iconic. The problem is they're few and that they're overshadowed by other characters in their respective game. Barret would be an example of this. As for Hispanic or Middle Eastern, I'm honestly drawing a blank as to who you're talking about.
 

XxLeonV

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,140
There's also no Hispanic, no South Asian and no Middle Eastern. Almost as if the issue isn't that it's anti-black as much as it's a game by Japanese people focused mostly on characters by other Japanese people and therefore most people are light skinned. Still would have preferred Twintelle since her design is so great.

Another overarching issue that's not being spoken about.
 

AranPrime

Banned
Sep 25, 2021
279
Another overarching issue that's not being spoken about.
Issue isn't the word I would use. This is simply a result of the circumstances behind the creation of these games. Rather than holding your breath for a Japanese game to have a minority as a playable character, you should shift your aim towards where minorities actually have a non-insignificant voice behind the development of games, AKA North and South America, Europe, Australia and Africa. Focus where the well is full rather than where it's dried.