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Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,462
San Francisco
Didn't post this thread yesterday because it was a good day worth celebrating, but this has been at the back of my mind the entire time.

TL:RD said:
Trump is a symptom not the source. How do we now fight against the growing wave of conspiracy and anti-intellectualism that lead to an obvious conman getting 71 million votes after 4 years of that, and how do we do it before a more competent version of Trump appears?

After 4 years of absolute failure, not delivering on any campaign promise, failing to aid in any disaster whether fire, hurricane, civil unrest, or pandemic, after an absolute endless stream of scandals, evidence of corruption, and speech after speech of unintelligible rambling the pyrite gilded reality TV con man still got 71,000,000 votes.

In theory if he had only been slightly more competent or anyone on his immediate team more competent he would have won.

The right thrives on disinformation designed to feed off fear. It has been their lifeblood from radio to Fox and has evolved into the conspiratorial zeitgeist that is the social media landscape.

It's still growing.

The left has been battling itself and getting in fights over which policies to push, which tweaks of wording will eek out that sliver of margin we need to win meanwhile the right's tried and true dogwhistle talking points imploded on the 2016 campaign trail to evolve into a raving personification of flat earth youtube videos. The right doesn't seem to have control of their own party anymore. It became self sustaining and they are along for the ride. Now, no matter who or what the left puts up the assumption is they are child penal gland eating communist dictators.

It's the same phenomenon as the growing anti-vax movement. Anti-intellectualism is on the rise and if we keep spending all our energy and fighting to decide which candidate is the most reasonable we will lose the war against anti-reason. To that end, how would you fight that fight? What organizations do you know that have a strategy here? What policy can cure the world of the cult of anti-intellectualism?
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
They will not find someone as 'charismatic' as Trump, other than Trump himself. And by that time who knows the receipts we will have on him.

Also, Facebook needs to change its policies.
 
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OP
Midramble

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,462
San Francisco
They will not find someone as 'charismatic' as Trump, other than Trump himself. And by that time who knows the receipts we will have on him.

Also, Facebook needs to change its policies.

The bolded would be a start. As for the rest, receipts on trump didn't seem to matter. Audio of him saying vile stuff didn't matter. Documents showing his financial corruption and tax avoidance didn't matter. Trump's charisma isn't that hard to replicate. His talking points are just forum troll rehashes. He just says what's on fox or facebook. Trump set a precedent that the only thing required to win is be memeable. What about his run and presidency is hard to replicate?
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
2020 is the only thing that did him in, and even then barely. If the election had been in February, he would've won by a landslide.
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
I think it's pretty meaningless measuring Trump on our normal aspects of success and failure. MAGAs didn't care about campaign promises, jobs, or COVID. They wanted to hurt people to the left of them. That's all they measured anything by. Trump did that so they supported him more.

I think the idea that the right won't find someone like Trump for a while bears repeating too. Just look how Pence flops every time he tries to do the same thing. Trump is that once in a lifetime politician that shows up. No shame or conscience and does anything to win. He's done now so the political landscape is going to look a hell of a lot different almost instantly.
 

PirateKingERA

Member
Aug 22, 2018
3,122
Houston, Texas
I think it's pretty meaningless measuring Trump on our normal aspects of success and failure. MAGAs didn't care about campaign promises, jobs, or COVID. They wanted to hurt people to the left of them. That's all they measured anything by. Trump did that so they supported him more.

I think the idea that the right won't find someone like Trump for a while bears repeating too. Just look how Pence flops every time he tries to do the same thing. Trump is that once in a lifetime politician that shows up. No shame or conscience and does anything to win. He's done now so the political landscape is going to look a hell of a lot different almost instantly.
So much so they empowered a racist by voting for him? Doesn't that make them racists too?
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,370
Terana
good thread. this is really what troubled me a lot even with biden's victory being clear. that trump received that many votes being awful on pretty much every level. people really thought he was responsible for the economy???

i'd say we need to do a better job of fighting them where the misinformation happens. on fb, social media, etc. they are way ahead/almost uncontested in those spaces, probably because fake news/etc. but that's only a part of the problem.

and ultimately, don't know how you deal with white nationalists, climate deniers, conspiracy theorists, people that had actual bad things like covid personally affect them and they still voted for trump.

i don't live in rural america, so i fundamentally don't get it and never will. i suppose there's no limit to a person's aggrievement if they feel they're getting fucked over.

maybe they're just horrible people, and that's probably the truth we don't wanna hear. the racists who yelled and screamed at black people during the 1940s/50s/60s didn't all die or go away. they're still here.

and i'm fully on-board with the idea that there can definitely be another trump to come along. palin was doing trump's routine before he was. so there can be another. but it will come from someone that isn't a politician. a large reason trump got support is that he wasn't a part of washington beltway culture.

but i think the gop just becomes further fractured as a result. some will follow trump. some will stick with the party. some will stay. some will follow another cult leader. but i don't see anyone in the current gop that can fill the roll with the charisma/realness that trump did. trump was them, which is why they love him. and his stupid family doesn't come anywhere close.

the danger for the gop is that they still don't realize that the gop is the party of trump as of now. if they had to choose between mcconell/fox news or trump, they will pick trump.

the GA senate race will be very interesting
 
Last edited:

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
47,048
Not sure there's much that can be done other than wait for them to die off.

These people don't believe facts

the fuck are you supposed to do at that point
 
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Midramble

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,462
San Francisco
the right won't find someone like Trump

What makes you believe that? What was unique about Trump? He talked like your average social media troll. Only unique thing I can think of is that since he was the prototype he had the initial social presence and money to get his foot in the door to run and the troll speech did the rest. Now that conservatives can prime any social media personality with the initial funding what makes his run hard to replicate?
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,890
What makes you believe that? What was unique about Trump? He talked like your average social media troll. Only unique thing I can think of is that since he was the prototype he had the initial social presence and money to get his foot in the door to run and the troll speech did the rest. Now that conservatives can prime any social media personality with the initial funding what makes his run hard to replicate?
Decades upon decades of being intertwined in the American fabric.

People forget this.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,899
What was unique about Trump?

He was a charismatic cult of personality. That doesn't come along too often. We'll have to see of course but he had "outsider" appeal and was a celebrity who was older so much of his sins were forgiven because he was "from a different generation and was a billionaire playboy." These things are almost impossible to emulate for a rank and file politician.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
Trump was very competent at brainwashing people and incompetent at leading government. It's not going to be easy to find someone good at both. Other than that hold social media and the media accountable for allowing the propagation of propaganda and dangerous conspiracy theories. Twitter, FB, Youtube, Reddit these need to be held legally accountable for what they allow on their services.

Ironically, the dumb conservatives were saying this too so give them what they want they'll suffer for it cause their whole ideology is built on fear mongering and bullshit now.
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
Nothing really. America is still fucked and there's really no stopping that in the end, we're just going to have a period of relative calm for a bit. The whole thing has to collapse for their to be real change one way or another. That's just where we are
 

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,754
Bothell WA
Decades upon decades of being intertwined in the American fabric.

People forget this.
Yup, Trump got elected because people KNEW him over the last 40 years of American culture. From being in movies, TV shows, commercials, and everything else he could stick his stupid face on. That gets built into impressionable peoples minds and you feel a sense of familiarity. "Hey, I know that guy, he must be smart since he's rich and has stuck around forever!". No Republican going forward has anywhere near that much built in fame or presence. They'd have to pull another celebrity into the mix and push them to run, which I don't think they're willing to do again.

Trump also knew how to market and talk down to his followers in easy to repeat sound bytes. Politics is boring for most people, they tune out when politicians start talking about real issues at length. Trump perfected the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,660
There are two sides in a silent, cold civil war right now.

We need to diffuse the danger by eliminating their conspiracist hives, declaring their cult a domestic terrorist organization, classifying their logos and visuals as symbols of hate. We need laws regulating social media and holding them accountable for their users behavior.

No more hiding dangerous behavior behind the first amendment.

This is a problem that was always there, but the internet connected the crazies together and instead of being checked by social norms, they've festered and gone malignant.

It needs to be curtailed now.
 
Sep 7, 2020
737
The fact that more ppl voted for Trump than Obama in 2008 makes me shook to the core. Hard for me to be hopeful about the future right now.
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
I feel like conspiracy theories are the norm these days and trusting scientists is controversial (climate change, coronavirus, vaccines, etc.) and I'm in the minority now because I actually trust what scientists say...
 

Snagret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,782
Decades upon decades of being intertwined in the American fabric.

People forget this.
To add to this, he was in the background of American consciousness mostly as an entertainer and businessman, and didn't start bleeding into politics until Obama took office (and even then, mostly as just a heckler). He energized a base of politically detached voters specifically because he's an outsider to the game, him being "not a politician" made him more "trustworthy", he didn't care about playing by the rules or appealing to anybody except his voter base. You can't just manufacture the circumstances that lead to his victory in 2016, it was lightning in a bottle
 

MonadL

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,888
I dunno but it feels like I came out of this election hating people even more than in 2016 despite Trump being gone lmao
 
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Midramble

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,462
San Francisco
People mentioning that his years as a TV, movie, and magazine personality being unique situation, do you believe that is really needed? With how quickly social movements move and swell these days people become overnight household names what stops the right from going the music industry plant route and riding viral waves?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,111
Power is all that matters. Truth is an afterthought. If Trump is not the nominee in 2024 it will be someone that will follow his playbook. There are no repercussions from within the party. They are not in it to govern, it's all about control.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,370
Terana
People absolutely believe his corporate tax cuts and historically low unemployment numbers, climbing 401ks was proof of a turbocharged US economy
of course, i know that. except in actuality he was piggybacking off of obama/biden lol. that's my point. dems will never get proper credit because they're awful at messaging
 

brinstar

User requested ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,273
Social media needs to be cracked down on. Neo-nazis should not be allowed to run rampant on these platforms
 

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,754
Bothell WA
People mentioning that his years as a TV, movie, and magazine personality being unique situation, do you believe that is really needed? With how quickly social movements move and swell these days people become overnight household names what stops the right from going the music industry plant route and riding viral waves?
Well for one thing, old people still turn out to vote more than young people. Old people won't know or trust some brand new flavor of the month candidate like the younger voters might latch on to.
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
of course, i know that. except in actuality he was piggybacking off of obama/biden lol. that's my point. dems will never get proper credit because they're awful at messaging
They got plenty of credit though. Why are we expecting the opposition to give credit to Obama and Dems in the first place? They were always going to try and steal the results
 
Nov 27, 2017
30,117
California
2020 is the only thing that did him in, and even then barely. If the election had been in February, he would've won by a landslide.

my thoughts exactly, covid really was the reason he lost.
If and it's messed up to say this but if only about 50K died then they'd praise trump and say he's the leader for the future.
But because so many are dying, getting infected is why he lost, people actually wanted to vote

Crazy that he would've got 8 years 0_o
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,370
Terana
They got plenty of credit though. Why are we expecting the opposition to give credit to Obama and Dems in the first place? They were always going to try and steal the results
do they??? most people probably think obama was awful and that the boom times were all due to trump. same thing will probably follow this admin too once they dig us out of the covid hole
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,613
There are some unknowns here that will affect how things go. Have Trump voters "activated" and gone from apolitical non-voters to engaged reliable turnout, or are they Trump voters first and only? 2018 midterms might suggest the latter, but if they have turned into a consistent voting block, well, Democrats are in for a bad time (because they have a hard time mobilizing for anything other than President).
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
do they??? most people probably think obama was awful and that the boom times were all due to trump. same thing will probably follow this admin too once they dig us out of the covid hole
Those people are on the other side of both the aisle and reality honestly. We can't let them ignoring the truth bury what really happened.

Obama is still one of the most respected presidents for a reason. We just elected his Vice President.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,370
Terana
Those people are on the other side of both the aisle and reality honestly. We can't let them ignoring the truth bury what really happened.

Obama is still one of the most respected presidents for a reason. We just elected his Vice President.
no doubt! of course. but this thread is precisely about the 71 million ppl that voted for trump and what to do about anti-intellectualism. so that's why i'm focusing on/talking about them.
 
Jan 3, 2018
3,406
Yup, Trump got elected because people KNEW him over the last 40 years of American culture. From being in movies, TV shows, commercials, and everything else he could stick his stupid face on. That gets built into impressionable peoples minds and you feel a sense of familiarity. "Hey, I know that guy, he must be smart since he's rich and has stuck around forever!". No Republican going forward has anywhere near that much built in fame or presence. They'd have to pull another celebrity into the mix and push them to run, which I don't think they're willing to do again.

Trump also knew how to market and talk down to his followers in easy to repeat sound bytes. Politics is boring for most people, they tune out when politicians start talking about real issues at length. Trump perfected the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Very true. And to add to that, celebrities generally don't want to be President. Trump didn't even want it. Think of which celebrities backed Trump. I can't even name one, much less one with the popularity of Trump.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
GOP is always gonna support their boy. Like in 2012 Obama won the popular vote by 3.9%, which is about the same margin projected for Biden. I think as the divide of two Americas continues in this country, we can expect more of that, unless another 2008 Obama happens. We just need more of us than them at the end of the day.
 

Shadowrun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,748
Regulate the fuck out of social media companies that do fuck-all to curb the rampant spread of disinformation and foster echo-chambers of lies with zero accountability.

Twitter tagging shit as bullshit is a good start, but we need to do a ton more to correct the years of damage and negative programming caused by social media bombarding people with salacious garbage.

This is why all the misguided cries to "understand" the other side are meaningless and grossly miss the point. The other side exists in a Dutch oven of misinformation, conspiracy theories and propaganda 24/7. Unless you fix that issue, there's no way to bridge the gap.
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,872
You can't defeat populism. Just like Ahmadinejad in Iran, a garbage who still have millions of fans.

ies3_ahmadinejad-grimace.jpg
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
no doubt! of course. but this thread is precisely about the 71 million ppl that voted for trump and what to do about anti-intellectualism. so that's why i'm focusing on/talking about them.
I think all we have to remember is there are 250 million people in this country not living in the bubble with the other 71 million and history reflects that, not only here but around the world too.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,370
Terana
I think all we have to remember is there are 250 million people in this country not living in the bubble with the other 71 million and history reflects that, not only here but around the world too.
yes, i get what you're saying. but that's not who this thread is about. it's not about reaching non-voters or third party voters or international spectators. it's about trump voters, so again, that's why we're discussing them. because they're not going away, we just can't ignore them.
 

butreallytho

Member
Oct 27, 2017
57
Social media is a mistake. "Social Media" as in the form of FB, et al.
Forums can be just as bad of course when it comes to the spreading of disinformation and so on, but there is a sort of gamification of "social media" that is terrible. Likes, retweets, imaginary social credit or scores that have been engineered to prey upon narcissism and whatnot.

I wish I had a more useful and practical and practicable comment here but above all I think social media is a large part of the problem. The box has been opened though, the genie is out. I don't know a solution.
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
yes, i get what you're saying. but that's not who this thread is about. it's not about reaching non-voters or third party voters or international spectators. it's about trump voters, so again, that's why we're discussing them. because they're not going away, we just can't ignore them.
The first post I quoted was you saying Dems never get credit in the US for the economy because they are terrible at messaging. It would be weird to just be talking about Trumpers not giving Obama credit in that case.
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,850
This is what gets me about the tired "Biden sucks he barely won" thing.*

There was record turnout across the board in 2020, the highest in over 100 years. In order to have won by more than Biden did, a candidate would have needed to either:

(A) Win over more Trump supporters
(B) Depress turnout among Trump supporters

Which one of these was going to happen, and who is the candidate that would have done it?

As we all painfully learned this year, non-voters aren't always a go-to for progressive votes. Texas added shitloads of new voters to the rolls, and a ton of them voted for Trump.

Biden beat an incumbent who had a cult-like hold on his voters. I wish it had been a landslide, but knowing what we know now about the electorate, it was still a strong result.

*also most of the people I see doing this were the ones who saying he would lose because he sucks. So now he won a solid victory but he still sucks because he didn't win by more? What?
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,887
yes, i get what you're saying. but that's not who this thread is about. it's not about reaching non-voters or third party voters or international spectators. it's about trump voters, so again, that's why we're discussing them. because they're not going away, we just can't ignore them.

67 million people got ignored in 2016, by 64 million people.

The Republican Party has won the most votes for President exactly once since 1988.

As an absolute number, the total vote increases by millions every election year, because the eligible voting population increases. And participation is increasing as well.

This is all to say, every election, dozens of millions of people will have their choice "ignored". That's how it goes.

Maybe the better question is what to do for the 74 million people who have to find four or five million extra votes every election just to win.