7 teens in Philadelphia assault elderly man on camera; victim dies following day

[LinkStrikesBack]

This is a gross-ass take. They're fucking kids dawg. Like, think back to when you were a pre-teen you fucking do the dumbest shit in the world because you just don't think about long term repercussions. One life was already ruined we shouldn't aim to ruin seven more kids lives who almost assuredly already have it rough outside of the prison system as it is. Yeah, they killed a guy and that shouldn't be entirely swept under the rug but the aim should be to put them into a better situation in life.

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The dumbest thing I did as a teenager was deliberately go around locking the teachers toilets when I was pissed off at them being blamed for something I didn't do. A couple of friends broke bones jumping off places they shouldn't have. That's the kind of thing that you can wave as dumb teens being dumb teens, not manslaughter.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

This is a particularly heinous crime (they beat this guy to death, it wasn't a one second thing like pulling a trigger, they went back again and again) and my initial feelings were treat them like adults. That lasted about three minutes. Every child born in the filth, despair and poverty of an American "inner city" is a victim and needs to be helped. Taking the R5 into Philadelphia opened my eyes, block after block of blight

I'm not sure what the answer is in this instance but I know throwing these kids into adult jail isn't it, they need help

 

[Mortemis]

I really don't get what's wrong with charging a minor as a minor. That's literally what they are. I'm not trying to excuse anything these kids did, but if the goal here is rehabilitation then charging them as adults is the last thing to do.

 

[krazen]

This is a particularly heinous crime (they beat this guy to death, it wasn't a one second thing like pulling a trigger, they went back again and again) and my initial feelings were treat them like adults. That lasted about three minutes. Every child born in the filth, despair and poverty of an American "inner city" is a victim and needs to be helped.

I'm not sure what the answer is in this instance but I know throwing these kids into adult jail isn't it, they need help

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Thanks. The irony is the 'Jail en as adults! Punishment must happen' people are also responsible for this man's death because they keep the same beliefs, laws, and attitudes in place to make sure the conveyor belt of future fucked up kids keeps on going even if it makes em feel good and tough to type it.

The reflection is important, because sadly, this is far from an unusual or outlier case even in its violence.

The bloodlust so many people have is likely the answer, but I really don't get what's wrong with charging a minor as a minor. That's literally what they are. I'm not trying to excuse anything these kids did, but if the goal here is rehabilitation then charging them as adults is the last thing to do.

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We want to see these kids suffer because it gets us off and its a cheap thrill, where's the lions and a colosseum when you need them, lets see some bodies in teeth!

 

[Rosebud]

The dumbest thing I did as a teenager was deliberately go around locking the teachers toilets when I was pissed off at them being blamed for something I didn't do. A couple of friends broke bones jumping off places they shouldn't have. That's the kind of thing that you can wave as dumb teens being dumb teens, not manslaughter.

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And they should suffer serious consequences, no one saying otherwise. Charging them as minors is still very serious

 

[Nepenthe]

I'm not sure what the answer is in this instance

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There is no answer in this particular instance because we cannot change the system before these kids are prosecuted (and yes, they need to be prosecuted).

But ultimately the need to even change the system in the first place is because liberals and conservatives alike have worked in tandem since abolition to ensure that our prison system is as brutal and unrelenting as possible, because ultimately both groups are scared to death of Black people. You see it on here every time a Black person or celebrity steps out of line; the fight-or-flight kicks into high gear.

The kids who will be prosecuted are likely fucked, if not in prison then when they get out. And Era gets to go on thinking they're good people, champions of anti-bigotry even! They don't vote Republican after all! The political culture here is an actual fucking joke if you are a Black person here who is remotely aware of the way the systems at play are working.

 

[Lucky Aces]

This is a gross-ass take. They're fucking kids dawg. Like, think back to when you were a pre-teen you fucking do the dumbest shit in the world because you just don't think about long term repercussions.

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I did. And none of them involved aggressively beating up somebody and killing them in the process.

There's a difference between somebody doing something dumb like doing wheelies on a motorcycle to look cool, vs someone going out of there way to commit freaking murder.

 

[Musubi]

The dumbest thing I did as a teenager was deliberately go around locking the teachers toilets when I was pissed off at them being blamed for something I didn't do. A couple of friends broke bones jumping off places they shouldn't have. That's the kind of thing that you can wave as dumb teens being dumb teens, not manslaughter.

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I dunno did you read the part of my post saying we shouldn't handwave the fact that they killed a man? I'm literally saying we shouldn't do that. What shouldn't be done is giving them a trial as an adult. I don't think that fixes anything.

 

[Disco Infernal]

"The attorney tells CBS3 the girl just turned 14 in April and said she is not a danger to the community."

Ummm sure.

 

[Aurizen]

"The attorney tells CBS3 the girl just turned 14 in April and said she is not a danger to the community."

Ummm sure.

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She's 14 she's not. She does what every group of kids has done. Cause chaos.

 

[Disco Infernal]

She's 14 she's not. She does what every group of kids has done. Cause chaos.

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Does chaos mean willfully kill an elderly man? Because the vast majority of kids in groups or alone don't do that. She is a danger to her community. She already proved that.

 

[Aurizen]

Does chaos mean willfully kill an elderly man? Because the vast majority of kids in groups or alone don't do that. She is a danger to her community. She already proved that.

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14-year-olds get carried away. They beat him and he succumbed to his injuries. I live in Philly. I have seen it all in my city. We had frequent flash mobs 10 years ago. folks randomly punching people in the face and running. jumping folks. It's bad. But this is what kids do. This is chaos. Surely they didn't mean to kill him and yes their actions played a huge factor in his death. But to call them animals and change them into adults and not rehabilitation having them in juvie furthers the school to prison pipeline and fails children, especially Black children.

 

[kmfdmpig]

She's 14 she's not. She does what every group of kids has done. Cause chaos.

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I hope she's tried as a child but let's not downplay what she did. Attacking a stranger for no reason is not normal. Killing them is even less so. She is, of course, a danger to her community.

 

[Aurizen]

I hope she's tried as a child but let's not downplay what she did. Attacking a stranger for no reason is not normal. Killing them is even less so. She is, of course, a danger to her community.

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I was not downplaying what any of the kids did. It was chaos. It was brutal and senseless. I'm not going to join the mob and say try her as a kid and dehumanize them. There should be repercussions but putting them in Prison isn't it.

 

[Kin5290]

Has it actually been established, or even suggested, what the motive might have been for this gang of kids to run down, assault, and ultimately murder a seemingly random old man on the street?

 

[Solid SOAP]

I am definitely a proponent of these kids receiving therapy as juvenile offenders before being charged as adults, but what they did wasn't mere "chaos." They literally killed a man, I think we can find more precise language to explain that what they did isnt just what kids do.

 

[Disco Infernal]

14-year-olds get carried away. They beat him and he succumbed to his injuries. I live in Philly. I have seen it all in my city. We had frequent flash mobs 10 years ago. folks randomly punching people in the face and running. jumping folks. It's bad. But this is what kids do. This is chaos. Surely they didn't mean to kill him and yes their actions played a huge factor in his death. But to call them animals and change them into adults and not rehabilitation having them in juvie furthers the school to prison pipeline and fails children, especially Black children.

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"They got carried away" probably isn't a defense that's going to work for them. They were giddy during the attack, and footage shows them equally giddy after they saw what they had done. That is not normal behavior for children.

 

[kmfdmpig]

I was not downplaying what any of the kids did. It was chaos. It was brutal and senseless. I'm not going to join the mob and say try her as a kid and dehumanize them. There should be repercussions but putting them in Prison isn't it.

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I don't want her triedas an adult either. What she did though is not normal for what most kids do. The overwhelming majority of groups of kids don't engage in this type of chaos, so let's not normalize it as if unprovoked murder is a common thing that kids do. It's absolutely not.

 

[Doran]

Feel awful for the victim and I wonder what kind of sad lives these kids would have had to end up in that situation. Someone clearly failed them. There needs to be repercussions and likely quite a bit of mental health aid.

 

[Teenage Fansub]

Has it actually been established, or even suggested, what the motive might have been for this gang of kids to run down, assault, and ultimately murder a seemingly random old man on the street?

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The only thing we've heard from, I think, the defense attorney of the boy is that there was some sort of confrontation between the man and group off camera.

 

[AIan]

No words to describe how nightmarish that must have been for the victim. Can't imagine what those teens must have went through in their lives to do something so horrific.

 

[Darkspellmaster]

One thing I noticed in this discussion right now that we seem to be ignoring is that someone in the group was filming this. Typically this would indicate that some one wanted to see this, which makes me think that we're ignoring the factor of social pressure to commit these acts for likes on social media.

To me it seems like on top of all of these discussions were having we kind of need to factor in the idea of doing this for the likes and imitating challenges or other stupid shit that ends up on line.

So while we're talking about how we want to reform one system (criminal)we need to talk about how to reform another(social)that feeds into the causation of people getting into the other (criminal) though doing acts called on by viewers of the former(social).

All this to say there is a problem when teen attack and kill people for likes.

 

[TheAuldTriangle]

Why don't you take your "Defense Force" strawman bullshit and get the fuck out of here? The situation is not as black and white as you are trying to make it.

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Yeah nah it is. They killed, murdered, an innocent man, who was of old age and fucking homeless and yet some of you in here wanna play the "but they come from a rough area of town" or whatever other bollox.

Fuck you pal.

 

[Renna Hazel]

I think I'll wait for the full story before forming an opinion. If this was a completely unprovoked attack, then I don't care what happens to them, but apparently there may have been an altercation prior to what was caught on video. That can make a big difference.

 

[Jetsun Mila]

Yeah nah it is. They killed, murdered, an innocent man, who was of old age and fucking homeless and yet some of you in here wanna play the "but they come from a rough area of town" or whatever other bollox.

Fuck you pal.

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Love you too mate

 

[Netherscourge]

So you're ok with 14yo voting, drinking, driving, consenting etc.? If they can be mature enough to be charged as adults that's only fair

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I wouldn't equate murder with drinking and voting.

 

[YaGaMi]

They need locking up for a long long time.

 

[The Adder]

approximately one third of 11 to 13 year olds and approximately one fifth of 14 to 15 year olds are as impaired in capacities relevant to adjudicative competence as are seriously mentally ill adults who would likely be considered incompetent to stand trial.

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12916225

Furthermore:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468

She learned that that it's not so much what teens are thinking — it's how.

Jensen says scientists used to think human brain development was pretty complete by age 10. Or as she puts it, that "a teenage brain is just an adult brain with fewer miles on it."

But it's not. To begin with, she says, a crucial part of the brain — the frontal lobes — are not fully connected. Really.

"It's the part of the brain that says: 'Is this a good idea? What is the consequence of this action?' " Jensen says. "It's not that they don't have a frontal lobe. And they can use it. But they're going to access it more slowly."

That's because the nerve cells that connect teenagers' frontal lobes with the rest of their brains are sluggish. Teenagers don't have as much of the fatty coating called myelin, or "white matter," that adults have in this area.

Think of it as insulation on an electrical wire. Nerves need myelin for nerve signals to flow freely. Spotty or thin myelin leads to inefficient communication between one part of the brain and another.

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Don't try actual children as you would adults.

 

[Davilmar]

Agreed.


Not that this is thread for this discussion but there is an interesting juxtaposition between what appears to happening here and Boudin.

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I think it's going to particularly hard to have a balanced response with such a visceral video release of this man being killed.

 

[War95]

A life of inner city living, watching folks that look like you get killed in the street (and on television/internet, by authority figures no less) being told by society that you're more or less worthless. Government has failed them. Community has failed them. Schools have failed them. And that's not even taking into account what thier home lives are like since we don't know. At some level can you blame these young minds for not giving a fuck?

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Listen, the system is responsible for a lot of people doing bad shit but this isnt one of then

 

[Elandyll]

I was not downplaying what any of the kids did. It was chaos. It was brutal and senseless. I'm not going to join the mob and say try her as a kid and dehumanize them. There should be repercussions but putting them in Prison isn't it.

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You absolutely were downplaying it.
The kids need to be tried as juveniles, and get proportional punishment as well as therapy, but no, this wasn't "just chaos".
It wasn't a random melee in a bar or club where a random patron got randomly hit.
A group of children targeted and chased an elderly man and beat him violently, laughing and filming, until he was unconscious, and eventually dying of his injuries.

 

[Neonzel]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12916225

Furthermore:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468



Don't try actual children as you would adults.

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In PA if you are charged with murder than you are automatically charged as an adult.
Her lawyer talks about it in this video .

And here's an article about it

https://www.thefishmanfirm.com/minor-adult-pennsylvania/

Statutory Exclusion. There are situations in which a minor will always be charged as an adult. This known as statutory exclusion and happens in cases involving:

• Murder. A minor will be charged as an adult for murder. Anyone charged with murder, no matter how young, will be charged as an adult in the state of Pennsylvania.

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The law should be changed but that's unlikely going to happen unless there is a huge movement for it.

 

[Teusery]

You're welcome, for the record there are 4 studies there one linked on each word that is a link. :P



It's effective societal messaging in general, unfortunately. We'd rather treat people as "monsters" and "beasts" that are beyond fixing and lock them up out of sight and out of mind (until they get out and do something bad again and go away again) than treat them as, well, people. See also: a majority of this thread.

It doesn't help that most of this forum was born after these policies were in place and it's all they've probably heard or known their entire life.

But it's simply Republican pushed ignorance, to help enrich prison related corporations that actively lobby for the current systems in place (including the corporations that actually own prisons for profit).

Anyone who is a Democrat or left leaning in general and truly cares about science, statistics, facts, reality needs to do research on the subject and come away as you did.

Unfortunately, that's really hard. There are many in this thread that will not read those studies, or worse they will read them and ignore them because they care about their personal feelings than what science says. They'd rather see a victim's family receive some weird form of "justice" via punishment for the aggressor, even if said punishment will statistically likely lead to MORE people getting hurt, rather than minimizing future pain for humanity in general.

Because at the end of the day the left leaning population of the country is just as susceptible to ignoring reality and will fall into similar trappings as the people that refuse vaccinations, or hate abortion, or hate gun control, or hate free health care, or...you get the idea. It's very hard to get people to change once they're stuck on a particular idea as being the right one even if it flies in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

e: And thank you for taking the time to check it out and learn, we need more people to do that and I appreciate it a lot.

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Sure thing, glad I did. And to be clear, this is the study that convinced me you were right: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/220595.pdf

 

[TheMadTitan]

"They got carried away" probably isn't a defense that's going to work for them. They were giddy during the attack, and footage shows them equally giddy after they saw what they had done. That is not normal behavior for children.

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And traumatized people don't exist in normal conditions.

 

[Disco Infernal]

And traumatized people don't exist in normal conditions.

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Rather than make excuses for them, just acknowledge that the vast majority of people in their situation aren't out willfully, or even accidentally, murdering elderly old men, who by the way was in a much much tougher situation than these kids as he was both alone and homeless.

 

[Arkanim94]

Rather than make excuses for them, just acknowledge that the vast majority of people in their situation aren't out willfully, or even accidentally, murdering elderly old men, who by the way was in a much much tougher situation than these kids as he was both alone and homeless.

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We can understand the cruelty of their act without expecting the justice system to be cruel in return.
Those things are mutually exclusive.

 

[TheMadTitan]

Rather than make excuses for them, just acknowledge that the vast majority of people in their situation aren't out willfully, or even accidentally, murdering elderly old men, who by the way was in a much much tougher situation than these kids as he was both alone and homeless.

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Again, no one is making excuses for them.

However, the rampant dehumanization of black people is getting tiresome.

 

[Neonzel]

Another girl is is being charged with 3rd degree murder

13-Year-Old Girl To Be 3rd Suspect Charged With 3rd-Degree Murder In Connection With Fatal Beating Of James Lambert, Attorney Says

An attorney representing the 13-year-old girl says the teen turned herself in Wednesday afternoon.

philadelphia.cbslocal.com

On video only 2 people appear to have physically attacked James Lambert. I assumed they were the ones being charged with his murder especially after they released the 10 year old yesterday. So unless this was the person recording it I don't understand the charge.

 

[HeavenlyE]

Another girl is is being charged with 3rd degree murder

13-Year-Old Girl To Be 3rd Suspect Charged With 3rd-Degree Murder In Connection With Fatal Beating Of James Lambert, Attorney Says

An attorney representing the 13-year-old girl says the teen turned herself in Wednesday afternoon.

philadelphia.cbslocal.com

On video only 2 people appear to have physically attacked James Lambert. I assumed they were the ones being charged with his murder especially after they released the 10 year old yesterday. So unless this was the person recording it I don't understand the charge.

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From the description this seems like the girl who ran after the other girl who dealt the killing blow and was trying to stop her

So yeah don't understand the charge

 

[krazen]

Rather than make excuses for them, just acknowledge that the vast majority of people in their situation aren't out willfully, or even accidentally, murdering elderly old men, who by the way was in a much much tougher situation than these kids as he was both alone and homeless.

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Of course. Hence no one is saying let them go, but debating on

1)Rehabilitation
2)"Tough on crime" just builds meaner stronger versions of the attackers here

We cannot deny this keeps on happening within very particular circumstances. Most people in poverty just go about their day just, well suffering and harming no one. But any stat shows you an extremely abnormal spike in things like sexual assault, murders, mental health issues, etc. There's this idea of the noble poor, where by golly gee I am just a self actualized ten year old who will bootstrap myself to study Bio-chem in between ass whippings that conservatives sell, and its just not the case. The vast majority are trying to survive, but we cannot deny many fall through the cracks with the primary indicator being socioeconomic conditions

 

[Neonzel]

From the description this seems like the girl who ran after the other girl who dealt the killing blow and was trying to stop her

So yeah don't understand the charge

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Update: looks like she isn't being charged.

Her attorney said a warrant was issued for her on third-degree murder charges, but she has since walked out of police custody and the Philadelphia district attorney says she is not being charged.

"My client tried to prevent the group from doing that," Attorney Donte Mills said. "Mr. Lambert interacted with the children and a cone was picked up, a cone was used to assault him. My client, as you can see on the video, tried to grab the cone and stop Mr. Lambert from being assaulted."

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13-Year-Old Girl Not Being Charged In Connection With Fatal Beating Of James Lambert: Philadelphia District Attorney

Her attorney said a warrant was issued for her on third-degree murder charges, but she has since walked out of police custody and the Philadelphia district attorney says she is not being charged.

philadelphia.cbslocal.com

 

[Future Gazer]

She's 14 she's not. She does what every group of kids has done. Cause chaos.

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The fuck is this shit?

No, the vast majority of kids do not go around assaulting strangers for kicks. 14 is also plenty old enough for someone to be considered a danger to the local community, as this horrific incident fucking proves.

 

[Aurizen]

The fuck is this shit?

No, the vast majority of kids do not go around assaulting strangers for kicks. 14 is also plenty old enough for someone to be considered a danger to the local community, as this horrific incident fucking proves.

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I'm from Philly. Kids think they run shit. We had flash mobs. You really haven't lived here to know what's normal. Folks get jumped every day. Kids randomly punch people and run for giggles. yes its horrific and horrible. Though I don't condone it I also don't think they should be charged as adults. Thats my bottom line. Something needs to be done.

 

[Thordinson]

I can't even begin to process this. I agree not all of the kids should be punished because not all of them seem to be instigators.

But come on, how many of the people here advocating for leniency for the ones responsible would still be doing so if they were in the victim's family's shoes? The hypocrisy here is staggering. Your holier-than-thou attitude would crumble in the face of mindless violence and cruelty directed at your loved one. Imagine them suffering, confused as to why it's happening to them, completely defenseless, begging for it to stop - all for it to end in an agonizing death, alone, on cold concrete.

And you tell me you'd still come running here advocating for leniency? What a fucking joke.

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I would absolutely still be advocating for not trying them as adults and for rehabilitation.

The mistake here is thinking that some folks here haven't been affected by violent crime personally. Many of us have. The folks I know that have the same views on rehabilitation are often the folks who have been affected personally by violent crime.

Listen, the system is responsible for a lot of people doing bad shit but this isnt one of then

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You cannot divorce folks from the system. Folks don't live outside of it.

 

[Royalan]

I'm from Philly. Kids think they run shit. We had flash mobs. You really haven't lived here to know what's normal. Folks get jumped every day. Kids randomly punch people and run for giggles. yes its horrific and horrible. Though I don't condone it I also don't think they should be charged as adults. Thats my bottom line. Something needs to be done.

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Thank You for reminding me about the flash mobs. I've lived in Philly damn near 2 decades and I almost forgot all about them. Teenagers used to get together in large groups and violently harass people. Folks walking down the street. Homeless people seeking shelter in the subway tunnels. Cops. And before anybody fixes their fingers, it wasn't just the inner-city Black kids doing this.

There are people wanting to insist that this violence is unusual. Um, welcome to living in a city nearly overrun with poor conditions in modern times, because it's not. This is what these kids are steeped in. The only thing that makes this story particularly unique is a) this poor man died from his injuries; and b) Republicans are seizing on this moment to try and oust Krasner.

And look, to talk about this shit you have to be able to carry multiple thoughts in your head at once. Nobody, especially nobody who's let it be known in this thread that they're from Philly and know these neighborhoods, is trying to make excuses for these kids or trivialize the death of James Lambert by painting an accurate picture for you all of what this city is like right now.

 

[Aurizen]

Thank You for reminding me about the flash mobs. I've lived in Philly damn near 2 decades and I almost forgot all about them. Teenagers used to get together in large groups and violently harass people. Folks walking down the street. Homeless people seeking shelter in the subway tunnels. Cops. And before anybody fixes their fingers, it wasn't just the inner-city Black kids doing this.

There are people wanting to insist that this violence is unusual. Um, welcome to living in a city nearly overrun with poor conditions in modern times, because it's not. This is what these kids are steeped in. The only thing that makes this story particularly unique is a) this poor man died from his injuries; and b) Republicans are seizing on this moment to try and oust Krasner.

And look, to talk about this shit you have to be able to carry multiple thoughts in your head at once. Nobody, especially nobody who's let it be known in this thread that they're from Philly and know these neighborhoods, is trying to make excuses for these kids or trivialize the death of James Lambert by painting an accurate picture for you all of what this city is like right now.

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Its definitely not unusual for Philly. I think it's just a target on Larry Krasner when he doesn't have anything to do with this. Homeless people are targeted by kids and its downright unusual. People must not know what happened during the riots we had in 2020 and 2021. they robbed banks robbed every store and dragged the bank safe and vault out the bank. Philly built different and its not a suburb lol. Prison isn't gonna fix it.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

wow this is a really sad story

rest in peace to this elderly man

and yeah, even for heinous acts like this, i will stick with my principles. these kids are kids and should not be tried as adults. the sentencing they get should have the long-term goal of rehabilitation, though i know that's not a likely outcome in usa's so-called justice system

 

[Thorrgal]

The fuck is this shit?

No, the vast majority of kids do not go around assaulting strangers for kicks. 14 is also plenty old enough for someone to be considered a danger to the local community, as this horrific incident fucking proves.

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Yeah he vast majority of kids in the video didn't even do that, much less the vast majority of kids elsewhere.

In any case looks like in PA all murder cases are tried as an adult, I wonder if that's the same for most states or not.

I guess it's not a well known fact as it didn't even show on the thread until recently and that's because the lawyer and an article mentioned it.