I mean, we all knew what was gonna happen to a bunch of Black kids. The real question was whether or not the so-called allies would keep up the charade of caring about the sociopolitical issues relevant to the case.
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7 teens in Philadelphia assault elderly man on camera; victim dies following day
- Thread starter mbpm
- Start date
Or parents work far too many jobs to make ends meet and are far too asleep to notice their children are out late at night, or they're working graveyard.
I say this as a black man who was out of the house at weird ass hours when I wasn't supposed to because my parents were at work.
Exactly. Shit is hard out there for everyone, so many parents gotta work all the time to feed and clothe their damn kids and can't afford sitters and yeah unfortunately the reality is parents can't always keep the eye of Sauron on their kids. It doesn't mean they are bad, it doesn't mean they aren't doing the best they can. It's a societal issue.
Seems like black kids never get to actually be seen as kids and white kids get to be kids until they are in their mid-20's
Looks like 14 year old was the one who initially hit James Lambert with the cone. They are also charging him as an adult.
14-Year-Old Charged As Adult With 3rd-Degree Murder In Connection To Fatal Beating Of 73-Year-Old Man: Police
The boy turned himself in to the police Monday, around 4 p.m.philadelphia.cbslocal.com
Not surprised, kid is gonna get 10-20 years in prison and come out of prison with no education, no money, no driver's license, no ways of getting an education because he has no money, no way of getting most jobs because he was in prison, no way of getting most assistance because he was in prison, probably be homeless, get forced to do another crime and recidivism back into jail after hurting even more people.
But hey, that's what some people here want! It's so much better to do that than juvie + hella therapy + support and repair this kid into a functioning member of society, because that'd insult the victim's family or whatever! (hard sarcasm here)
So I want to give some local perspective as this has been a pretty big story around here thanks to the national media latching onto it.
Most of my adolescence was split between north / NE & south philly before my dad worked his ass off and was able to move us to the delco burbs. This killing went down in north, a specific part of N that's def not a great area. Philly's one of those cities where you can park at a beautiful rich white people area and walk literally a few blocks and hit the shit. These kids 'hit the shit'.
I guess what I'm trying to preface with that paragraph of disclaimers is that…yes what happened was absolutely fucking horrific, I'm not absolving it in any way whatsoever, but try to understand the socioeconomic factors at play here before you call these kids "animals" (too late btw, peep the 1st pg) and wanna lock em up for life. This is such a complex issue…it can't be summed up with the reactionary one-liners this thread is filled with. These are kids 10-14 years old out 3 in the morning. Think about that for a min. They don't have, and never will have, the support structure that most of the people reading this post right now have been afforded.
Most of my adolescence was split between north / NE & south philly before my dad worked his ass off and was able to move us to the delco burbs. This killing went down in north, a specific part of N that's def not a great area. Philly's one of those cities where you can park at a beautiful rich white people area and walk literally a few blocks and hit the shit. These kids 'hit the shit'.
I guess what I'm trying to preface with that paragraph of disclaimers is that…yes what happened was absolutely fucking horrific, I'm not absolving it in any way whatsoever, but try to understand the socioeconomic factors at play here before you call these kids "animals" (too late btw, peep the 1st pg) and wanna lock em up for life. This is such a complex issue…it can't be summed up with the reactionary one-liners this thread is filled with. These are kids 10-14 years old out 3 in the morning. Think about that for a min. They don't have, and never will have, the support structure that most of the people reading this post right now have been afforded.
Exactly. We throw people in prison give them no means for social mobility once they serve their time and get out and they are then basically forced back into doing crimes to survive.
What he did was wrong. As a society ready to write this young man off we are just as wrong. Ignoring all the variables of this situation and focusing on what we should which is rehabilitation. We as a society have failed this young man. It is absolutely disgusting that after a clear record of how the incarcerated are treated we have never evolved to be better to those that do their time.
Of course I'd rather he was sentenced as a juvenile, but to the people saying he'll get no rehabilitation or education in prison, aren't there still those support systems available?
Ideally if he gets released in his mid 20s there isnt zero hope for his future.
Ideally if he gets released in his mid 20s there isnt zero hope for his future.
Come on…you can't be this naive in 2022. This is a society that's obsessed with punishment not rehabilitation. American prisons are universally terrible. It's likely over for this kid, him turning things around and becoming a functioning member of society would be an anomaly.
Finally got around to watching the video they just murdered the guy and enjoyed every second of it. He really tried to get away and they just chased em down with that cone. Just evil.
I have no idea what services are actually available in American prisons or specifically whichever one he'd be going to, that was a genuine question, and I'm sure if they are there, the odds of them being successful are incredibly stacked against the inmates, but I still don't want to no-hope the kid.
I'm sure the other girl who threw the cone will get similar sentencing, but hopefully all of the others will get juvie sentences or let go.
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The fucking defence force for these scumbags is infuriating. THEY FUCKING MURDERED AN INNOCENT ELDERLY MAN.
I can't even begin to process this. I agree not all of the kids should be punished because not all of them seem to be instigators.
But come on, how many of the people here advocating for leniency for the ones responsible would still be doing so if they were in the victim's family's shoes? The hypocrisy here is staggering. Your holier-than-thou attitude would crumble in the face of mindless violence and cruelty directed at your loved one. Imagine them suffering, confused as to why it's happening to them, completely defenseless, begging for it to stop - all for it to end in an agonizing death, alone, on cold concrete.
And you tell me you'd still come running here advocating for leniency? What a fucking joke.
But come on, how many of the people here advocating for leniency for the ones responsible would still be doing so if they were in the victim's family's shoes? The hypocrisy here is staggering. Your holier-than-thou attitude would crumble in the face of mindless violence and cruelty directed at your loved one. Imagine them suffering, confused as to why it's happening to them, completely defenseless, begging for it to stop - all for it to end in an agonizing death, alone, on cold concrete.
And you tell me you'd still come running here advocating for leniency? What a fucking joke.
I mean, that's why the justice system is a third party. If the punishment was dictated by the offended party we would never have overcome hammurabi's laws.
Why don't you take your "Defense Force" strawman bullshit and get the fuck out of here? The situation is not as black and white as you are trying to make it.
From what I can tell over the last two pages, people aren't advocating for leniency. They're upset that a 14 year old boy is gonna be tried as an adult.
Awful stuff all around, systemic neglect in action.
I don't really understand the point of trying kids as adults in any case. Their limited culpability shouldn't be determined by the severity of the crime, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Then again, your prisoners are actual slaves so I guess it's just good ol' racism and unfettered capitalism once again. What a country.
I don't really understand the point of trying kids as adults in any case. Their limited culpability shouldn't be determined by the severity of the crime, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Then again, your prisoners are actual slaves so I guess it's just good ol' racism and unfettered capitalism once again. What a country.
I am guessing him turning himself in first, and possibly naming the others, will get him some leniency from the prosecution.
I might be wrong but I think it is possible he wont ultimately be charged as an adult.
The other teens though, yeah they will be for sure
I might be wrong but I think it is possible he wont ultimately be charged as an adult.
The other teens though, yeah they will be for sure
I can agree with getting equality with how we sentence people regardless of skin color and background, I can agree that prison should focus on rehabilitation over incarceration, but I also absolutely agree that teenagers killing people should be tried as as adults. So my only problem with what happened to that boy is that it doesn't happen more often to white teenagers as well.
I'm not sure why people in this thread insist that they watched the video....then go on to describe events that aren't shown in the video.
It's happened a few times in here.
Being pro rehabilitation is completely at odds with trying kids as adults with the way the current American prison complex exists. He's going to get little to no serious rehabilitation on the very high chance that he will intentionally return to the prison system (after harming more people) where corporations that actively lobby to prevent prison changes will continue to profit off of him.
It's akin to saying "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" when you need to be fiscally liberal to even enact liberal social policies on a systemic level in the first place.
To be clear, there are multiple studies that show children tried as adults have higher recidivism rates than children with similar charges tried in juvenile court. Trying children as adults statistically does not work, in fact it makes the problems worse. There's plenty of evidence that trying children in juvenile court and giving them a proper education with proper rehabilitation actively helps prevent them from entering the prison system as adults. Trying children in juvenile court reduces crime, in essence, because children tried as adults are extremely likely to return to prison via committing a crime shortly after getting out.
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On a side note, I'm utterly baffled how many people here are repeating right wing talking points about prison. Y'all realize the "tough on crime" thing is a right wing talking point right? It legitimately has no scientific or statistical basis that being "tough on crime" helps compared to rehabilitation and therapy, hence why we jail the most people and still are one of the worst countries for crime. I mean "tough on crime" legitimately originated to unfairly jail youth and folks of color on purpose.
Talk about Republicans ignoring reality and using feels over reals...
Good vibes >>>>> The quality of some Black community
Don't challenge ypur beliefs, just consume, parrot talking points and wonder why bad things remain bad. You've done your part simply by not being a Republican
This is why criminal cases are tried by a judge and jury with no connection to the victim or the accused. No one expects the victim's family to advocate for leniency.
Lets flay the skin off all the kids and give it to the family to wear as a leather coat. Maybe give his adult daughter a bat and five minutes in a locked room with a 14 year old. Maybe the cops should drag the kids out to the sidewalk and curbstomp the eldest and let the youngest brother watch.
So now the family has justice but what happens tomorrow when the same thing happens in Random City, USA? This isn't the first, fifth or hundredth crazy violent crime story any of us has seen, the discussion is about trying to stop it not 'leniency'.
Because this is what happens when they go in:
The Steep Costs of Imprisoning Juveniles With Adults
When young offenders are kept in adult prisons, they are much more likely to suffer sexual abuse and violence.
www.theatlantic.com
This is how much we pay to keep them:
The Hidden Cost of Incarceration
Prison costs taxpayers $80 billion a year. It costs some families everything they have.
and this is what happens when they come out:
But yes, eye for an eye is such a proven theory even an ancient book of fairy tales like the bible is like 'Bro, dumb idea'. We haven't been lenient since the Reagan era, forty fucking years, and yet this happens all the time.
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I'm not seeing the "they" chased him down, and I'm not seeing the "enjoying every bit of it."
That's the type of editorializing you supply when you're going for a maximum sentence.
Looks like 14 year old was the one who initially hit James Lambert with the cone. They are also charging him as an adult.
14-Year-Old Charged As Adult With 3rd-Degree Murder In Connection To Fatal Beating Of 73-Year-Old Man: Police
The boy turned himself in to the police Monday, around 4 p.m.
I wonder if Krasner is feeling the heat? Trying him as an adult seems to go against his progressive judicial reform policies.
Not sure how you can say that when that's exactly what's happening in the video.
They're chasing him right when the video starts and they seem to be enjoying themselves while doing it :
Homicide 2144 Cecil B Moore Ave DC 22 22 035644
The Philadelphia Police Department needs your help:On Friday June 24, 2022, at approximately 2:38 am, in the 2100 block of Cecil B. Moore Avenue, a 72-year-o...
youtu.be
Not sure how you can say that when that's exactly what's happening in the video.
They're chasing him right when the video starts and they seem to be enjoying themselves while doing it :
Homicide 2144 Cecil B Moore Ave DC 22 22 035644
The Philadelphia Police Department needs your help:On Friday June 24, 2022, at approximately 2:38 am, in the 2100 block of Cecil B. Moore Avenue, a 72-year-o...
No need to link the video that's in the OP. I've seen it. Before this thread existed even.
I see a group of kids. Some aggressive, some conflicted, some appearing to actively try to stop the continued violence. That's what I see in that video. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Looks like 14 year old was the one who initially hit James Lambert with the cone. They are also charging him as an adult.
14-Year-Old Charged As Adult With 3rd-Degree Murder In Connection To Fatal Beating Of 73-Year-Old Man: Police
The boy turned himself in to the police Monday, around 4 p.m.
what about the other kids? (especially that girl who threw the cone at him)
The poster you quoted was obviously referring to the attackers. Stop being obtuse.
The most heartbreaking part of this is:
What if the kids had taken a different route and never ran into the old man?
What if there had been a bystander breaking up the situation?
It's insane how multiple lives got destroyed and it all could have been prevented by a slight modification of the events preceding the attack.
Group of teenagers "up to no good" vs. adult who is annoyed by them is a scenario that plays out 1000s of times on the Berlin subway every month.
I was running with a bad crowd for a while and one evening I had to go home (my parents cared, thank fuck) while "the crew" started some trouble with an old guy on the train and blows were exchanged.
1 old guy vs 5-6 teenage boys, thank fuck it was all broken up by some bystanders. Old guy could have been killed.
And this was West Berlin, Germany, hardly a murder capital.
The point is, if my parents didn't force me to go home, I would have been with these people that and probably been involved in a similar situation. Difference between life and death in these type of attacks often is down to luck (bystander stepping in, victim falling the right way etc.). Hate these kids all you want, but they got unlucky that night as well.
What if the kids had taken a different route and never ran into the old man?
What if there had been a bystander breaking up the situation?
It's insane how multiple lives got destroyed and it all could have been prevented by a slight modification of the events preceding the attack.
Group of teenagers "up to no good" vs. adult who is annoyed by them is a scenario that plays out 1000s of times on the Berlin subway every month.
I was running with a bad crowd for a while and one evening I had to go home (my parents cared, thank fuck) while "the crew" started some trouble with an old guy on the train and blows were exchanged.
1 old guy vs 5-6 teenage boys, thank fuck it was all broken up by some bystanders. Old guy could have been killed.
And this was West Berlin, Germany, hardly a murder capital.
The point is, if my parents didn't force me to go home, I would have been with these people that and probably been involved in a similar situation. Difference between life and death in these type of attacks often is down to luck (bystander stepping in, victim falling the right way etc.). Hate these kids all you want, but they got unlucky that night as well.
Actually, going by the tenor of this thread and the conversations that are happening, it's not clear at all. Hence why, "we need to be really careful about the language we evoke when we talk about these things," has been the point of most of my posts in this thread.
You call it being obtuse. I call it erring on the side of caution for a demographic of kids who are rarely ever afforded that grace.
She has yet to turn herself in, as per the article. I imagine it will be the same fate (assuming she is around the same age).
Edit: included the age qualifier as it is far less common that you see kids under 14 tried as adults.
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This study was an interesting read, a lot of things that I didn't know/had misconceptions about in there. My main takeaways:
- That teens in the juvenile centers felt more positive about them and were generally treated better/given access to counseling educational services (which should be the case in both prison and in juvie if the goal is rehabilitation and not incarceration. But it's not.)
- That the teens in adult systems were brutalized, taught crime, and made more cynical about the systems.
- That teens tried in either system got similar sentence lengths regardless.
- Even the teens tried as adults and placed on probation had higher recidivism rates than those just placed in juvenile. (That, to me, tells me that the problem is more about the lack of education and counseling services in general.)
I was curious about how it mentioned that a good chunk of teens tried as adults were unaware that it was even an option/would happen to them, which made me curious enough to look up if there were any similar, more updated studies. Instead I found a whole lot of studies talking about the juvenile recidivism rates overall, which are also not great unless you happen to be in Missouri which apparently has a rehabilitation-based system in place.
So now we have: two systems that need to be changed, one system that is statistically better than the other for kids (I admit you are right here), though the recidivism rates are still high unless it happens to be a juvenile facility with the proper care systems in place (which are RARE).
And kids that are committing crimes yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So... what do we do? I can already imagine the outrage if these teens had been sentenced to juvenile. And then whoever did the sentencing gets replaced with someone who promises to be "tough on crime". You could also argue that a high profile case like this resulting in juvenile sentences might worsen the problem with teens expecting lenient sentencing for similar crimes, since the data is iffy on how much impact knowledge on potential sentences has on teenage offenders.
I guess, in a meta way, education is the answer to all of it: to people like me calling for punishment for crimes, for people considering committing crimes, and people who have committed crimes in general. I don't know how you make huge societal gains on those fronts, especially with republicans pouring billions into dismantling education as a concept, but posts (and studies in particular) like the ones you and others in this thread made help. So thanks.
What can I say? I don't know if it took hold because of effective societal messaging or because of my natural inclinations, but if I hadn't taken the time to read that study you linked I don't think I would have budged at all. And I'm literally someone Republicans would love to have behind bars just because of my skin.
Charge high then bargain down low, maybe?
This is a massive quagmire that I have no single opinion about. Just RIP to the victim.
You're welcome, for the record there are 4 studies there one linked on each word that is a link. :P
It's effective societal messaging in general, unfortunately. We'd rather treat people as "monsters" and "beasts" that are beyond fixing and lock them up out of sight and out of mind (until they get out and do something bad again and go away again) than treat them as, well, people. See also: a majority of this thread.
It doesn't help that most of this forum was born after these policies were in place and it's all they've probably heard or known their entire life.
But it's simply Republican pushed ignorance, to help enrich prison related corporations that actively lobby for the current systems in place (including the corporations that actually own prisons for profit).
Anyone who is a Democrat or left leaning in general and truly cares about science, statistics, facts, reality needs to do research on the subject and come away as you did.
Unfortunately, that's really hard. There are many in this thread that will not read those studies, or worse they will read them and ignore them because they care about their personal feelings than what science says. They'd rather see a victim's family receive some weird form of "justice" via punishment for the aggressor, even if said punishment will statistically likely lead to MORE people getting hurt, rather than minimizing future pain for humanity in general.
Because at the end of the day the left leaning population of the country is just as susceptible to ignoring reality and will fall into similar trappings as the people that refuse vaccinations, or hate abortion, or hate gun control, or hate free health care, or...you get the idea. It's very hard to get people to change once they're stuck on a particular idea as being the right one even if it flies in the face of all evidence to the contrary.
e: And thank you for taking the time to check it out and learn, we need more people to do that and I appreciate it a lot.
I mean, they killed an innocent elderly man. Imagine if that was your father or grandfather. 14 or not, that's a man in many parts of the world. Deserves no leniency in my opinion.
I would. Literally a year removed from a family member being murdered. But what the hell is working to make the person's life as miserable as possible until they're dead supposed to do for me? Especially if it's obvious they lack resources and support? My family member is still dead. I'm not going to get to spend anymore time with them.
I wouldn't get any sense of pride thinking 50 years from now if that person is still rotting away in a cell that justice is being served. Nor am I now emotionally ok because they will spend some time in prison. I know they're likely not going to get any help changing while in prison and will eventually get out with a chance it happens again. People are still going to die in the same manner that my family member did because our society is still completely fucked in how it operates and supports people. Including the prison system which is just a means to keep slavery going in a way that lets the rubes think that we're far removed from justifying that degree of absurdity today. They are paid after all and they get three meals and a cot so it can't be slavery.
And I will still sit here with occasional sometimes frequent thoughts about my loved one dying alone and scared on the concrete. Because that shit doesn't end or get healed by the prison industrial complex.
There is a reason why we separate juveniles from adults in the judicial system. Mental capacity is different. It goes to the heart of what we want out of our justice system? Trying kids as adults mostly results in condemning them to a life of crime with no chance of rehabilitation.
Hopefully but I suspect it might have something to do with the recall efforts.
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Supposedly one of the girls involved is expected to turn herself in sometime today. Don't know if it's the one who hit him or not.
Good god what a terrible case to decide to get tough on. From what I recall, the DA has mainly taken aim at nonviolent drug offenses so I'm not sure what his stance is on violent crimes. But the game changes when you're dealing with juveniles.
Great example why most PoC left this forum and don't bother posting here much anymore. Fake progressiveness - the mask comes off so fast. Era is a joke.
Wow someone walked in front of your car? You must be traumatized.
You can loosen up your grip on your pearls there. Come on, the Citizens app? What does this add other than the further reduction and demonization of an entire community?
They wonder about the lack of mental health resources for white school shooters and surmise if they were bullied. Black kids are labeled animals that just came out of the earth evil. And for doing less (not talking about this case specifically; I've seen it for far lesser crimes)
Highland Park gunman's family was in turmoil for years leading up to parade shooting | CNN
When Bob's Pantry and Deli opened for business in the Chicago suburb of Highland Park in 2008, loyal customers lined up in the snow at 4 a.m. to support Bob Crimo, who was striking out on his own after years running a convenience store franchise. Photos from opening day showed customers hoisting...www.cnn.com
When it comes to mass shooters, especially young mass shooters that aren't black, there seems to be an impulse among many or a curiosity to delve into the background of these killers and discover "what went wrong". I think we can all see that this impulse is not there when it comes to black youth. People would rather say that a black 10yr old is a irredeemable bad seed, and that any attempt at rehabilitation is a waste of time. It's racist as fuck.
It's because people see their own humanity in those white shooters whether they want to or not because they look like them. They don't have the capacity to even want to understand what conditions inner city kids are subjected to, especially ones with black skin. They don't want to stop what causes this to happen because they aren't interested in that. They say lock them up and forget about them because they don't live in these communities and have to worry about happens after - they just are looking through a window. When these kids come back out of the system infinitely more fucked up and with no support system leading them to harm more people, the same types will be at their windows saying the same things as if this effects them at all - as if they actually care to stop these things from happening again.
DA Krasner Highlights Sweeping Changes to Juvenile Justice in Philadelphia
PHILADELPHIA (Feb. 8, 2021) — Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner today highlighted the dramatically positive impact that his…
medium.com
DA Krasner Highlights Sweeping Changes to Juvenile Justice in Philadelphia
PHILADELPHIA (Feb. 8, 2021) — Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner today highlighted the dramatically positive impact that his…
This will be a very interesting and sad case to follow if they renege on their previous efforts.
Agreed.
Not that this is thread for this discussion but there is an interesting juxtaposition between what appears to happening here and Boudin.