you do this because i called them creepy? becsuse you feel as if that's the wrong word? jesus
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60% of male managers now say they’re uncomfortable participating in work activities with women (CNBC)
- Thread starter Khamsinvera
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That's still a poor ass reason. plenty of workers have each other on facebook, instagram, texting, etc. lots even go for drinks. lots do a lot of shit together. your company sounds like awful and gossip filled.
Why would you want to discuss work outside of work? Not meaning to point you out but discussing work via a stereotypically male or predominantly male activity is probably how many places develop an all mens club. It's not something that people deliberately do to keep women out but by not being aware women end up being kept out. Wouldn't it be weird if a bunch of women managers decide that a spa place is a good place to discuss work?
I'm just having fun talking to someone who is completely misrepresenting both what I am saying and what the report says because they think there's an easy win.
I've gone out for drinks with both men and women outside of work to about work, I don't think it's particularly strange. These are also people I've developed relationships with over the course of the seven years I've been employed here, though.
"As for why this is happening, 36% of men say they've avoided mentoring or socializing with a woman because they were nervous about how it would look. "
"how it would look. "
https://leanin.org/sexual-harassment-backlash-survey-results
Now look at yours and others response in this thread.
Since you missed it, my professional experience goes back well over a decade in both public and private sector. This includes the 6th largest state in the country.
When you're responsible for a division with thousands of people in it, the rules are different. And you may be surprised to find that social media policies are ALSO a thing. As we speak hundreds of Philadelphia police officers are facing suspension and/or investigation for facebook posts.
Your opinion is not a substitute for expertise.
Call it whatever you want but getting side-eyed by busy bodies for being a part of my daughter's life is a part of the overarching problem that the other 95% of the post you left out was addressing. It's real no matter how reductive, dismissive, or disingenuous people want to be about it and likely contributes far more to the apprehension felt by the 60% in the OP than the "Literally every man in that 60% must be a sexist or a perv" narrative that has infested this thread. Again, it goes back to the perception problem that has been brought up repeatedly in this thread.
The difference between my personal life and my professional life is the risk:reward equation. There isn't a person on this planet that will come between my daughter and I because the reward of spending time with her is orders of magnitude higher than the risk of being wrongly judged because I have the audacity to drop off/pick her up from daycare, take her to play, take her to the grocery store with me, or take her for a walk without my wife present. The same isn't true professionally: there is very little incentive for me to risk my career for interactions that have been historically abusive and are potential minefields of misunderstanding. As such, I avoid those types of misunderstandings by taking precautions like inviting the team out and cancelling if too few can make it.
You don't get use the history of the abusive relationships between male managers and female subordinates as a bludgeon while ignoring the impact that the history has on the behavior of conscientious male managers of today.
Socializing outside of work hours and that creating favoritism for promotion is problematic outside of gender dynamics. For example, I work in a major metropolitan city in the U.S., and I commute an hour into work and back each day. I put in my time and then I get back home to my family because I'm one of those suckers who actually loves my wife and daughter and actually enjoy spending time with them. Guess what? I never stay for after work drinks or socializing, and neither do any of my other coworkers who commute. Only the in-towners do so, which can easily create a clique if you're not careful (and has done so in some organizations within my company).
I'd like to see a breakdown between industries, honestly. There's a huge difference between a supervisor at a retail store and a supervisor in other settings, where norms are often encoded into policies.
For instance, I'm an officer in the military. I cannot fraternize (i.e., hang out socially to an excessive degree) with enlisted troops. On the other hand, I'm responsible for their development, and that means we shift to acceptable means of mentorship, like lunches, directed feedback sessions, and group events. On another note, I have friends who are consultants, like half the people in DC, and there are strict rules about dating relationships and requirements for notifying supervisors.
On a personal level, I've been mentored by countless women and have returned the favor. Most of my bosses have been women, and I've absolutely grown from that mentorship.
But as far as socializing alone, this is the rub: I'd only want to socialize with someone I wanted to pursue a friendship with, and I generally keep my work life and personal life separate. From my last job, one of my (current) best friends is a young woman I previously mentored, but I was very conscious of keeping things 100% professional at work.
Where's the option for "I have no problem with closed-door meetings or interviews, and I will do anything in the workplace (i.e., mentorship or feedback) with anyone, but I consciously assess when we step outside work and move into a social environment?"
I understand where they're coming from. In my workplace women will use pet names for eachother like 'sweetie' 'honey's 'darling's and may hug eachother or touch eachother on the shoulder etc. Theyve also done this to me without my consent. I recognize that they're just trying to be friendly and lift morale, but I'm careful with how I approach things.
A lot of posters dont or rather would not care to understand that at least for some of these men, the hesitation comes from the fact that they are afraid that what may be an innocuous comment or physical contact from their point of view, may later be interpreted as harrassment. What you thought was mutual eye contact was actually you leering at a worker. What you thought was a comforting touch on the shoulder is an invasion of personal space because you didn't think to ask that person if it's okay to touch them in that way. What you thought was a complement like "that outfit looks good on you" may be considered offensive because the person in question felt that you reduced their worth to physical appearance.
In my workplace I have a no contact rule. With the exception of a fist bump or hand shake, I will never pat a worker on the shoulder or anything like that. I will also never comment on a worker's appearance other than something like "did you get a new haircut? Is that a new coat?"
Its not "oh I cant help myself, I MUST harass! I dont know how to be a good person!" Its 'I dont want to be perceived as a creep while I think I'm being nice"
With respect to what should be done in the article like this, the answer is very simple: hire more women in leadership positions. If these men are afraid to mentor and spend one on one time, they should mentor as a mixed gender duo or offer a woman the mentor role.
A lot of posters dont or rather would not care to understand that at least for some of these men, the hesitation comes from the fact that they are afraid that what may be an innocuous comment or physical contact from their point of view, may later be interpreted as harrassment. What you thought was mutual eye contact was actually you leering at a worker. What you thought was a comforting touch on the shoulder is an invasion of personal space because you didn't think to ask that person if it's okay to touch them in that way. What you thought was a complement like "that outfit looks good on you" may be considered offensive because the person in question felt that you reduced their worth to physical appearance.
In my workplace I have a no contact rule. With the exception of a fist bump or hand shake, I will never pat a worker on the shoulder or anything like that. I will also never comment on a worker's appearance other than something like "did you get a new haircut? Is that a new coat?"
Its not "oh I cant help myself, I MUST harass! I dont know how to be a good person!" Its 'I dont want to be perceived as a creep while I think I'm being nice"
With respect to what should be done in the article like this, the answer is very simple: hire more women in leadership positions. If these men are afraid to mentor and spend one on one time, they should mentor as a mixed gender duo or offer a woman the mentor role.
User banned (2 weeks): hostility, sexist concern trolling
First two pages. I'd go so far as to call these attitudes toxic.
Now how is an impressionable young man meant to feel when confronted with this rhetoric? Do yall think its constructive?
Thanks for this. I noted that fraternization policies restricting management/subordinates from socializing existed, but was shouted down and called all kinds of names for bringing it up.
This thread is really bringing out the WORST in people.
The rules are different because of poor management. The rules are different in a lot of places because management is bad. You can't say "social media policies" when it's going to be really hard to find a company who actively discourages or bans the adding of coworkers on social media because that's a stupid ass idea. You brought up posts when mine was clearly networking, so you didn't really pick up on that. Those cops aren't facing suspension for adding their coworkers to instagram or facebook or whatever.
This should be threadmarkedThere is something really strange about the data that was collected. I was curious to see how many female managers feel uncomfortable participating in work activities with male underlings, and this question is seemingly absent from the survey entirely. Plus, I don't think they even collected data on female managers participating in work activities with other female subordinates. That question is showing up as 0% for females. Unless someone is able to get access to actual results, this is pretty shady.
Why would they not even ask this question for female participants? And again, I didn't see the female manager, male underling question anywhere.
power dynamics are different between men and women. this extends to the work place. a male manager probably has a way different reason to avoid 1 on 1 with a female subordinate than a female does with a malr subordinate. the fact that men seem to be all happy to say they don't want to be #metoo'd is telling as to how it will be different.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Rationalizing Sexism and Community Generalizations over Multiple Posts in this Thread
It's not just this thread. The forum has been overrun with low-quality, minimum effort #WokeHotTake culture. Nothing is taken at face value, everyone suspects the worst of anyone that event hints at disagreeing with the "prevailing" take (E.g, 60% of male managers are sexist or pervs), and there must be alternative agendas in every innocuous thing that a person says. It's the Pepe Silvia bit from It's Always Sunny except on a broader scale and people here aren't acting when they come off as cynical paranoiacs.
One other point that is getting completely misunderstood: being uncomfortable is not necessarily a bad thing. If you're uncomfortable doing something, you're probably more likely to do it more carefully. What actually matters is whether being uncomfortable with it stops you from doing it all, which drives to the final set of questions: "what have you avoided doing?" 61% of men said that they avoided none of the items on the list!
There's lot of shit I find uncomfortable that I do anyway (like give presentations to senior management - I even once had a meeting with the CIO of a Fortune 500 company - that shit is nerve-wracking). So who cares if you find it uncomfortable - just fucking do it anyway and you'll find it gets better and you find your path.
Also: of the questions being asked, simply saying you avoided a thing doesn't tell the entire story. For many of the questions asked, there are plausible alternatives that you could pursue that don't deprive people of opportunities. There could be nuance available we don't see. The truly problematic questions are the first two around mentoring, because there just aren't alternatives. Refusing to mentor women or receive mentorship from women is a problem - those numbers are still too high, but not as awful as being represented here.
And I'll echo that adding "socializing outside of work" (i.e., something completely unrelated to actually doing your job) is likely throwing the statistics off here. I get why it's there (because socializing leads to workplace advancement, even though that's problematic for work/life balance reasons) but I would like to slice the data set with that question removed to see what the results are.
There's lot of shit I find uncomfortable that I do anyway (like give presentations to senior management - I even once had a meeting with the CIO of a Fortune 500 company - that shit is nerve-wracking). So who cares if you find it uncomfortable - just fucking do it anyway and you'll find it gets better and you find your path.
Also: of the questions being asked, simply saying you avoided a thing doesn't tell the entire story. For many of the questions asked, there are plausible alternatives that you could pursue that don't deprive people of opportunities. There could be nuance available we don't see. The truly problematic questions are the first two around mentoring, because there just aren't alternatives. Refusing to mentor women or receive mentorship from women is a problem - those numbers are still too high, but not as awful as being represented here.
And I'll echo that adding "socializing outside of work" (i.e., something completely unrelated to actually doing your job) is likely throwing the statistics off here. I get why it's there (because socializing leads to workplace advancement, even though that's problematic for work/life balance reasons) but I would like to slice the data set with that question removed to see what the results are.
Well, it's not like a bunch of dudes literally mansplained away concerns from women. Well, that kind of happens in every thread regarding sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc, so did you really expect them to really come in here arguing in full when history has shown it's not that good at convincing a lot of y'all? It's, like, all people are saying is basically, "do better" or "if you're a bad manager then you're not qualified to be a manager" but a lot of managers really took this to heart. Like, REALLY took it to heart.
Women had to fight to get into the work force and some places still don't hire women, they get paid less, less opportunities to occupy senior positions, have to deal with absurd dress codes, harrassment and abuse in the workplace and we're supposed to feel bad for men who don't know how to act around women?!
What the hell are you even trying to defend here.
You have no idea how uncomfortable most if not all women are made to feel working with men if you think this is anything but guys being fragile.
If they are afraid of one on one meetings why not call someone else into the room?
This racist white lady I used to work for once called in some higher ups to accompany us in our main office to scold me in private (don't have any concrete evidence she is racist but she loved Trump). I was visibly upset that morning but that meeting, but I guess you gotta make sure the tall angry black man in dreads doesn't assault you for doing your job lol.
Funny how that works though. That experience fucked me up for good when it came to workplace dynamics. Nonetheless, I love working with good people regardless of sex. Can confirm that women are a lot more savage at assaulting a male bosses ego, though 😂. Facts are facts.
This racist white lady I used to work for once called in some higher ups to accompany us in our main office to scold me in private (don't have any concrete evidence she is racist but she loved Trump). I was visibly upset that morning but that meeting, but I guess you gotta make sure the tall angry black man in dreads doesn't assault you for doing your job lol.
Funny how that works though. That experience fucked me up for good when it came to workplace dynamics. Nonetheless, I love working with good people regardless of sex. Can confirm that women are a lot more savage at assaulting a male bosses ego, though 😂. Facts are facts.
There is something really strange about the data that was collected. I was curious to see how many female managers feel uncomfortable participating in work activities with male underlings, and this question is seemingly absent from the survey entirely. Plus, I don't think they even collected data on female managers participating in work activities with other female subordinates. That question is showing up as 0% for females. Unless someone is able to get access to actual results, this is pretty shady.
Why would they not even ask this question for female participants? And again, I didn't see the female manager, male underling question anywhere.
Anecdotes
I have had 2 female managers try to spend time with me outside of work for the record. Did not feel comfortable in either situation, especially the second one...
I got brought back into this depressing ass thread for that? Well, my day is a little bit shittier than it could have been.
You're right. A better study would survey both genders to see how significant the gap is with those behaviors. That would make the results much more powerful and relevant and also shed light on what types of interactions, in particular, cause male managers more hesitation than female managers.
You have no way of knowing that.
No what I think is constructive is paying fucking attention to the world around you and having some ability to make reasonable judgement about how to behave in a professional setting. I mean they're managers - presumably they have experience.
Keep your hands to yourself and don't make comments about women's appearance at work. Fucking start there and we can alleviate much of this problem.
Stop acting like we're talking about teenage boys.
Yes, there are nuances about interactions at work and those can cross into gray areas that are hard for men and/or women to navigate sometimes, but the crux of this issue is absolutely, unquestionably one of a bunch of normally-accepted, shrugged-off, ridiculous behavior and men who are annoyed that they have to start watching what they say and how they act at work. That is un-fucking-deniable.
I do not hope for it to be constructive. I hope they will look at this and go "wow, people will not tolerate me playing the victim over a cultural movement where men have systemically harassed women for decades and denied them equal treatment, i better not try!"
I do not care about appeasing impressionable young men and their delicate feelings at the cost of justice for women.
This anti-metoo "what if shes lying" rhetoric comes at the cost of justice for women.
This was what I wrote which is what you quoted from me.
Which you call toxic. So you're saying that it is hard to not sexually harass someone? What's wrong with you?
A few years ago my girlfriend worked at a large international company in the US and a group of people went out after work to a bar to hangout. A woman in the work group started to hit on the male manager. Touching his leg and then kissed him. Another woman there didn't like this woman, and complained to HR. Literally every other person there explained it during their "investigation" as her touching him and kissing him (once). He even tried to discourage it and get away. The manager was well liked by all the other women working for him. He was still fired.
Thanks, for providing the perfect thread to link to, when it comes to men should be more outspoken about their feelings and problems.
This is exactly what happens then, the user who actually read the study and gave more in depth Infos about the numbers (the title is very clickbaty) got accused of mansplaning. Men who spoke from experience, like the father with his daughter or manager giving inside of their reasoning and feelings were either ignored or called fragile and every respond trying to look at it from everything but a black and white perspective got cruzifide.
This is exactly what happens then, the user who actually read the study and gave more in depth Infos about the numbers (the title is very clickbaty) got accused of mansplaning. Men who spoke from experience, like the father with his daughter or manager giving inside of their reasoning and feelings were either ignored or called fragile and every respond trying to look at it from everything but a black and white perspective got cruzifide.
No I'm not saying they're equivalent. But a lot of the workplace sexual harassment has occurred with off-hour outside socializing. There's less accountability in those settings and often times alcohol is involved. So if I was trying to clamp down on sexual harassment at a company and create a safe environment, then I would definitely put a spotlight on outside socialization / fraternization between managers and subordinates.
Reality is this all seems rather expected when men have culturally been allowed to act however they want at work and wave it off like "oh I was just being nice" or "there's nothing wrong with complimenting someone." Now that there's a tiny bit of pressure put on us to simply be professional dudes regress to acting like they have no idea how to exist and there's all this fucking whining and sarcasm about "Fine I guess I'll never talk to a woman at work again."
Manager or not, anyone who genuinely says they're worried about mentoring or interacting with a woman at work either isn't used to being a professional or is only used to interacting with women in shitty ways outside of work , likely because they don't have to fear consequences. I don't feel sorry for you. You're a fucking idiot and a man-child and you make men look worse than we already do.
This isn't to discount the more complex side of interactions at work but the notion that there's such an incredibly fine line between treating coworkers professionally and making people uncomfortable is laughable and in general entirely untrue.
Manager or not, anyone who genuinely says they're worried about mentoring or interacting with a woman at work either isn't used to being a professional or is only used to interacting with women in shitty ways outside of work , likely because they don't have to fear consequences. I don't feel sorry for you. You're a fucking idiot and a man-child and you make men look worse than we already do.
This isn't to discount the more complex side of interactions at work but the notion that there's such an incredibly fine line between treating coworkers professionally and making people uncomfortable is laughable and in general entirely untrue.
This is a professional shortcoming that shouldn't be tolerated, if only because this means they'll be less likely to recruit women because of it.
Exactly.
That's hardly constructive now, is it.
I have 15 direct reports, around a third of them are women, they're all fantastic team members. One I hope will get my job soon.
I aim to be a damn good manager and my retention rates are outstanding, including returners from maternity leave. Part of that management includes NEVER putting any subordinate in any situation in which THEY might feel uncomfortable. It's the only responsible thing to do. I don't do socialising. If there's team drinks I invite everyone, pay for two rounds of drinks, then leave.
All of you saying "just don't be a creep" are taking too simplistic a view. I have promotion, pay and bonus power over all my subordinates. I don't invite anyone out for 1-1 drinks, both because it's poor practise and also because some women could naturally fear the worst (pressure to say yes) given how shitty many men can be. I would literally be horrified at the thought I'd made ANYONE uncomfortable so I take care not to do ANYTHING that could result in misinterpretation. By anyone. My team's welfare is my responsibility, at all times. Full stop.
I get you saying about making your staff uncomfortable, but consider this, do you think a women should be uncomfortable just because you have to have 1-1 with them? This happen all the time. You have to go on a meeting when choosing who goes with you, you can't snub women just because you think they might uncomfortable, is simply not fair for the women. Or you may need to talk to your female worker about problems with her output on work, the recommended behavior is to talk with the worker in private, but just because it's a women you going to reprimand her in front of her colleagues when that's a bad practice and it's humiliating? You can't avoid these situations forever so just treat them as workers and remove the gender from the equation, that have no business on job.
I'm generally not a fan of socializing but this covers things that go beyond socializing.
This is part of the job and is pretty clear cut, there's really no good explanation if the following are part of your activity (they're part of mine typically) :
Senior-level men also say they are 12 times more likely to be hesitant about one-on-one meetings with a junior woman than they are a junior man, nine times more likely to be hesitant to travel with a junior woman for work than a junior man
I wouldn't go as far as to say they are all unfit, but I don't see a problem with working with all females. I use to manage retail and all my cashiers were females and I never had an issue I just treat them like everyone else at work, I feel managers that have a problem might be the ones who like to touch, from my experience a manager at the big retail I worked at got fired for texting co-workers outside of work about hangout and got too touchy when they did.
It's so weird how you go out of your way to seem neutral to the work force. If an issue is brought up, just explain it. If you work with reasonable people then they'll understand. The idea that you would give bonus, promotion, etc to a person who hangs out with you socially is a 100% you thing, not them. If you ask to hang out with someone then still treat them as an employee at work and gauge them based off that. I think y'all are thinking too hard into this just to avoid something.
I'll go to meetings with my women subordinates all the time. I also don't have a problem having 1-1 meetings in the office. It's open plan and the few meeting rooms are all glass walled anyway.
Let me give you an example. I'm traveling on a sales pitch to the US long haul. With a female colleague, I'll make sure I'm sitting not near her on the flight. We can chat in the lounge before / after. If we check into the same hotel I'll make sure we're not in adjacent rooms, maybe even make a joke about how she doesn't want to see me on my way back to the room from the gym. We can catch up on business in the cab to the client. In the evening I tell her I'm sure she wants some down time. I don't suggest drinks, we do a short debrief in the lobby. When we get back to the UK I'll do any follow up or coaching in the office.
I do all the coaching and mentoring I need to. I'm careful to avoid any situation where a woman subordinate might feel uncomfortable. I'm happier that way, I hope they are too.
No, because I'm the boss and I'm preventing them from socializing and that's the norm that's followed.
I really do think we all work in different industries.
I can see this as a legitimate reason. But seeing as many companies are downright prohibiting this activity then you can probably also see another reason it's a good idea. The actual reason these companies are wary of the after work fraternization. I mean, when your company is uncomfortable with you doing it, why shouldn't anyone be?
You know from go that you're on shaky ground with your company for just being there. Even if it's not prohibited. I don't blame anyone for being uncomfortable with that.