Please go on. Tell me more. What are they self preserving? What makes for a great tweet? Genuinely am trying to understand what youre saying here.
The blatant sexism in this thread is honestly shocking.
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60% of male managers now say they’re uncomfortable participating in work activities with women (CNBC)
- Thread starter Khamsinvera
- Start date
Maybe shocking isnt the right term. These threads always get the alt accounts and the like out.
Why would it be okay for a man? You'd still run into similar problems with men (boss & subordinate) socializing outside of work. Male/female is a little more visceral, but you'd still have problems for example if a male boss kept taking a particular male subordinate golfing all the time, especially if that subordinate gets a promotion.
You're arguing something I wasn't. I wasn't arguing for the status quo.
Who has been unfairly accused and how frequent is this compared to the cases where such claims were entirely legitimate? Because the answer is its not even close.
If it happens at all then it would still be in someone's mind to shape their actions.
This is all getting fairly off topic but I'm oddly surprised at how rigid these responses have been. I think there's a big disconnnect and probably different feelings between industries.
After reading this thread some more the vocabulary being used is very telling. You and I call it a team. The HR speak is manager and subordinate. You and I want to build relationships and comraderie, to use your term. They want to proactively restrict interaction to minimize risk. It's fucking bizarre to me.
My team has grown organically and is built on trust and relationships. New team members are afforded all the opportunities the existing team members have. If I'm going to go have dinner after a long week on the road with a male I'm sure as hell going to do it with a female as well. If someone is uncomfortable with me asking them to dinner then that's on them, I'm not treating them any differently. I can see why they might be uncomfortable, but getting over that hurdle and becoming comfortable with each other is more important to me than some initial awkwardness. If someone repeatedly ostracizes themselves from team gatherings they aren't as likely to work well on my team. But I'm not automatically dismissing anyone, if they are a good team member and technically sound I'm not going to ding them for not going out, that's ridiculous. But I'm not going to stop inviting people out altogether because that's not how I've built some of the more successful teams in my organization. We bond and grow and trust. Without that you've got a dysfunctional team IMO.
We're not this robotic organization built explicitly to minimize risk, that sounds awful.
Dude men network and get promotions all the time via this shit.... it already is ok for them.
That you went straight to some size 2 sexist stuff as your example shows that you know it's totally looked at differentply when men fraternize... that's literally has a term called networking.
The issue is that women are not able to network because men run the fuck away and mingled with each other instead and thus women don't make key business connections as easily, you came in to claim this isn't a gendered thing but that's nonsense
So is it worth and legitimate to have a fear of an army of fire ants march into your house and carry out an attack on you? Is it legitimate to be concerned a meteor is going to crash into you everytime you go out? What about going out to eat or socializing with male workers. Tell me why it is a salient concern to be concerned about working with women and why this seems to be of more concern than the other examples? Because false accusations aren't a predominant risk men should worry about.
User Banned (1 Month): Sexism
A lot of you that are immediately writing this off aren't males that work in leadership.
As someone that manages times have changed so much. There are women frothing at the mouth waiting for a guy to slip up and say something that sounds sexist to them. There is also a constant guilt trip that you should hire a less qualified woman over other superior male candidates.
It's gotten to the point that some guys talk about not knowing what's right or wrong anymore and just choose to keep quiet. It basically makes you feel like you are constantly walking on eggshells in a leadership position.
I'm not saying women don't deserve to be treated better and don't deserve the same equality that men do in the workplace.
I'm saying there's a new race card out there for females and select few are using it and ruining it for everyone.
Edit: I should also note that the women that I have managed that I described above are the typically ones that are underperforming. Rarely is it the female employees who are great at their work and are less dramatic.
As someone that manages times have changed so much. There are women frothing at the mouth waiting for a guy to slip up and say something that sounds sexist to them. There is also a constant guilt trip that you should hire a less qualified woman over other superior male candidates.
It's gotten to the point that some guys talk about not knowing what's right or wrong anymore and just choose to keep quiet. It basically makes you feel like you are constantly walking on eggshells in a leadership position.
I'm not saying women don't deserve to be treated better and don't deserve the same equality that men do in the workplace.
I'm saying there's a new race card out there for females and select few are using it and ruining it for everyone.
Edit: I should also note that the women that I have managed that I described above are the typically ones that are underperforming. Rarely is it the female employees who are great at their work and are less dramatic.
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It's not difficult to to understand the motivation even if you disagree.
Facts don't matter if someone thinks it's possible it might happen to them so they'll do what they can to eliminate that risk.
Eta- just want to make clear I don't agree, but if people have a hard time understanding why male managers don't want to deal with this, I don't know what to tell you.
False accusations of celebrities or students happen a lot more than a meteor, if you see a large news story say, one a month, it's enough to stick in your mind.
We're clearly on two different pages.
I'm not arguing how it is, I'm arguing how it should be. I don't think there should be outside social activities between boss and subordinate regardless of gender. The negatives outweigh the benefits and it creates poor optics among the rest of the workforce. If you can't get promoted inside the company walls, then there's something wrong with the company.
Ok but that's not how it is... so for you to have said it's not a gender issue.... you can at least admit to being wrong there yes?
I work in management now. I have in the past as well. Ive had intimate relationships with superiors and with people who work under me. I have had social friendships with women and continue to have lasting friendships with them to this day. I have never once had to worry about whether my behavior will get me into trouble or that theyre frothing at the mouth to get money out of me. This is pure fantasy coming from someone who clearly has some serious concerns about their own behavior and those they work with.
Oh and yeah rarely its women who excel at work. What a sexist fuck.
And if those people want to believe that they shouldnt be managers. Plain and simple. If they dont want to worry whether their own behavior is sordid, then they likely shouldnt be in management to begin with.
So why do you think the discrepancy exists with men then? As your logic suggests, if it happens once its worthy of being concerning, yet thats not the case here. Why is that?
85% of the people I work with are men. I'm glad you guys are out there defending those who make my life harder. Thanks, really appreciate it. Must be hard treating 50% of the population like they aren't sex objects or out to get you fired.
I'd like to see this backed up with some sort of data or statistics. I've seen no evidence that false accusations of sexism is really a prevalent issue. At least compared to the very real issue of sexism against women in the workplace.
I agree. However, they're already managers and they sure as shit aren't giving it up voluntarily so they'll do what they need to do to minimize risk of losing their position. That's the reality.
Funny. I'm some sexist fuck now because I've inherited staff members that are looking for an excuse for their laziness?
You are pretty fucking clueless if you don't think specific genders or minorities don't try to take advantage of the system.
I say that as a minority.
No I just think that focusing on a small portion of people who take advantage of things isnt worth considering in the vast majority of discrimination those people face.
And yes, you are a sexist fuck.
I'm sure it's possible some do but I don't buy that it's very common or anything to be concerned about. Certainly not compared to systemic sexism in the workplace.
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Lol please, that's a very different social dynamic and you know it. You're just being contrarian at this point.
Back that up. Explain to me why its a different social dynamic, and how that isnt a product of male sexism maintaining its own hierarchy.
First off: that dude has the worst take in the thread, flat out. Not on board with it at all.
Second: its pretty well known that reliable data on false accusations of sexual harassment isnt something that's available nor will it ever be available.
Public and Private sector organizations alike have increasingly begun to mandate that these complaints go through private arbitration. They're effectively invisible even when successful. Recent supreme court decisions all but guarantee that the use of private arbitration will only increase going forward, as its been ruled the Federal Arbitration Act takes precedence over literally every other state or federal law except in extremely limited circumstances.
Unsuccessful claims? Simply are dismissed as unsubstantiated and you will similarly never hear about them.
I've handled sexual and racial discrimination claims for my employers, and can tell you the amount that end at the "unsubstantiated" level VASTLY, VASTLY exceed the ones that go anywhere. Doesn't mean these were false claims of sexual discrimination, only those that lacked sufficient grounds to progress.
Take it as you will.
I get the feeling you don't you don't work in an office environment. Apologies if I'm wrong.
You'd think engaging with and being respectful of women in the workplace was some sort impossible task.
User banned (1 week): sexism, rationalizing sexism over a series of posts in the thread
I am not uncomfortable working with women but I refuse to work alone with one in an unmonitored space.
When i said it wasn't a gender issue, I was referring how the "optics" are not a gender issue, which I still stand by. As I said, a male/female thing will probably elicit a faster and more visceral response from co-workers, but even a male/male thing can cause problems in terms of appearances, especially if the male subordinate gets promoted.
Also beyond appearances male subordinates are at risk of toxic power dynamics where a male subordinate may feel he has to do "unethical" or "illegal" behavior in order to maintain his personal direct line to the male boss. This is why I'm in favor of no fraternization with either gender if there's a power dynamic. When there's a power dynamic I don't believe men should be able to freely "network" with other men while those same men are quarantined from networking with women. That's entering Mike Pence territory.
I work management, half my team are women and so is my supervisor. Before this I worked in management in the service industry managing all women. Before that I was a coordinator, my head staff was a woman and more than half my staff were as well. Ive never once felt worried about my behavior around them compared to men, and I'm trying to understand why anyone would innately feel this way unless its informed by cultural sexism. Because thats the only legitimate argument to make regarding why men feel this way.
That's smart. That's when our manpire teeth grow out so we can feast on the male species.... as long as one person is watching though the teeth can't come out... safety first... smart man.
No worries. I would not want to work alone in an unmonitored space with you either. :)
I'm surprised that you find an opinion where someone might feel they might get railroaded is an impossibility having worked with so many different people.
Because men typically do not have to worry about being hit on in the workplace or unwanted advances in general at the same level women do. Women get that all of the time, so its not very irrational for them to assume its happening when it may not be. In this situation however it probably feels way more uncomfortable and problematic if it appears to come from a person with real power over your job. You're arguing with me for no reason.
Lol! These idiots have no right to be managers then. I have two women on my team and I'm about to hire two more. I have one on ones with my current employees and we all do social stuff together. This shit ain't rocket science. Treat them like you'd treat any other professional. Goddamn snowflakes all over the place.
You are part of the problem.
There can be problematic people everywhere, but it's not a trend and the vast majority are not "frothing at the mouth" to take you down, give me a break.
You are uncomfortable working with women. Period. That's sexism.