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Oct 25, 2017
21,464
Sweden
I agree with you that it sucks. I disagree with the idea that male managers are wrong to be hypersensitive to the optics of their interactions with subordinates and especially with subordinates of the opposite gender.

Boundaries are either a critical consideration in the workplace or they aren't. If boundaries are indeed critical (A sentiment I agree with), then managers can and should take precautions to avoid even the faintest appearance of impropriety in the workplace. This is especially true in the United States where we basically have the least employee protections in Western civilization. Avoiding the appearance of impropriety means identifying workplace relationships that have been historically abusive and doing everything you can to avoid creating that situation for your subordinates or yourself.

I'll give you a real-world example that I went through to explain why. While I've never been accused of sexual impropriety, I have been falsely accused of a discriminatory termination because I terminated an employee of a different race for wage theft. What the employee didn't know was that I had incontrovertible evidence captured from system logs I'd used when I had previously terminated others for the same crime. The employees in question were signing into our time system and clocking in from home (Initially evidenced by consumer IP addresses that were not even remotely close to being associated with our ISP or internal subnets). I could see within the surveillance systems that they were either a)showing up well after they'd clocked in or b)not bothering to show up at all. Despite that evidence, there was an investigation by HR. I was vindicated but that didn't make the process any more enjoyable. I should have taken my findings to HR first and did in situations after that occurred.

In the specific context at hand, you have to ask yourself uncomfortable questions that people may not understand unless they're in that position. If I ask a female subordinate out for a working dinner, is she going to take that at face value or assume I have underhanded motives? Is she going to feel compelled to go even though she doesn't want to? If she goes but didn't want to, will she resent it? If she declines, is she going to assume that a less-than-stellar performance review down the road is related somehow? If she feels it was all benign and coincidental, will she discuss it with a friend who went through a terrible situation of her own and convince her that her impressions were wrong? If an accusation flies, how much evidence do you have to prove your intentions were professional? Would you personally think the risk-reward equation justifies putting yourself out on a limb like that?

If you're a male manager and have any sense at all, you should be asking yourself these types of questions when you interact with a female subordinate precisely because women in the workplace have been mistreated and may interpret your actions in a way that you don't intend. Being aware of that history can influence your decisions every bit as much as being oblivious to it.
If you're not going on a work dinner with female employees because of what you describe, but do with male employees, then you are discriminating.

If this, in my opinion, irrational fear that you have changes how you interact with female employees, then you should also change how you interact with male employees
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,844
So you have no solution just endless empathy for men who are afraid of women.

Cool.
Why even reply to my post if you didn't even try to consider what I was saying and instead just project onto me? Ok. The solution is to not be naive and realize that your actions as a manager can be misconstrued even if you have good intentions. What do you have against that?
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
If you're not going on a work dinner with female employees because of what you describe, but do with male employees, then you are discriminating.

If this, in my opinion, irrational fear that you have changes how you interact with female employees, then you should also change how you interact with male employees

I won't go out with any of my employees unless at least a few have agreed to go precisely for the assumption you just made. Invitations are to the team and they're cancelled if too few can make it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,464
Sweden
I won't go out with any of my employees unless at least a few have agreed to go precisely for the assumption you just made.
As long as you treat your male workers the same way, and as long as these fears you have don't stop you from employing and promoting women, then I have no issues with what you're doing.

You should track hiring and promotion statistics statistically to ensure that these fears don't subconsciously make you less likely to hire and promote women
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
Why even reply to my post if you didn't even try to consider what I was saying and instead project onto me? Ok.

I asked you what the solution you might suggest and your answer was understand that men have to be extra careful around women and that's just how it is.

That's not a solution that's empathy for men feeling afraid of women and excluding them from networking as a result.

Which is literally the status quo.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,009
I don't think all 60% of those men are creepers or men who can't control themselves. I think some are legitimately worried about a false allegation. The false allegation may not be from the woman but from a 3rd party. For example, a jealous co-worker could accuse another co-worker of favorable treatment due to "business" lunches or trips with a boss/manager. Then it just becomes a mess to untangle. I imagine some of those male managers polled aren't uncomfortable because they can't control themselves, but they're worried about appearances.

I pointed this out earlier in the thread. Manager A and Employee B can have a completely above board friendship outside of work, but Employees C,D,E, and F who do not have a relationship with this manager may end up filing a complaint over it if their career advancement doesn't match Employee B. And then it's on Manager A to "prove" that favoritism wasn't an issue. It's not fun. ESPECIALLY not for public sector since you can literally get hit with a union grievance over ANYTHING.

edit: here's a fun mental exercise- imagine Manager A and employee B are both male, and employees C,D,E, and F are all female. Would a court or arbitrator be more sympathetic to the claim that sexism/favoritism was at play? hint: the answer is "yes" here, and proving otherwise can be REALLY difficult. The best advice to follow is that managers simply avoid hanging out with direct reports, regardless of gender. The liability you potentially expose yourself to here is not worth it.

It might be good if more companies had an official code of social conduct between employees, among co-workers and among manager and subordinate. Just put it all in writing. For example, working lunches are okay anywhere but a working dinner between a manager and subordinate should be limited to a restaurant within a 5 mile radius of the office.

Many companies do, but tend to just spell out that Manager/Employee socializing outside of official work sanctioned events (happy hours, etc) is frowned upon. Simplicity is best when it comes to policies like these.

It also might limit work sponsored "Bro-Activities" so male managers can't have meetings, which effectively ice out women and give the male employees an advantage. So no lunches at the titty/cigar bar or sauna.

The above will run you into a title VII sexual discrimination complaint pretty quickly if you freeze out female employees this way. Company policy aside, it's frequently illegal.
 

Books

Alt account
Banned
Feb 4, 2019
2,180
From a decent human beings perspective, shouldn't we be willing to take a harder path if it's the better thing to do?
Ideally sure, but the hypothetical manager is trying to minimize risk of losing their livelihood.

Shortsighted? Sure. Unfair? Most definitely.

But that they're actually icing possible positive work relationships with female subordinates/coworkers tells me it's a legitimate fear for them.

Likely to happen? Most likely not, but nobody wants to be the first canary in the coalmine
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,465
I pointed this out earlier in the thread. Manager A and Employee B can have a completely above board friendship outside of work, but Employees C,D,E, and F who do not have a relationship with this manager may end up filing a complaint over it if their career advancement doesn't match Employee B. And then it's on Manager A to "prove" that favoritism wasn't an issue. It's not fun. ESPECIALLY not for public sector since you can literally get hit with a union grievance over ANYTHING.



Many companies do, but tend to just spell out that Manager/Employee socializing outside of official work sanctioned events (happy hours, etc) is frowned upon. Simplicity is best when it comes to policies like these.



The above will run you into a title VII sexual discrimination complaint pretty quickly if you freeze out female employees this way. Company policy aside, it's frequently illegal.
I mean I'd argue that said scenario is a good reason why people should avoid having personal friendships with direct subordinates, and if they do get into such a situation they should request said subordinate to be transferred to another team, same as you would if you have any sort of romantic relationship with a subordinate. Being close personal friends with someone who works under you is a pretty clear conflict of interests
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,960
Is this the result of coddling the male ego for so long? Is this the blowback to now having to treat women equally, with respect, and with fear of actual consequences for doing otherwise?

I mean, I'm a gay male so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I have zero issues with the women on my staff. At least, issues surrounding preferential treatment or discrimination based on gender, and not me generally being stern af (which is the general opinion everyone under me has).
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,465
Ideally sure, but the hypothetical manager is trying to minimize risk of losing their livelihood.

Shortsighted? Sure. Unfair? Most definitely.

But that they're actually icing possible positive work relationships with female subordinates/coworkers tells me it's a legitimate fear for them.

Likely to happen? Most likely not, but nobody wants to be the first canary in the coalmine
Would you be saying the same thing about someone who refused to go outside out of the fear that they might be hit by a meteor at random?
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,009
I mean I'd argue that said scenario is a good reason why people should avoid having personal friendships with direct subordinates, and if they do get into such a situation they should request said subordinate to be transferred to another team, same as you would if you have any sort of romantic relationship with a subordinate. Being close personal friends with someone who works under you is a pretty clear conflict of interests

This is what I've been saying almost since I walked into the thread. It's not so much the male/female issue as it is Management socializing with direct reports outside of work is a liability minefield.

If it's two employees on the same level, it's nowhere near the same issue.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,465
This is what I've been saying almost since I walked into the thread. It's not so much the male/female issue as it is Management socializing with direct reports outside of work is a liability minefield.

If it's two employees on the same level, it's nowhere near the same issue.
I mean sure, but that wouldn't explain why these guys are specifically more worried about these scenarios with women than with other men
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,960
I mean sure, but that wouldn't explain why these guys are specifically more worried about these scenarios with women than with other men

It's gender bias at play.

In reality, if Manager A has a very well-known friendship with Employee B outside of work, they're just as likely to be accused of (of suspected of) preferential treatment by the men on their team as the women. I mean, I've seen this. EVERYBODY is looking to come up, and EVERYBODY is looking for excuse for why they don't. Manager A is under threat from everyone.

Women add a layer of scandal, or salaciousness...or something.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,844
I asked you what the solution you might suggest and your answer was understand that men have to be extra careful around women and that's just how it is.

That's not a solution that's empathy for men feeling afraid of women and excluding them from networking as a result.

Which is literally the status quo.
I don't recall saying managers should avoid interacting with coworkers that are women. I never avoided interacting with any women in my job. My point is to don't be naive and think you're immune to any complaints just because you think you're being respectful, that's not how life works. That's being aware of what could happen against your best intentions, not necessarily being afraid of women.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,465
It's gender bias at play.

In reality, if Manager A has a very well-known friendship with Employee B outside of work, they're just as likely to be accused of (of suspected of) preferential treatment by the men on their team as the women. I mean, I've seen this. EVERYBODY is looking to come up, and EVERYBODY is looking for excuse for why they don't. Manager A is under threat from everyone.

Women add a layer of scandal, or salaciousness...or something.
Or you know, this scenario is related to them being worried about accusations of sexual harassment and not just accusations of generic favoritism?
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,960
Or you know, this scenario is related to them being worried about accusations of sexual harassment and not just accusations of generic favoritism?

Is this person also afraid of getting hit by lightning?

Proper workplace edicate and practices are there to protect all parties. Why are you fraternizing with your employees of any gender?
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
It's gender bias at play.

In reality, if Manager A has a very well-known friendship with Employee B outside of work, they're just as likely to be accused of (of suspected of) preferential treatment by the men on their team as the women. I mean, I've seen this. EVERYBODY is looking to come up, and EVERYBODY is looking for excuse for why they don't. Manager A is under threat from everyone.

Women add a layer of scandal, or salaciousness...or something.

Basically a bunch of men making it harder for each other and then every side just blames women.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Would you be saying the same thing about someone who refused to go outside out of the fear that they might be hit by a meteor at random?
Was going to be my question as well. Fake claims against men are an anomaly and shouldn be this boogie man men fear any more than any other incredibly rare event, like a meteor hitting you on the way to your car. Shitty people just buy into the spooky women are coming for your money story because thats how theyre interpreting men getting their comeuppance now that that shit isnt going to be accepted anymore. What they see as a matter of discrimination and power imbalance against men is nothing more than progress, and that scares them.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,009
I mean sure, but that wouldn't explain why these guys are specifically more worried about these scenarios with women than with other men

I don't know how the survey was worded- was there an answer for how many were comfortable with male socializing vs. female? That could be enlightening (it's a bad idea regardless of gender for me either way) but that aside, this part of mercurial's answer is a good explanation why.

In the specific context at hand, you have to ask yourself uncomfortable questions that people may not understand unless they're in that position. If I ask a female subordinate out for a working dinner, is she going to take that at face value or assume I have underhanded motives? Is she going to feel compelled to go even though she doesn't want to? If she goes but didn't want to, will she resent it? If she declines, is she going to assume that a less-than-stellar performance review down the road is related somehow? If she feels it was all benign and coincidental, will she discuss it with a friend who went through a terrible situation of her own and convince her that her impressions were wrong? If an accusation flies, how much evidence do you have to prove your intentions were professional? Would you personally think the risk-reward equation justifies putting yourself out on a limb like that?

If you're a male manager and have any sense at all, you should be asking yourself these types of questions when you interact with a female subordinate precisely becausewomen in the workplace have been mistreated and may interpret your actions in a way that you don't intend. Being aware of that history can influence your decisions every bit as much as being oblivious to it.

Women have been on the receiving end of workplace harassment and quid-pro-quo for so long that by default the assumption that this is a possibility is going to be there for a male supervisor asking a female direct report to socialize after hours. Flat out, it's unavoidable. And not just for Manager A and Employee B, but for everyone who is aware of or observes the interaction.

That's not going to be the case for Male Manager A and Male Employee B- although gay workplace relationships exist, they're nowhere near as common so that won't be the immediate assumption. Mind you, this still has issues of favoritism involved but not the underlying question of "is this going to turn into sexual quid pro quo?"

Is that fair? Absolutely not, but you need to operate in the world in which you ACTUALLY live and be aware of how employees ACTUALLY behave. For both the manager and the employee, it's riskier socializing after hours when opposite sexes are involved.
 
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Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,465
Is this person also afraid of getting hit by lightning?

Proper workplace edicate and practices are there to protect all parties. Why are you fraternizing with your employees of any gender?
Because these people are aware they probably aren't acting properly even though they won't admit it, reflect, or try to actually improve their behavior
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
I don't recall saying managers should avoid interacting with coworkers that are women. I never avoided interacting with any women in my job. My point is to don't be naive and think you're immune to any complaints just because you think you're being respectful, that's not how life works. That's being aware of what could happen against your best intentions, not necessarily being afraid of women.

Then why the focus on women

Anyone could be misconstrued but this isn't 60% of male managers are afraid of working with any subordinates
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,961
Obviously behaving respectfully is a given. I'm not saying don't hold professionals to a high standard of conduct. I am saying that it's foolish to ignore why the recent push for extending basic empathy and respect to women has so many men nervous about interacting with female coworkers.

It speaks to a severe culture problem that needs to be addressed through extended education and support. If it's not addressed, present and future generations will have to keep dealing with the social and political consequences of seething discontent and aggrieved male egos.

Conditioning isn't an "excuse," it's the mechanism by which people gain many of the attitudes that guide their behavior. It needs to be understood and countered with better conditioning.

So I'm for enforcing respectful behavior immediately, no excuses, but I'd also like to see a broad push by companies, media, even the government (fat chance with this administration) to promote empathy and make the everyday woman's experience visible and impossible to ignore.

It's not foolish to ignore it, the reasons are not a good enough excuse because it isn't hard.

They are not conditioned, they are fucking comfortable and moaning about having to give that comfort up.
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
As long as you treat your male workers the same way, and as long as these fears you have don't stop you from employing and promoting women, then I have no issues with what you're doing.

You should track hiring and promotion statistics statistically to ensure that these fears don't subconsciously make you less likely to hire and promote women

Things like promotions and bonuses are handled by a panel independently from me. While I can nominate people to be reviewed by that panel, there has to be objectively verifiable evidence that can be presented to the panel to justify it. I assume that the panel system was developed for the same reason that I do the things that I do.

Like I said, I've never found these interactions to be particularly difficult but I think it would be the height of stupidity to not be considerate of historical workplace dynamics when it comes to these kinds of interactions when it comes to how I interact with others in the workplace. The best manager I've ever had was a woman and taught me to handle things exactly the way she does. She adopted the model despite the fact that there hasn't been an equally sordid history of female superiors abusing male subordinates. It's easy to follow because it's fair.

It's gender bias at play.

In reality, if Manager A has a very well-known friendship with Employee B outside of work, they're just as likely to be accused of (of suspected of) preferential treatment by the men on their team as the women. I mean, I've seen this. EVERYBODY is looking to come up, and EVERYBODY is looking for excuse for why they don't. Manager A is under threat from everyone.

Women add a layer of scandal, or salaciousness...or something.

Women have been historically victimized by men in the workplace and there are simply more opportunities for misunderstandings between the two genders. If a female superior asks a female subordinate to a working dinner, there is less precedent for concern. Same with male-male. Arguably, same with female-male given that male subordinates have not been historically victimized by female superiors. The perception of other employees would be different as well. How many times have we all heard office gossip about Kim and Brad supposedly having a sexual relationship because someone in accounting saw them alone together at a bar on Friday night? How many times have we not heard that kind of salacious gossip when someone saw Brad and Jon in the same context?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,816
This is what I've been saying almost since I walked into the thread. It's not so much the male/female issue as it is Management socializing with direct reports outside of work is a liability minefield.

If it's two employees on the same level, it's nowhere near the same issue.

Agreed.

Pretty much everything said is on point. I think many people came into this thread reading the title as "60% of male managers say they're upset they can't sexually harass anymore." But it's more an issue of liability and the #MeToo movement now putting a spotlight on management socializing with subordinates. I also agree with those that say there shouldn't be outside social activities with management and direct subordinates nor should their be any explicit personal relationships between them (particularly in the cooperate environment). You can find plenty of mentors outside your company if you do a little networking and then you can have as many lunches and dinners as you want. But fairness in actuality and in appearances is important in the workplace. Maybe dinner between Mr. Devereaux and Cindy is totally above board, but co-workers Bob or Janice might think Cindy is only getting the meeting with Mr. Devereaux because she's a size 2. Nothing inappropriate happened but the optics allowed for trouble to be stirred. Most managers and HRs would want to avoid that situation entirely.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
Women have been on the receiving end of workplace harassment and quid-pro-quo for so long that by default the assumption that this is a possibility is going to be there for a male supervisor asking a female direct report to socialize after hours. Flat out, it's unavoidable. And not just for Manager A and Employee B, but for everyone who is aware of or observes the interaction.

That's not going to be the case for Male Manager A and Male Employee B- although gay workplace relationships exist, they're nowhere near as common so that won't be the immediate assumption. Mind you, this still has issues of favoritism involved but not the underlying question of "is this going to turn into sexual quid pro quo?"

Is that fair? Absolutely not, but you need to operate in the world in which you ACTUALLY live and be aware of how employees ACTUALLY behave. For both the manager and the employee, it's riskier socializing after hours when opposite sexes are involved.

You said this wasn't really a Male/female issue now you're talking about women getting quid quo pro sex


Please pick a narrative
 

Yung Coconut

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,267
The only reason you should be afraid of these things are if you know you're a pos and can't help yourself by not acting on the thoughts in your head.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,960
Women have been historically victimized by men in the workplace and there are simply more opportunities for misunderstandings between the two genders. If a female superior asks a female subordinate to a working dinner, there is less precedent for concern. Same with male-male. Arguably, same with female-male given that male subordinates have not been historically victimized by female superiors. The perception of other employees would be different as well. How many times have we all heard office gossip about Kim and Brad supposedly having a sexual relationship because someone in accounting saw them alone together at a bar on Friday night? How many times have we not heard that kind of salacious gossip when someone saw Brad and Jon in the same context?

Again, as a manager, my immediate thought is, "Why...are you going to the bar with any of subordinates?"

Yes, I'm well aware of the disparity of perception. It's very real. But this is in large part a reason why managers should not be fraternizing with their staff without at least openly acknowledging the risks. Because gender dynamics and bias is a problem too big to be solved in the workplace.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,844
Then why the focus on women

Anyone could be misconstrued but this isn't 60% of male managers are afraid of working with any subordinates
Is it that hard to understand? Even friendly casual conversation between a man and a woman can easily be misconstrued as inappropriate/unwanted flirting that could make the woman uncomfortable and feel pressured because you're their manager.
 

TheTurboFD

Banned
Nov 24, 2017
317
I'm not sure what causes these people to feel weird about doing this. I work IT in the healthcare industry and my office has 150 users, 3 of the users are men. I've had many lunches with some of the women and didn't feel uncomfortable for a second. Hell I've been to the bar with some of the managers after hours and never felt weird about it. Then again , I'm also not their manager.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
Agreed.

Pretty much everything said is on point. I think many people came into this thread reading the title as "60% of male managers say they're upset they can't sexually harass anymore." But it's more an issue of liability and the #MeToo movement now putting a spotlight on management socializing with subordinates. I also agree with those that say there shouldn't be outside social activities with management and direct subordinates nor should their be any explicit personal relationships between them (particularly in the cooperate environment). You can find plenty of mentors outside your company if you do a little networking and then you can have as many lunches and dinners as you want. But fairness in actuality and in appearances is important in the workplace. Maybe dinner between Mr. Devereaux and Cindy is totally above board, but co-workers Bob or Janice might think Cindy is only getting the meeting with Mr. Devereaux because she's a size 2. Nothing inappropriate happened but the optics allowed for trouble to be stirred. Most managers and HRs would want to avoid that situation entirely.

Men network with men in the same company all the fucking time

Shit you claim it's not a male/female thing

But your example is one. You went straight to it
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
Again, as a manager, my immediate thought is, "Why...are you going to the bar with any of subordinates?"

Yes, I'm well aware of the disparity of perception. It's very real. But this is in large part a huge reason why managers should not be fraternizing with their staff without at least openly acknowledging the risks. Because gender dynamics and a bias is a problem too big to be solved in the workplace.

I've taken my team to the bar numerous times after an especially tough week or after the closure of an especially tough project. It's fun to blow off steam with the group: you just have to make sure it's a group. Dinner and a couple of Happy Hour cocktails can go a long way towards building camaraderie.

That's not the only team-building thing we do, of course. I've got people who don't drink so we mix it up.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
Is it that hard to understand? Even friendly casual conversation between a man and a woman can easily be misconstrued as inappropriate/unwanted flirting that could make the woman uncomfortable and feel pressured because you're their manager.

If you can't talk to your female employee without it coming off as flirting the dude has issues.

Honestly you make it sound like talking to a woman subordinate is like Russian Roulette with sexual harassment accusation bullets for these Male managers


But hey if we want to completely eliminate networking as the major means of career advancement than I'm down for no colloquial conversations between managers and all subordinates

But we all know networking isn't going anywhere and the 60% stat is hurting women not men.
 
Last edited:

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Is it that hard to understand? Even friendly casual conversation between a man and a woman can easily be misconstrued as inappropriate/unwanted flirting that could make the woman uncomfortable and feel pressured because you're their manager.
Best just not to speak to women right?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,816
Men network with men in the same company all the fucking time

Shit you claim it's not a male/female thing

But your example is one. You went straight to it

I said it's not limited to a male/female thing. But my example was about how easily optics can be misconstrued by 3rd parties, especially when it's a male/female thing. It's like most ethics laws/rules. The primary purpose of those ethics laws is to avoid the "appearance" of wrong-doing, so public confidence is maintained.
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,877
I can't imagine living a life where I can't function normally around half the world's population.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
I said it's not limited to a male/female thing. But my example was about how easily optics can be misconstrued by 3rd parties, especially when it's a male/female thing. It's like most ethics laws/rules. The primary purpose of those ethics laws is to avoid the "appearance" of wrong-doing, so public confidence is maintained.

Yes you basically used an example of sexism to argue for the status quo wherein men can network with each other and women are frequently excluded, as understandable.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
If you can't possibly conceive of a woman feeling like they're being flirted with when they actually weren't, then maybe now I can see where you're coming from.

I mean yes it can happen but that's not the most common occurrence, but believing it is is why these stats and exclusionary behavior happens
 

Books

Alt account
Banned
Feb 4, 2019
2,180
I came in on the tail end of this five page thread and there's been opinions about why it happens.

It's more than just men are slime. It's self preservation. It's not as simple as fire all those people even though it makes a great tweet to retweet for points.
 

Uno Venova

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
User Banned (1 Month): Sexism Over Multiple Posts in this Thread; Prior Severe Infraction for Sexism
with the meteoric outcome of just an accusation im not shocked men in high positions would be nervous.
 

Yourfawthaaa

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,633
Bronx, NY
These people shouldn't be managers.

Yup. The one female manager of our team works her ass off while the 2 dude managers don't back her up or participate at all. They constantly shut her down during meetings and don't take her creative input into anything at all which sucks because she legit has had some great ideas to improve efficiency and employee development. I work for one of the big Tech/software companies and how they treat women in the company is horrible.