it's a problem of modern media discourse in general. it always has to be this feast or famine, tribal warfare nonsense. it is because people now more blithely and naively associate their choices of media with their identity
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6 months later, The Last of Us 2 still haunts me
- Thread starter Aldro
- Start date
It's mainly because you get the same people over and over who basically do not believe nuance is a thing. Everything is in extremes.
And also clearly who whose idea of gaming "discourse" is less about talking about the story and instead about: "Gaming" the story, in that the person just only cares about trying to prove the writers wrong.
Exact same experience for me as I just started replaying the game last week. My biggest problem on my first playthrough was the pacing. It felt like the game was constantly shifting focus right as it would build up any momentum. 2nd time around, knowing what to expect and more prepared for how emotionally draining it is, I was able to kind of sit back and just enjoy it as a game. I'm having much more fun this time around with the combat and trying different approaches to scenarios and levels. With NG+ you also have all weapons and upgrades already unlocked from the start which can drastically change up tactics.
The whole game felt like an exploration of loss, despair and other negative emotions with very little hope or joy to be found anywhere. I wouldn't say it haunts me but I don't enjoy thinking about it and have no desire to watch clips from it or play it again.
I feel the same kind of aversion towards anything relating to TLG because of how upsetting parts of that was but there was still something beautiful to it as well. I just never felt that kind of silver lining to what was happening in TLOU2.
I feel the same kind of aversion towards anything relating to TLG because of how upsetting parts of that was but there was still something beautiful to it as well. I just never felt that kind of silver lining to what was happening in TLOU2.
It's a masterfully crafted and beautifully designed game about despicable people doing despicable things for nonsensical reasons in utterly contrived circumstances, often with cartoon-levels of cruelty and competency at odds with the supposedly 'grounded' worldbuilding.
I didn't find it illuminating, surprising, thought-provoking or compelling at all, just tedious and poorly paced. Better than the average AAA videogame story? Sure, but that's not a high bar to clear.
The first game told a simpler story held together by believable and evolving character relationships (not just Ellie and Joel, but also Joel and Tess, Joel and Bill, Henry and Sam, Ellie and David etc.) with each relationship informing the larger story and the decision Joel makes at the end. THAT is the game that has stuck with me over time and the sequel doesn't hold a candle to it, especially when it comes to character relationships, where people coming together or drifting apart just seems like a roll of the dice or whatever the story needs for some extra stakes or tension.
I was super intrigued by the premise, especially when they have the balls to kill off a major character early on, and the perspective shift in the midgame, but the game just didn't deliver on it.
Amazing acting, combat flow, sound design and art direction carry the experience and there is undeniable genius in the framing of some cutscenes and transitions... I enjoyed it for those reasons, but the overall story and concept? Nah, I didn't feel it.
I didn't find it illuminating, surprising, thought-provoking or compelling at all, just tedious and poorly paced. Better than the average AAA videogame story? Sure, but that's not a high bar to clear.
The first game told a simpler story held together by believable and evolving character relationships (not just Ellie and Joel, but also Joel and Tess, Joel and Bill, Henry and Sam, Ellie and David etc.) with each relationship informing the larger story and the decision Joel makes at the end. THAT is the game that has stuck with me over time and the sequel doesn't hold a candle to it, especially when it comes to character relationships, where people coming together or drifting apart just seems like a roll of the dice or whatever the story needs for some extra stakes or tension.
I was super intrigued by the premise, especially when they have the balls to kill off a major character early on, and the perspective shift in the midgame, but the game just didn't deliver on it.
Amazing acting, combat flow, sound design and art direction carry the experience and there is undeniable genius in the framing of some cutscenes and transitions... I enjoyed it for those reasons, but the overall story and concept? Nah, I didn't feel it.
media and engagement with it becoming this unnuanced, high school lunch room food fight that is now part of peoples personal identity is a pillar of late stage capitalism. the corps who make this stuff want you to fight to the death online over star wars because it ultimately gets more eyes and more people to pay more money into star wars.
if you write love letters or hate diatribes over this crap you are doing free marketing for a corp and are basically part of the problem
I loved mgs when it came out. When I heard you get to control snake for a little bit and then become someone named Raiden I decided I didn't want to try it. I was around 18 at the time.
I still haven't played it but it's not because I'm angry about the switchero, it's just time constraints. So I can totally see why people were upset you didn't get to play as ellie the whole time. Everything else associated with the "controversy" around Abby smacked of utter bs to me and was extremely phobic.
@op I beat it and then was replaying it to get the plat but I haven't touched it in months. But I usually read threads or articles about tlou2 cause it keeps resonanting with people. Definitely playing it a second time is more relaxing and you can mess with the settings to make it as easy or challenging as you want. Plus you notice way more stuff especially with the back and forth between cut scenes the second time
Someone already posted the first one but I wanted to say that I've been watching one of these weekly since July:
and
That second video is such an excellent recap of the full TLoU 1 + 2 experience.
First game that I can't get out of my mind. I'm not sure when I'll go for a second playthrough but I'll probably enjoy it a lot more considering it's already become my favorite game of the generation.
and
That second video is such an excellent recap of the full TLoU 1 + 2 experience.
First game that I can't get out of my mind. I'm not sure when I'll go for a second playthrough but I'll probably enjoy it a lot more considering it's already become my favorite game of the generation.
according to Neil Druckmann, for most of the production, Ellie was meant to kill Abby at the end.
There's so many cocky opinions that like to proclaim that "killing Abby wouldn't have made sense" or that "leaving Abby alive defeats the purpose of the game".
The truth is that its similiar to the first game where the player is meant to be uncertain wether the correct decision was made.
I mean, Ellie's sudden change of heart to try and regain some of her humanity at the end is amicable and all but it doesn't suddenly change the facts. She murdered her way across the country, often without provocation or even fully knowing who's in her way. What you're describing is a fairly tale where the sudden realization of what Ellie has done would magically undo all the bad.
It does not. Much like how Joel, despite spending several years being a "good" person, eventually paid the price for his past actions.
ellie doing all that senseless murdering and then not even taking what she thought she wanted at the end makes her come off even worse, like a fussy child who can't make the big decision for herself. and she rightfully pays a personal price for her brattish behavior.
Where does the game say that revenge is bad?
Where does it do this moralising?
It's a more complicated narrative especially because of Joel not being some angel but a murderer that got his own redemption arc in the context of game but not in the world.
There's plenty of context to say that both quests for revenge is justified.
"REVENGE IS BAD" is such a simplistic reading of the game. But I guess if you wanted a dad simulator and got this game then you'd be disappointed.
Hmm what I think is that ellie has this personal searing connection with Abby and random dudes you kill on the way are just in the way and cannon fodder. OK,so that is basically proving your ludo theory.
But a lot of time passes between when Joel dies and she confronts Abby at the end. A lot of time relative to the burning revenge she is feeling in her heart and over time it becomes a more cold stomach turning vengeance. She kills several of abbys friends. She's got a lot of time on the road to think about what happened. Dina leaves her.
Plus when she finally gets to Abby she's up on a pole like conan was at the tree of woe in the arnie movie. She's weak and exhausted. Lev, a little kid, is with her and that will make a difference when you're deciding whether or not to kill someone (I assume!). Ellies fingers are fucked. She's experienced real pain and loss on her revenge journey and at the end I think she is just sapped of her energy and will
Oh wow, I didn't know this... I feel this would have been the superior artistic choice. It would have completely re-contextualized the final scene with Ellie. They could even have left the changed starting screen intact, to hint at Lev's fate after Abby's demise.
the problem of video games in general is the player's want of a hero to worship or a heroic avatar. while i think the game is flawed in how it handles it it's nice to see someone attempt to make you control a genuinely bad person who self-justifies shitty actions, ruins their own life and then is too much of a indecisive coward to even redeem the perceived reward of their revenge at the end.
I'm not saying I wanted a Dad Simulator, its just that the dynamic of Joel and Ellie was easily the best part of TLOU 1 and a bright spot in a extremely dark setting.
Take that away with a gruesome death, combine that with the game trying to make us like and play as the character responsible, and then at the last second go "lol nah" is gonna piss off a lot of people. I saw a LOT of bad reactions to the ending.
I really dont understand the Ellie love as well.
She treated everyone around her like garbage and ended up alone
I went into the game after hearing some of the discourse about it, and main plot beats were already spoiled. I expected to absolutely hate Abby, but I felt she was a vastly better person and character.
ellie is a bad person who mass murders anyone in her way because someone killed her surrogate daddy and at the end is too much of a fussy child to do the job so it makes all the deaths she caused even more meaningless. it's a pretty subversive message honestly, just not executed very well by the game creators.
i'm not going to empathize with her, sorry lol
If you consider humans in general with thrash sure.
People like Ellie and Joel because they're flawed humans who try.
But liked Abby as well. Even though she violently killed Joel with a club for her ow' gratification, in front of what might been his kid. People forget that in the ole' Abby is chill and Ellie not discussion.
I think thats what upset so many people. Ellie goes through a literal army of people for revenge and its just whatever, but when the time comes to actually get the job done the plot takes it away and is like "IS REVENGE REALLY THE ANSWER?" like maybe ask me that 200 bodies ago?
I think that can be done though. Compare the reactions to Joel's out of player's decision at the end of TLOU1 and Ellie's at the end of 2 and see the difference in satisfaction/reaction/civility.
I understand the feeling op. One of the greatest games ever made, and I'm glad I got to play it.
No other game has made me feel so exhausted.
No other game has made me feel so exhausted.
While I'll disagree that saying Ellie can be surmised as: "bad" is being simplistic.
I do think you're right about people wanting hero worship. People want to play characters for whom they can agree with their actions or if they do bad stuff, it's because they so choose to do it. So when you get a character doing bad things that is out of their control, they get angry.
Which I think in a way goes to show why talking story discourse is always so bad. Because for as much as some people wish to wax words, it's more about trying to pretend to be the smartest than making some actual good point. It's why people reduce stories down to one simple message, cause actually going through the work to examine more beyond that is hard.
the fact that it's unclear whether it's an intentional subversive message or huge ludonarrative problem is among the reasons why TLOU2's storytelling is flawed. not exactly worthy of all the whining and crying and infighting but a problem worth pointing out.
I think the game is trying to tell us that everyone can act "trashy" when pushed and if one is not strong enough to overcome grief and hate. Calling Ellie a trash person kinda seems like the contrary to the games message.
Joel acted badly before he met Ellie (and after, too) and slowly became a better (not perfect) person during TLOU1 and a few years later in 2.
We see the same stages with Abby, beginning at her lowest point at the beginning of TLOU2 and climbing back out of that hole during the game.
Same with Ellie, only with different timing. We see her slowly descend until she hits rock bottom during the last act, then we see the first moments of her way back up.
All three characters are immensely interesting cause they are flawed. They made mistakes and we observe them dealing with that.
Considering how many people believe that Joel was 100% justified and that he was a straight good person, no questions asked, clearly shows that some don't want to look at the entire stories.
Joel can't be a bad guy, he's the player character, so he must be good. Is basically the end all be all for some.
It's less: "Did Joel do a bad thing at the end?" and more: "Why were the Fireflies wrong?"
i think anyone expecting a lot of player agency and self-inserted morality in a game like TLOU2 which has a more deliberate design and directorial command over the narrative is part of the problem
The point I was making though is the discussion regarding said decision was far more civil and not as hotly contended. Yes there was debates about it but I didn't see levels of "OH FUCK OFF" like I did with 2's big ending decision.
the pacing/structure totally works against the game yeah, probably my biggest issue with it as well
Because again, ultimately, it was in many people's eyes a far simpler discussion. Because a lot of people who aren't that great at debating were able to simply justify Joel's actions by putting all the blame on the Fireflies.
It's why you have such a reaction to Part 2, because to them Part 2 is telling them that they were wrong.
I agree with this observation but I'm unsure if that's because of TLoU2's execution or the online discourse becoming even more toxic and polarized since the release of the first game. Op top of that, we have the misogyny/bigotry factor muddying things up, so a reasonable debate about the ending is all but impossible in most online spaces.
Yep, Part II made me dislike Ellie and tbh ending was pretty good. She got what she deserved after all. Kid Ellie was so much interesting, hence why very first flashback in Part II is probably the highlight imo.
I remember it differently, it was all about "Joel is a bad guy and I hated doing that" on one end and "I would've done the exact same thing/If you were a father you would understand" on the other.
While I don't think about it now, I have thought about the game for a week or two after finishing it. It's pretty bonkers to me because that never happened with any other form of media, let alone a videogame.
Another thing is that I finished the first game (for the first time) just about 6 months before Part 2 released and I wasn't that engrossed in it, even thought it was pretty overrated.
Part 2 is just on a whole different level - story, characters, writing, atmosphere, visuals, direction, sound design. Everything is absolutely top notch and ND pulled off something incredible.
Right from the beginning, you know, after that part.. you can feel this game is going to be an experience. A positive one? A negative one? Ambivalent? Depressing? Hopeful? This is up to you, the player. One thing is for sure - something is going to resonate within you while playing it and after finishing it.
The climax of the game, the final fight between Ellie and Abby made me so mad and disgusted. I didn't want to do what the game "forced" me to, and I never felt anything like that before while playing a game. It's definitely a rollercoaster of emotions and it's not that farfetched that someone can linger on its ending & themes months after finishing it.
Another thing is that I finished the first game (for the first time) just about 6 months before Part 2 released and I wasn't that engrossed in it, even thought it was pretty overrated.
Part 2 is just on a whole different level - story, characters, writing, atmosphere, visuals, direction, sound design. Everything is absolutely top notch and ND pulled off something incredible.
Right from the beginning, you know, after that part.. you can feel this game is going to be an experience. A positive one? A negative one? Ambivalent? Depressing? Hopeful? This is up to you, the player. One thing is for sure - something is going to resonate within you while playing it and after finishing it.
The climax of the game, the final fight between Ellie and Abby made me so mad and disgusted. I didn't want to do what the game "forced" me to, and I never felt anything like that before while playing a game. It's definitely a rollercoaster of emotions and it's not that farfetched that someone can linger on its ending & themes months after finishing it.
We are talking about a fictional story too
Everyone living in this world is dealing with clickers and has to kill or be killed. Dragging the complete morality of this story to our world also doesn't work.
They're both young. The ending isn't ridiculous it's a part of the narrative of this story. A very important one.
ideally killing tons of people is fucked up. It's a video game.
I do think that Ellie can be forgiven. Most of the people were after her also. Different world.
I think that when you look at the whole picture and the situation Ellie isn't a monster anymore than anyone else that has tried to get revenge and had to kill for it.
What I believe most people look past is that through all of this killing and evil you witness in this game the theme is forgiveness and empathy
the funny thing about that dad logic is joel wasn't her daddy so he was just more or less taking something he wanted because he wanted to not unlike his behavior as a former raider/bandit and he likely made the world a worse place for it
he selfishly wanted a fake daughter so goodbye fireflies, goodbye cure, all because he couldn't get over his own dead daughter
That doesn't make the game right. Its just heavier handed in its message, which can turn people off.
Sure, I imagine there's def an aspect of the whole culture wars thing going on, but I know some people who are most definitely not bigots still getting angry at the ending. Its a cheap cop out to just go "Oh anyone who hated this is just a bigot" (Not saying anyone here is saying that.) Ghostbusters remake all over again...
I've been wanting to play through the game again, but I'm going to wait for a PS5 patch / remaster first.
My Ellie is a straight up garbage person. Killed everyone without batting an eyelid!
Ellie is just a psycho in my eyes now :D
Ellie is just a psycho in my eyes now :D