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Euphoria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,549
Earth
There is no scenario that is "better for this country." All roads lead to the same place.

That's honestly sometimes what it feels like.

I would love to get answers for why the 3 year wait. Right now my brain tells me that it's to do with 2024 election. If so then it feels like they're just playing games when people need real help today, not in 3 years.
 

Pollux

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
940
You're either voting for Republicans or people who desperately want to be Republicans and only pretend to be ever so slightly left so fools like those on this forum continue giving them donations in hopes that next year will finally be better.

We have to give everything we have for 2018! We must take both the senate and house in 2020, this will be it! No, just kidding, now we have to go all out for 2022! Ah shucks, all in for 2024!

They've taken people hook, line, and sinker. They will always find a reason why they can't do what the people who voted for them want -- and they'll blame it on you, the voter, for not voting and donating hard enough, in one of the greatest gaslighting operations of modern times.
Even if that's true, how is that worse than with actual republicans in control of all three branches?
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,116
So what's your solution? Don't vote for dems and then you are sure to get republicans with all the baggage that entails - but somehow in your mind that scenario is better for this country?

There are other ways to effect change besides voting. It's understandable when people feel disillusioned by the process.

I guess they really meant it when they said they want a strong Republican party.
The one campaign promise the party can deliver on without fail.

Seems like it, sadly.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,726
The narrative around BBB has become consumed about how watered down it is. It doesn't excite anyone, just more lamentation about what else is gonna get cut or how what's in it doesn't really affect their immediate lives.

It's become a beacon of Dem incompetence to the point that even when it does pass in whatever form, most won't care because Dems have lost control of the narrative.
 

Euphoria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,549
Earth
As mentioned earlier it's going to be great too if they end up losing in 2024 and the incoming Republican administration takes full credit for this.

Bunch of clowns.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
As mentioned earlier it's going to be great too if they end up losing in 2024 and the incoming Republican administration takes full credit for this.

Bunch of clowns.

On the plus side the 2026 mid-terms should be quite strong for Dems.

You know assuming the GOP doesn't just cancel all future elections and become a dictatorship.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The narrative around BBB has become consumed about how watered down it is. It doesn't excite anyone, just more lamentation about what else is gonna get cut or how what's in it doesn't really affect their immediate lives.

It's become a beacon of Dem incompetence to the point that even when it does pass in whatever form, most won't care because Dems have lost control of the narrative.
I don't think the problem is the narrative as much as they have cut some of the most popular parts of that bill.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,244

Mutual aid and community defense that has nothing to do with state apparatuses.

In short: look to what the Black Panthers were doing in the 1960s, which was a major part of scaring the government into co-opting programs and adopting civil rights measures in order to bring people back into the electoral system.
 

Pollux

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
940
Volunteering for various organizations that help in immediate ways in people's lives like helping the unhoused or feeding people, starting a mutual fund or food pantry, etc.
All great things that everyone should be doing (ideally these things wouldn't be necessary but hey, hopefully we get there someday) but doing those things and not voting because it feels hopeless don't have to be separate. You can do both. Because at the end of the day if you give up on voting for Dems than you end up with a much worse scenario.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,116
All great things that everyone should be doing (ideally these things wouldn't be necessary but hey, hopefully we get there someday) but doing those things and not voting because it feels hopeless don't have to be separate. You can do both. Because at the end of the day if you give up on voting for Dems than you end up with a much worse scenario.

I absolutely agree one can do both. I do myself.

But if people don't vote and do other things because they are disillusioned with process, I don't blame them.

Mutual aid and community defense that has nothing to do with state apparatuses.

In short: look to what the Black Panthers were doing in the 1960s, which was a major part of scaring the government into co-opting programs and adopting civil rights measures in order to bring people back into the electoral system.

This.
 

soul creator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,953
yeah, while I don't think checking out of the political process entirely is "good" (though we must keep in mind that "voting for Democrats" isn't the only form of positive political participation!), it's kind of obvious that it's the risk a party takes when they repeatedly take actions like this, and constantly try to pivot to the next election.

There's a history we can look at. Democratic partisans often like to pretend that each election season is it's own self-contained thing, but obviously that isn't true. For example, running on "we need to protect Roe vs. Wade!" is inherently going to sound more and more like bullshit when you've been saying the same thing for 30 years, and the problems with abortion rights and access still exist (why wasn't it immediately legalized in federal law in 2009 for example so that Roe v. Wade wasn't as necessary? I thought one of the "bare minimum" requirements to being a Democrat was being pro-choice?). And because of that, you will risk people not believing you when you trot out the same script from 1992 again in 2022.

And it doesn't matter if you find that the morally correct position or not for someone to no longer vote, it will happen. And lecturing harder about how you need to vote for more Democrats isn't going to fix that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,759
Even if that's true, how is that worse than with actual republicans in control of all three branches?
I don't know, keeping kids in cages, cutting taxes for the rich, extending paid leave to only the wealthy, disguising lower housing costs as simply being tax credits for property developers, sounds like actual republicans to me.
 

FinalRPG

Member
Oct 27, 2017
580
I don't know, keeping kids in cages, cutting taxes for the rich, extending paid leave to only the wealthy, disguising lower housing costs as simply being tax credits for property developers, sounds like actual republicans to me.

You guys are massively overreacting to the paid leave provision. You're wealthy if you make $2000 over the past 2 years!? It's just there so that people can't start a job and then immediately claim it. Nobody that actually works is being excluded.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
What good is this plan for shit won't become active until Biden is in his final year? What a fucking joke.
 

aftunnels

Banned
Jul 23, 2021
222
You guys are massively overreacting to the paid leave provision. You're wealthy if you make $2000 over the past 2 years!? It's just there so that people can't start a job and then immediately claim it. Nobody that actually works is being excluded.
Why include the $2,000 minimum? What is the difference between someone who made $2,000 and someone who made $2,001?

This is typical Democratic means testing with no clear purpose and that will likely COST more to enforce than it would to just provide the benefit to anyone who worked.
 

GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,371
Can't help but feel depressed regarding the likely future of the country. Biden's approval ratings are plummeting, DINO's like Manchin have basically fucked Biden's legislative agenda, Dems can't agree on anything or pass anything of real significance, the filibuster is still here, the judiciary is in the hands of Trump appointees, and we just lost the Virginia governor's race. Fully expect Dems to get routed in the midterms and the GOP's voter suppression efforts mean Biden is going to have a tough time getting re-elected. I feel like it's a forgone conclusion that Trump or someone worse is going to win the Presidency and then it's full speed ahead to a Russian-style failed Democracy while the planet literally dies. *sigh* Please tell me I'm being alarmist.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,171
its almost as if the public has the memories of goldfish and keeps opting the gop back into positions where they can stall progress.

Politics turning into this thing where people just vote for their team has pretty much given us the hellscape we are in, and politicians love it because they don't actually do anything, no progress, nothing that actually tangibly helps people. Why? They're not voting FOR you, they're voting AGAINST the other side.
 

RLCC14

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,447
Can't help but feel depressed regarding the likely future of the country. Biden's approval ratings are plummeting, DINO's like Manchin have basically fucked Biden's legislative agenda, Dems can't agree on anything or pass anything of real significance, the filibuster is still here, the judiciary is in the hands of Trump appointees, and we just lost the Virginia governor's race. Fully expect Dems to get routed in the midterms and the GOP's voter suppression efforts mean Biden is going to have a tough time getting re-elected. I feel like it's a forgone conclusion that Trump or someone worse is going to win the Presidency and then it's full speed ahead to a Russian-style failed Democracy while the planet literally dies. *sigh* Please tell me I'm being alarmist.
The USA is already an oligarchy as bad as Russia, its just hidden better.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
Politics turning into this thing where people just vote for their team has pretty much given us the hellscape we are in, and politicians love it because they don't actually do anything, no progress, nothing that actually tangibly helps people. Why? They're not voting FOR you, they're voting AGAINST the other side.

true, if you ignore everything that gets passed and all policies set.

this sort of fatalism is what drives voter participation into the ground, which is a major reason why the minority party has been able to lock up so many states.
 

Sirpopopop

_ _ _ w _ _ _
Member
Oct 23, 2017
794
It's almost as if the party can't control stupid voters, it's really hard to get things done when not every member is fully aligned on priorities, and you need 60 votes to get through a filibuster.

But you know the better solution is to not vote and let the fascists win. American politics are like British politics. A whole lot of stupid voters making stupid decisions damning their countries into further irrelevance. It's as if it is in the interests of Conservative parties to keep people dumb so you can just reflexively blame the more liberal parties for everything when they find it hard to do anything because they can't get the numbers needed to do anything and get punished when they actually do things (See: Virginia, New Jersey, 2010, etc.)

Tall4Life tell me what Republicans have done for you in your lifetime. Can you list anything?

At least with Democrats you have ACA, competent natural disaster management, and actually getting out of Iraq & Afghanistan.
 
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Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,116
It's almost as if the party can't control stupid voters, it's really hard to get things done when not every member is fully aligned on priorities, and you need 60 votes to get through a filibuster.

But you know the better solution is to not vote and let the fascists win. American politics are like British politics. A whole lot of stupid voters making stupid decisions damning their countries into further irrelevance. It's as if it is in the interests of Conservative parties to keep people dumb so you can just reflexively the more liberal parties for everything when they find it hard to do anything because they can't get the numbers needed to do anything and get punished when they actually do things (See: Virginia, New Jersey, 2010, etc.

Tall4Life tell me what Republicans have done for you in your lifetime. Can you list anything?

At least with Democrats you have ACA, competent natural disaster management, and actually getting out of Iraq & Afghanistan.

See, the thing about threatening people with the GOP winning instead is that many of us live under them already. If I didn't vote in the next election, nothing changes for me. I'll still live under the fascists you are talking about.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,466
Sweden
It's almost as if the party can't control stupid voters, it's really hard to get things done when not every member is fully aligned on priorities, and you need 60 votes to get through a filibuster.

But you know the better solution is to not vote and let the fascists win. American politics are like British politics. A whole lot of stupid voters making stupid decisions damning their countries into further irrelevance. It's as if it is in the interests of Conservative parties to keep people dumb so you can just reflexively the more liberal parties for everything when they find it hard to do anything because they can't get the numbers needed to do anything and get punished when they actually do things (See: Virginia, New Jersey, 2010, etc.

Tall4Life tell me what Republicans have done for you in your lifetime. Can you list anything?2

At least with Democrats you have ACA, competent natural disaster management, and actually getting out of Iraq & Afghanistan.
1. you don't need 60 senate votes if you abolish the filibuster

2. the senate is inherently undemocratic and gives disproportionate power to rural areas. solving that issue would take a long time, but maybe a first step would be to ensure that the US no longer has colonies without representation in congress. it is a disgrace that in our lord's year of 2021, if you reside in the wrong parts of the country, you don't have full democratic representation. granting statehood to each territory should have been the first step democrats took after taking both chambers of congress and the presidency.

3. if you can't get people to vote for you, maybe introspection about how you can better inspire people to vote for you is more productive than calling voters stupid

4. fascism has rigged the system and made it more difficult for some groups of people to vote than for others. election participation rares are significantly stratified by racial groups and income brackets and this is by design and the consequence of carefully designed racist and classist policies. calling people who were disenfranchised by racist and classist policies stupid is not only dumb as hell, but also comes off as racist and classist
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,155
and the GOP's voter suppression efforts mean Biden is going to have a tough time getting re-elected.
Even without those efforts, Biden's not going to get re-elected. Unless there's a dramatic turnaround soon, he'll have absolutely nothing to campaign on. "I know I completely failed to deliver on basically all my campaign promises, including all the biggest, most pressing ones, after winning a trifecta and spending an entire election cycle telling you all what an effective and pragmatic leader I am, but pls give vote again kthnx" is a losing message.

Hell, he might not even be the nominee. He's quite old and things could very easily go bad enough that he gets primaried.
 

Deleted member 34725

User-requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,058
At least with Democrats you have ACA, competent natural disaster management, and actually getting out of Iraq & Afghanistan.
While I agree with the general sentiment that Dems are the lesser of 2 evils, you can also add a lot of horrific things that were done under Dem presidents.

I vote for them to reduce harm, but you can't just blame voters for them constantly losing. They lose because they are mostly status quo garbage.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Even without those efforts, Biden's not going to get re-elected. Unless there's a dramatic turnaround soon, he'll have absolutely nothing to campaign on. "I know I completely failed to deliver on basically all my campaign promises, including all the biggest, most pressing ones, after winning a trifecta and spending an entire election cycle telling you all what an effective and pragmatic leader I am, but pls give vote again kthnx" is a losing message.

Hell, he might not even be the nominee. He's quite old and things could very easily go bad enough that he gets primaried.
If Harris runs in 2024 we may as well just forfeit the race.
 

Br3wnor

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,982
Can't help but feel depressed regarding the likely future of the country. Biden's approval ratings are plummeting, DINO's like Manchin have basically fucked Biden's legislative agenda, Dems can't agree on anything or pass anything of real significance, the filibuster is still here, the judiciary is in the hands of Trump appointees, and we just lost the Virginia governor's race. Fully expect Dems to get routed in the midterms and the GOP's voter suppression efforts mean Biden is going to have a tough time getting re-elected. I feel like it's a forgone conclusion that Trump or someone worse is going to win the Presidency and then it's full speed ahead to a Russian-style failed Democracy while the planet literally dies. *sigh* Please tell me I'm being alarmist.

Mostly accurate though I think a combo of SCOTUS overturning Roe and trump being the nominee MIGHT give Dems a shot but nominee would probably have to be someone besides Biden or Harris. But your scenario is much more plausible, just gonna slide into Oligarchy while most people must bury their heads into their phones/the sand.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,137
Sydney
I feel like the SCOTUS is an issue Dems can no longer really run on given how much they've lost control of it. Breyer isn't even retiring.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
Can't help but feel depressed regarding the likely future of the country. Biden's approval ratings are plummeting, DINO's like Manchin have basically fucked Biden's legislative agenda, Dems can't agree on anything or pass anything of real significance, the filibuster is still here, the judiciary is in the hands of Trump appointees, and we just lost the Virginia governor's race. Fully expect Dems to get routed in the midterms and the GOP's voter suppression efforts mean Biden is going to have a tough time getting re-elected. I feel like it's a forgone conclusion that Trump or someone worse is going to win the Presidency and then it's full speed ahead to a Russian-style failed Democracy while the planet literally dies. *sigh* Please tell me I'm being alarmist.
As things stand now, you're not.

But anything can happen. A scandal people actually care about. An amazing Biden economy. Maybe one or two SC justices retire or pass while Dems have control.

But outside of some unexpected shit, I think you're mostly spot on. A Trump presidency barely bothered people. An insurrection didn't. Trump trying to steal the election before he lost and then after he lost didn't either. Apparently gas prices and CRT is what really makes Americans angry.

America is very angry right now and things won't change until it's not.
 

Sirpopopop

_ _ _ w _ _ _
Member
Oct 23, 2017
794
See, the thing about threatening people with the GOP winning instead is that many of us live under them already. If I didn't vote in the next election, nothing changes for me. I'll still live under the fascists you are talking about.

Sure if you live in a red state that's not competitive, and has horrible policies, and your local level is also fully Republican, then that sucks, and I understand your apathy. You probably want big changes that incidentally affect you, but have no way to actually make it happen beyond tossing money to non-local campaigns.

But for others of us who have stakes in the game, and live in competitive areas, well we still need to vote no matter what.

1. you don't need 60 senate votes if you abolish the filibuster

2. the senate is inherently undemocratic and gives disproportionate power to rural areas. solving that issue would take a long time, but maybe a first step would be to ensure that the US no longer has colonies without representation in congress. it is a disgrace that in our lord's year of 2021, if you reside in the wrong parts of the country, you don't have full democratic representation. granting statehood to each territory should have been the first step democrats took after taking both chambers of congress and the presidency.

3. if you can't get people to vote for you, maybe introspection about how you can better inspire people to vote for you is more productive than calling voters stupid

4. fascism has rigged the system and made it more difficult for some groups of people to vote than for others. election participation rares are significantly stratified by racial groups and income brackets and this is by design and the consequence of carefully designed racist and classist policies. calling people who were disenfranchised by racist and classist policies stupid is not only dumb as hell, but also comes off as racist and classist

1. It's hard to abolish the filibuster with only 50 votes, and you need to rely on a Senator from a deep red state to get it done.

2. I absolutely agree with this. A lot of Democrats actually agree with this too. There was a push for at least DC statehood. Didn't end up going anywhere because we can't get past part 1.

3. Inspiration doesn't really work when it is proven time and time again that voters simply reflexively backlash against government during the midterms. What are your thoughts on a better message?

4. Calling voters who vote simply because of a reflexive "throw them all out they are greedy crooks message" or because they fall for anti-vaxxer or CRT bullshit makes me a racist? Seriously...



While I agree with the general sentiment that Dems are the lesser of 2 evils, you can also add a lot of horrific things that were done under Dem presidents.

I vote for them to reduce harm, but you can't just blame voters for them constantly losing. They lose because they are mostly status quo garbage.

Sure... plenty of horrific things were done under Democratic presidents. Can you name a time recently when Republican presidents stopped those policies? I can only think of the First Step Act, but even that is just a pebble throw., and that was something which passed the House/Senate with no Democrat opposition and the only opposition was Republican.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,116
Sure if you live in a red state that's not competitive, and has horrible policies, and your local level is also fully Republican, then that sucks, and I understand your apathy.

But for others of us who have stakes in the game, well we still need to vote no matter what.

And that's where many of us are. Apathy is completely understandable in general.

As I said earlier, voting is not the only way to affect change for one's community.