You should consider removing that bit in your first sentence.
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3DRealms announces Graven, an action adventure FPS and spiritual successor to Hexen II (Coming to All Platforms)
- Thread starter E_i
- Start date
You should consider removing that bit in your first sentence.
I mean it's pretty simple: If you're aware of the issues, and still give 3Drelms money, you are literally supporting bigots. They've made it clear they stand with their bigoted developers. Even if you just want to play the game and don't agree with some of the views inside these studios, you are financialy supporting their platform which they have used for hate.
I only know in passing of this situation, having never played a Dragon Quest in my life and was unaware he was still employed. I didn't even know a new one had been announced. 🤷♀️
To clarify: Of course people should raise a fuss there too, but we can't be expected to all know about all of them.
Big difference here for me personally js that in SE's case, it's mainly one asshole that is legally kinda hard to get rid of (and who gets called out often here, anyway). In 3DRs' case tho, it feels more like a systemic issue that is embedded in the overall culture of the company and its collaborators.
Personally I can deal with singular Assholes in a larger team (as I still want to be able to buy basically anything) but here it seems different. I'm also not a fan of guilt by association in general but there is a lot of smoke here.
So it's okay to put money into a shitty person's bank account as long as the product you are getting doesn't reflect their views? You are legit funding bigotry.
If you're going to stop buying products from developers/manufacturers that has one, two or even ten bigots employed, then you're going to find it hard to enjoy anything. Whether known publically or not, huge companies are bound to have a few bad seeds no matter where you look.
Labeling people as bigot-supporters for expressing interest in this game is simply not the way to do things though. Make people aware of it sure, but some people are taking it a bit too far in here.
Don't even try to compare this to other situations. They are outwardly catering to the alt-right as that makes up a big portion of their audience. https://www.resetera.com/threads/bigoted-devs-part-of-3d-realms’-realms-deep-show.281351/
We aren't talking about one or even a few individuals here. 3Drelms offcial stance was to walk back on removing ion fury's bigoted content. They then stated that they would not 'censor' it, or any other of their games. Buying from the publisher is funding a platform for hate speech.
And those people are trash, never said otherwise. But it's too antagonistic to say people support bigots when they state an interest in this game. If they talked favorably about the people in your link then it would be another thing entirely.
Liking the Hexen/Heretic games and saying you're looking forward to this is not the same as saying you like 3DRealms as a company or support anything they do outside of their actual games.
I mean, don't forget that they had promised donating to an LGBT cause and then -- when that turned out to be an awful 'look' for them -- decided to start downplaying everything immediately. We got any receipts on that donation of theirs? Because if we don't, I'm willing to bet it never happened. And if it never happened, that's verifiable lost money to a good cause on account of homophobes and transphobes which amounts to serious damage against that community in my opinion.
User banned (2 weeks): Excessive hostility against other members, continuing thread derail, ignoring moderation warning. Posters can raise concerns without attacking other members.
If you are coming into this thread posting "this looks cool" and choosing to ignore that 3D Realms is a fucking trash fire of a company because you "like Hexen", you are a shitty human being. If you choose to buy the game because you "like Hexen" and want to ignore where your money is going, then you are a shitty human being.
They said that they wouldn't mind buying a game from bigots if the game appealed to them and if bigotry wasn't embedded into the game itself. Regardless of the content of the game, they are supporting bigots by buying their game.
I don't believe they are shitty human beings for doing it. Tone deaf perhaps, but that is taking it a bit far. I mean how much of this board is buying Cyberpunk? They aren't all shitty humans for doing so, though it is, again, tone deaf and potentially problematic in respects.
It's sad that arcadey FPSes got their start as an anti-Nazi statement because Nazis are an enemy type that we don't have to feel bad about shooting, and now that they're retro they're promoting the Brutal Doom guy.
The only difference between Nazis and Neo-Nazis is public support and opportunity, and they're gotten much more of both in recent times.
The only difference between Nazis and Neo-Nazis is public support and opportunity, and they're gotten much more of both in recent times.
What's your point? That I should continue to give money to bigots when I know they are bigots? I'm not coming after the people that are buying these games blissfully unaware of the company's stances. I have a problem with people that see the bigotry and choose to ignore it in favor of getting the game they want.
The point is that we live on a shitty capitalist system and people deals with it the best they can. Is ok to bring attention to these issues, is ok to make threads and rise awareness of these issues, is ok to spread the message that 3D realms is a shitty company that sides with bigots. Is not ok to call people 'shitty' because they buy a game.
You probably consume things from worse companies that 3D Realms so does that make you shitty? I don't think so, why would you think buying a game makes you a shitty person? Every one chooses the battles they want or can, maybe people love 'Hexen' a lot and they want to enjoy it. Maybe they won't buy any other game from 3D Realms and will criticise it openly, but they really want to play Hexen, that don't make them shitty person in the same way ordering from Amazon does not make you a shitty person.
No consuming thing is a personal choice that comes with a lot of personal baggage, but is their own decision and that does not make them shitty. Let people choose their own battles without insulting them.
That there is literally no ethical consumption under capitalism. Child labor, environmental damage, sexist/racist hiring practices, shady marketing practices... everything you buy, literally down to the shirt on your back, is likely as deserving of your scorn as this game. Outside of standing naked in a field you literally cannot escape it.
Don't know that'ss the view of the person you quoted but I think that the point is, a lot of people(me included) cares more about the suffering caused by proletariat exploration than bigotry. So usually we already made our effort to ignore those issues when consuming products in general to the point where buying a game from a bigoted dev isn't enough to make me feel guilty.
👏👏👏
Pointing out the problematic aspects behind this game's production is one thing, casting moral judgement on someone for being excited for it anyway is another thing unless you literally don't engage with capitalism at all (and given posting here requires a computer and internet connection that would be difficult).
The "that's just capitalism" excuse just doesn't cut it. If you want to ignore the fact that you are supporting alt-right extremism with your funds by buying the game (that you don't need), then so be it. I appreciate the honesty of someone who owns up to that but I don't want to associate or be friends with that person.
Generally speaking, I'd say this is a fairly solid framework for maneuvering around this sort of thing: our society is systematically set up to get you to consume very bad things, all of us walk around with a bunch of poison in our bodies, and often times boiling down everyone's purchasing decisions to a binary buy/don't buy is simply falling into a well-laid trap.
This sort of sentiment, however...
...is pure nonsense. We all interact with capitalism, but that doesn't suddenly mean we're liberated from making ethical choices when it comes to the entertainment we buy. This particular situation is one where there is zero societal pressure to make a purchase, where it is completely clear you're supporting a company that actively platforms and protects bigots, and where the stakes of you passing on a purchase are as low as you not being able to play cool looking video game #12401249. If you aren't willing to exercise your "gonna pass on something that looks really cool because I'll be supporting bigotry" muscle on this one, it's gonna be very, very easy to cast moral judgment on you.
I loved Duke Nukem as a kid, and one of the highlights of this year has been formally becoming a retro shooter person, including playing a bunch of Heretic. But 3D Realms is fresh off of pandering to GamerGate folks, is promoting a ridiculous amount of racists, and we need as many folks as possible to be telling them to fuck off. You don't get to be like "eh, kill the artist" and not expect that to resonate as a (bad) moral choice.
If the game has those views or not, you'd still be directly supporting bigots with your money. Knowingly so.
But this one is... *checks notes* ... Special!
It's kind of sad to see what shit rhetoric is being peddled on the gaming side just so people can excuse buying games by people who publically promote fucking Nazis. There's no sugarcoating that anymore after the event. The people who created Hatred are Nazis, pretty much every single one of them. The other thread has more than enough receipts.
Promoting these people means accepting their shit, it means condoning their shit. And spare me the "no ethical consumption" drivel, this isn't about eating environmentally friendly, this is about not buying a toy to not line the pockets of fucking Nazi enablers, have a goddamn backbone, people.
In general i think its good to boycot. I boycot as much as i can. For example i buy games second hand if i dont want to support the dev/pub. But can you always be ethical in everything you do/buy? Is every clothing you own 100% ethical? Are you sure? Most stuff you buy in general stores are not ethical. Only if you truly go out of your way. I just dont think its fair to blame people. But ofcourse its good to encourage people to boycot. Just dont label them as bad people. That doesnt help and wont inspire people to do better.
See the post above yours. People armed with info about these devs that choose to buy the games anyway suck. They are shitty individuals and I stand by that statement.
You dont have to support people who are unethical. But I dont think it's fair to jump at people who may not care as much. It's completly fair to denounce the devs or publishers in question but going after someone who might be interested in the game sounds a bit of reach. After all, the same logic can be applied to nearly everything.
You surely plan to buy a new console or computer part soon ? Well, guess what, there's a chance you might support slavery from Uyghur camps in China.
Your entire lifestyle might be built on someone else suffering in the world.
Then again, I'm completly with you on that matter: You're totally within your right to denounce the devs or the game. And I think that people should be allowed to come in those threads to remind everyone the kind of persons these devs/pubs are and that they might support them.
But I feel like if we're going to start going that way, which is to jump at the people buying those games, it'll have to be the full way, which means banning discussions about these titles AND these consoles. Which means there'll barely have any discussion here.
Many people on this forum are going to have a Really Bad Time when Cyberpunk 2077 comes out in November.
Just curious: what does Apogee have to do with Heretic/Hexen?
I was under the impression that the franchise was a Raven Software/id Software joint. How is 3D Realms positioned to announce a spiritual successor?
I mean, then again, I understand why someone would feel upset by other people's decisions. But as some others said, going by the same logic, those people too despite being in the known still use things or buy things that support terrible things. And if we're to acknowledge that buying this game is a terrible thing to do, then discussions about this game should be banned. But if we're to do that we'll have to ban discussions about a LOT of things. Including the upcoming consoles/hardware. Not that I'm against that, mind you, but there wont be much to discuss in the end.
Holy shit, this really brings me back to the good old days. I'll definitely check it out. I loved Heretic and Hexen. This looks glorious!
I see the point.
The long and short of it is that we need to realize that a silent decision has been made to platform *just about* every game on this forum within reason. Obviously, the same attitude has not been taken with, say, influencers and YouTube personalities. The central guiding light in this decision, whenever it was made and by whoever it was made was almost certainly what you describe: this is a gaming forum, and as much as we may not like it, we need to be able to discuss each and every notable game that comes along. Even the ones that, when platformed, probably do some non-zero damage to very vulnerable communities. This has amounted to, apparently, plenty of sub-communities leaving the forum.
Now, since we know that, for example, both the Harry Potter game and Cyberpunk for example will both get (probably very large and well-constructed) "Official Threads" that, just by virtue of their existence will cause some non-zero damage to vulnerable communities (I do not disagree with DukeNukum's assertion here that supporting these people has an association, nomatter how much we do not philosophically support them), we need to find some way, as a forum, to make a meaningful, constructive and well-intentioned distinction between buying and playing a game that emits no questionable material, and supporting bigotry wholesale. Like, we just have to, and I hope that the administrators and moderators on this forum are talking about this *now* and thinking about how to find a better meeting ground, because people do not like (and it's reasonable that they don't like this) being accused by strangers on the internet of some of the worst things you can do that doesn't involve direct violence.
And no amount of rat-holing and bike-shedding about background influences, such as Capitalism, are going to outright "solve" the problem. Because the feelings of people who feel this way are legitimate, reasoned, and understandable, but they simply are not reflective of the way a now-majority almost certainly feel on this forum (post some exodus's, of course). So I hope that the ResetEra team can be a bit clearer about the decision that they have already made as regards this stuff. I don't feel like pointing fingers at specific mods or things of that nature, but we have just... got to find a better way of dealing with the frustrations surrounding these issues.
Sorry, this feels like an insane derail here so I'm going to leave my suggestions at that.
In this case, you're also funding an indie company, who frequently aren't in any bargaining position for who they choose to publish with, and can actually earn independence and/or freedom of choice with funding. Unless someone has receipts that the developers are specifically shitty as well (which is the problem in the case of stuff like the games made by the Hatred, Postal or Ion Fury developers, and why they don't deserve support), which no-one has yet to do.
I'm an artist, I went to art college, one of the first things you learn as a professional in this field is that you DO NOT separate art from the artist. Art is political, always.
Its a weak ass excuse for supporting bigotry and a lazy way to wash your hands off problematic behaviours.
If we care about video games as a medium I think it's really important not to separate the two and have a discussion on accountability
Its a weak ass excuse for supporting bigotry and a lazy way to wash your hands off problematic behaviours.
If we care about video games as a medium I think it's really important not to separate the two and have a discussion on accountability
but would you criticise are for having it displayed in the gallery of a bigoted owner?
like the graven devs aren't being called into question (as far as i know)
An artist doesn't necessarily choose who obtains their work, the most they can do is withhold rights to publishing their estate (because owning the physical artwork does not give you rights to reproduce it/publish it/sell rights to etc) so this comparison makes little sense imo
I don't necessarily agree that these industries should be compared (for one political agency is far more discussed and in depth in fine art, in fact most of the statements are political in nature and purely decorative arts are reserved for design) beyond the fact that these are forms of entertainment through individual/collective expression. But the distribution organisation and its ethics are completely different, just like film, music, theatre etc.
Gravendevs are beneficiaries of 3d realms. Imo that's enough not to support the project, sadly.
i just disagree with the notion that they had their choice of suitors or could have just published on their own, and choosing to work with 3d realms means they should be painted with the same brush
there is so much more nuance than that and, for all we know, this was the only valid option available to them
that's not to say people should just support this game in spite of 3d realms, if you don't feel comfortable giving them money then don't, i just don't think the seperate the art from the artist argument even applies when the artist has (again, as far as i know) done nothing
I disagree that perceived nuance should take priority in making an opinion on teaming up with a bigoted partner. It comes across as forcing yourself to look for an excuse. Of course there are nuances. But with the amount of bigotry we are surrounded by and the extremely plausible scenario that American bigots will have their agenda emboldened come November, I think you've got to take a take a look at things like that in a less apologetic way.
As a gay man, as someone who's actively involved in LGBTQ+ community, who has friends/lovers/acquaintances with multiple experiences of hatred, bigotry and intolerance, to me it is a rather simple choice of - if there's funky smell around this, step away. It is safer to do so.
In the end of the day it's one cool looking video game - I personally can live without that. Pity that for example, John Linneman - a man with much more of a platform than I myself, cannot.
It's a shame really. I don't care much for retro shooters or shooters in general but I can empathize. I can't imagine what it would be like if toxic gamergaters and racists had completely taken over a genre that I like. The games look fairly well made too.
As far as cancelling people or calling them human trash goes, not being able to separate the art from the artist is on the lowest rung of offenses as far as I am concerned. I wouldn't break up a friendship over someone liking Ion Maiden or saying that Chinatown is their favorite movie. I'd be an asshole about it and call it out constantly as I'm known to do though.
As far as cancelling people or calling them human trash goes, not being able to separate the art from the artist is on the lowest rung of offenses as far as I am concerned. I wouldn't break up a friendship over someone liking Ion Maiden or saying that Chinatown is their favorite movie. I'd be an asshole about it and call it out constantly as I'm known to do though.
I'm so tired of smashing crates in video games you wouldn't believe it.
Also I get strange Turok 2 vibes from that gameplay video.
Also I get strange Turok 2 vibes from that gameplay video.