3D anime is so ugly and I don't get why it's a thing

Massicot · Jan 5, 2020

In some cases I like it and in others, for whatever reason, the "low framerate" really bothers me. Fire Emblem and some Granblue stuff really looks off to me (which I know I'm in the minority on the later) while some of the examples in here look really great.

RochHoch · Jan 5, 2020

The Kengan Asura anime looks pretty decent for being CGI. Most of the show is just well-coreographed martial arts fights, and it looks alright.

Crossing Eden · Jan 5, 2020

For a pretty explicit difference in how a lower framerate harms animation, one should watch The Dragon Prince. Which is gorgeous and super clean looking:

however, they did the lower framerate thing in the first season, and it looks noticeably worse than the second and especially the third season when the characters are moving around.

residentgrigo · Jan 5, 2020

I never cared for either version of Kengan Ashura but the anime´s team understands what it is doing:

This is a Shounen adaptation btw. Wake me up when All-Rounder Meguru gets one.

collige · Jan 5, 2020

808s & Villainy said:
It can definitely be replicated. Look at the number of artists on youtube who digital emulate painted styles. It's just a ton more work, especially when it has to be done for each frame and kind of defeats the purpose as those cell animators were, ironically, probably trying to emulate a more digital/uniform look with their coloring

I think the solution is definitely going to be better rendering technology. Style transfer is already a thing in machine learning and every year we keep seeing better examples of ways to emulate hand drawn art. For example, this research paper from last year is basically automated rotoscoping and it looks way better than the ugly shading from Berzerk 2017

furikuri · Jan 5, 2020

Segafreak said:
Any tl;dr/conclusion to these articles you just linked? There's a clear difference to the way anime looked in the 70s-90s to the way they look in the 21st century. Call it hand drawn vs computer whatever, I prefer the older style.

The conclusion is that anime are by-and-large still hand drawn (in the videos I posted, you can clearly see the animators drawing by hand). As for the reason why newer anime look "different", look at the very first link I posted:

Animation is drawn as it used to be, then gets scanned so that painting and assembling of all elements is done on a computer

The reason why newer anime look "different" is because of digital coloring and composition; the characteristic "gritty" look of older anime is a result of the ink-and-paint process, in which each drawing is transferred from paper to a cel, painted (from the back of the sheet), photographed, and filmed.

It's fine to prefer the look of older anime—I'm just trying to point out that anime is still drawn as it used to be.

Interestingly enough, a faux-cel aesthetic is achievable using digital tools, as seen in the first episode of Shinya Tensai Bakabon. It's not exactly the same, but it's fun to imagine the possibilities.

Daniel Westlake · Jan 5, 2020

Painting with an astoundingly broad brush there.

Gravidee · Jan 5, 2020

fertygo said:
Man, you have low standard if thinking this example in particular is "pretty damn good"

The thing to keep in mind is that despite RS now being owned by WB, this isn't a high budgeted production or anything, it's still a relatively low resource web series. I think it's impressive to see how they've been improving since the first volume.

First volume looks like this:

The current seventh volume looks like this:

If you've been following this series, there are subtleties in the recent episodes that put even some Japanese CG anime to shame.

zma1013 · Jan 5, 2020

Has anyone already explained WHY these have to have low framerates? Like, it all gets pre-rendered so it's not like a game where they gotta worry about resources in teal time. Is it not just time being used up to render this stuff? Is the time crunch really that bad that we have to endure 5 fps animations?

TheUnseenTheUnheard · Jan 5, 2020

There is definitely a lot of awful full 3D Japanese anime out there.

Astral · Jan 5, 2020

Gravidee said:
The thing to keep in mind is that despite RS now being owned by WB, this isn't a high budgeted production or anything, it's still a relatively low resource web series. I think it's impressive to see how they've been improving since the first volume.

First volume looks like this:

The current seventh volume looks like this:

If you've been following this series, there are subtleties in the recent episodes that put even some Japanese CG anime to shame.

It definitely looks better but some of the movements still bother me. Also, I never realized volumes 6 and 7 were on Crunchyroll. I should probably watch them already.

capitalCORN · Jan 5, 2020

collige said:
I think the solution is definitely going to be better rendering technology. Style transfer is already a thing in machine learning and every year we keep seeing better examples of ways to emulate hand drawn art. For example, this research paper from last year is basically automated rotoscoping and it looks way better than the ugly shading from Berzerk 2017

I swear to God if there's ever an actor field the caliber of film in games...

Edgar · Jan 5, 2020

Gravidee said:
The thing to keep in mind is that despite RS now being owned by WB, this isn't a high budgeted production or anything, it's still a relatively low resource web series. I think it's impressive to see how they've been improving since the first volume.

First volume looks like this:

The current seventh volume looks like this:

If you've been following this series, there are subtleties in the recent episodes that put even some Japanese CG anime to shame.

There is no doubt the CGI for RWBY improved with each season. But honestly i thought the editing , choreography and just overall feel of set pieces took a very obvious hit in quality after Monty passed away.

Chairmanchuck (另一个我) · Jan 5, 2020

For some better positive examples, though its a chinese animation movie, Big Fish & Begonia:

capitalCORN · Jan 5, 2020

Chairmanchuck said:
For some better positive examples, though its a chinese animation movie, Big Fish & Begonia:

Tell me it's good.

808s & Villainy · Jan 5, 2020

Chairmanchuck said:
For some better positive examples, though its a chinese animation movie, Big Fish & Begonia:

I don't think this is CG. Those looks drawn

Chairmanchuck (另一个我) · Jan 5, 2020

capitalCORN said:
Tell me it's good.

I enjoyed it. It is clearly inspired by early Ghibli movies, but set in a chinese mythology setting.

I think Netflix bought the rights and it should be available there.

808s & Villainy said:
I don't think this is CG. Those looks drawn

Its a hybrid. They mix CG with handdrawn.

Rendered to look like a traditional hand-drawn project, then thoroughly enhanced by CG touches and an immersive 3D presentation, "Big Fish & Begonia" commands awe on the strength of its imagery alone

There is a documentary on Youku about it how its done.

capitalCORN · Jan 5, 2020

Chairmanchuck said:
I enjoyed it. It is clearly inspired by early Ghibli movies, but set in a chinese mythology setting.

I think Netflix bought the rights and it should be available there.

Awesome.

Gravidee · Jan 5, 2020

Edgar said:
There is no doubt the CGI for RWBY improved with each season. But honestly i thought the editing , choreography and just overall feel of set pieces took a very obvious hit in quality after Monty passed away.

Yeah, there were parts of 3,4 and 5 where it was definitely not as impressive in terms of fight choreography. On the other hand, I think volume 6 and 7 so far have made some pretty big improvements on that front, pretty close if not equivalent to the Monty days. The Yang/Blake fight against Adam was well done as was the Ace team vs. Rock/Dust Grimm just to name examples.

Orayn · Jan 5, 2020

808s & Villainy said:
I don't think this is CG. Those looks drawn

"It looks good so it's not CG" is basically what you're saying. If you scrutinize individual frames you can tell that it's cel shaded 3D, just really well done like Arc System Works, or The Dragon Prince but flattened out more convincingly.

808s & Villainy · Jan 5, 2020

Chairmanchuck said:
I enjoyed it. It is clearly inspired by early Ghibli movies, but set in a chinese mythology setting.

I think Netflix bought the rights and it should be available there.

Its a hybrid. They mix CG with handdrawn.

There is a documentary on Youku about it how its done.

Orayn said:
"It looks good so it's not CG" is basically what you're saying. If you scrutinize individual frames you can tell that it's cel shaded 3D, just really well done like Arc System Works, or The Dragon Prince but flattened out more convincingly.

That's awesome then. I'd say this is the one time CG has truly emulate the look of hand drawn look

Deleted member 16876 · Jan 5, 2020

crimsonECHIDNA said:
Land of Lustrous though.

Chasing said:
Peak 3D anime. Of course, you need that sweet Toho dough.

Lotus said:
I can't shit on it anymore because Land of the Lustrous and Beastars exists

Tuck said:
Beastars looked good. Blame did too.

Huggy said:
Beastars and Land of the Lustrous look great

Beastars

Chairmanchuck (另一个我) · Jan 5, 2020

808s & Villainy said:
That's awesome then. I'd say this is the one time CG has truly emulate the look of hand drawn look

To be fair you notice which scenes were done by just using the 3DCG models and which are retouched.

Orayn · Jan 5, 2020

Another example of something that mixes 2D and 3D really well is Vinland Saga. Large swathes of the backgrounds, props, crowd scenes, and certain character bodies up close are noticeably CG, but there are a lot of hand-drawn details and touch-ups on top of that. I think that's the way the wind is blowing, to be honest. It makes a lot of sense as a way to efficiently animate with a consistent model, and it looks great as long as extra work is being done on top of that.

Dever · Jan 5, 2020

A lot of 3D anime looks really weird yeah, but I actually thought the dance you posted looked really good lol

collige · Jan 5, 2020

808s & Villainy said:
I don't think this is CG. Those looks drawn

It's both apparently.

https://www.awn.com/animationworld/...mation-big-fish-begonia-arrives-north-america

If I had to guess, I'd say that none of the gifs are CG since getting a rig to animate hair like that would probably be a pain. On a similar note though, when I was googling for the above video I posted, I also found this paper specifically about animation CG anime hair. There's no better pics or video because academia is a racket, but the abstract make it seem like the exact type of technology that needs to be used for CG anime to move "properly"

http://www.bookmetrix.com/detail/chapter/20dcaafb-2e47-4b81-b1f4-261a1be7ce99

-shadow- · Jan 5, 2020

I'll give you Fire Emblem Three Houses, but come one...

mbpm · Jan 5, 2020

thought you were going to talk shit about land of the lustrous at first, whew

HiLife · Jan 5, 2020

3D anime like Beastars? Nah. That's one of the best looking anime this year. And wouldn't Spider Verse be similar? Hand drawn movie to look 3D? Also gorgeous even if it's not anime.

KevdotL · Jan 5, 2020

Chairmanchuck said:
I enjoyed it. It is clearly inspired by early Ghibli movies but set in a Chinese mythology setting.

I think Netflix bought the rights and it should be available there.

I don't see it on Netflix.

Sanka · Jan 5, 2020

Next to studio Orange's anime the new Ultraman series on Netflix looks amazing. Probably the best looking cgi anime out there when it comes to TV shows. The fights and movements are spectacular.

Burrman · Jan 5, 2020

Love it for video games but looks horrible in TV. I don't even like the little 3D stuff they added in the dragon ball movies either.

Orayn · Jan 5, 2020

I've got mixed feeling about the new Ultraman, the fights are great but I really don't care for a lot of the character models of regular, un-armored humans. They seem really stiff and not very expressive.

Nooblet · Jan 5, 2020

Rex Dart: Eskimo Spy said:
If they're designing, modeling, rigging, texturing, lighting, rendering and compositing in 3D to 'save money' over 2D drawings, they're doing it wrong.

Erm no they aren't.

You only have to do it once after which it's a matter of adjusting them to fit the scene rather than redoing and modifications if decided upon later on are easy to do. The models are also infinitely reusable and since it's CG they don't have to work on how each character is lit and shadowed on a fine level on each frame, but instead can just place lights according to where the camera is pointing and everything will be lit and shadowed on it's own. With 2D art you have to draw everytime, everything needs to be lit and shadowed by hand for each frame and modifying later on requires redoing it again.

If you disagree then ask yourself, why is it that Arcsystem moved to 3D for their games and isn't doing sprites anymore if 2D art is cheaper overall?

Pargon · Jan 5, 2020

I don't watch much anime, but from looking at most of the examples posted here, the shows that get it "right" seem to be the ones which animate in halves, but update the camera and similar motion every frame.
Aside from aesthetic preferences, it looks like rendering everything including the camera movement in halves is why people think it looks so bad.
If it's going to be CG, I'd like to see a studio try rendering it out at high frame rates like 60 or even 120 FPS rather than 12 or 15. Still keyframe at 12/15, but interpolate everything to 120.

I seem to recall people saying that Demon Slayer (Kimetsu no Yaiba) was a new height for CG anime shows on TV.
I didn't watch it (no interest in shounen anime) but I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that.

residentgrigo said:
CG animation is also done "by hand". Computers don´t just shit these out.

You can animate keyframes and interpolate between them in CG. It's also far easier to re-purpose existing work, such as complex 3D models, instead of having to redraw it.

residentgrigo · Jan 5, 2020

But that´s not how anyone who knows what he or she is doing animates CG Pargon. It is how you get Berserk 2016/17 though and even some of that shit was "fixed" (but not really) for the Blu Rays which no one bought, thank Zodd. Behold:

And good luck with setting "key frames" and having your PC do the rest in scenes like this:

The CG animators are further as badly treated and as overworked as the 2D ones in Japan. The usual take that 3D = cheaper than 2D is another myth.

Long story short. Look up a making-of for Into the Spider-verse on how and why animation fps can be variated (most of the film is used 12 fps aka 2s), how to set good key frames and so on. That film is the Akira of CG animation despite running at half the frame-rate. Not that 24 fps anime even existed outside of that film.

Edit: One more:

Dat show was top to bottom toxic.

Pargon · Jan 5, 2020

residentgrigo said:
But that´s not how anyone who knows what he or she is doing animates CG @Pargon. It is how you get Berserk 2016/17 though and even some of that shit was "fixed" (but not really) for the Blu Rays which no one bought, thank Zodd. Behold:

That's just awful production all around, not anything to do with interpolating between keyframes.
Nearly every video game out there interpolates animation - that's how you end up with clips like these Dark Souls GIFs which people use to point out how good they think the animation looks, by rendering out at higher frame rates.

black_knight_great_sword_150_with_blur_by_alo81-d6ervga.gif

The original Turok even included a cheat code making fun of Quake back in the day because it didn't use interpolation on its animations; Quack Mode, with the code being "CLLTHTNMTN" (you CaLL THaT aNiMaTioN).

Rendering out at higher frame rates obviously won't fix bad production, but I think it would help with a lot of the "bad" examples here.
Many of the examples posted earlier look like most of the "animation" is already basic movement that which is only interpolated between very few keyframes - it's just also rendered at a very low frame rate. Rendering at a high frame rate wouldn't fix the basic animation, but would at least look better.
Shows with larger budgets, better production, and more care, are probably going to want to hand-animate everything though - they know how to make lower frame rates look good. I'll still be watching it with interpolation enabled on my TV (not the same thing as animation interpolation) because the frame rates are often too low to be watchable for me.

Tora · Jan 5, 2020

What about the Palutena reveal for Smash 4?

Link and Pit looked great

beat · Jan 5, 2020

collige said:
I think the problem with the clip in the OP is that the animation is super stilted. There's no sense of key frames or motion, they're just spinning the character models around

As an Old, I actually really like (good) animation on 2s and 3s.

There was a really good GDC talk about how Guilty Gear moved to 3D while maintaining its traditional look. It ends up taking a lot more effort than letting the computer decide (a lot of) the in-betweens and lighting. But it's a fighting game and that has different animation priorities than making even a movie, much less a series.

Zapperino · Jan 5, 2020

Rex Dart: Eskimo Spy said:
If they're designing, modeling, rigging, texturing, lighting, rendering and compositing in 3D to 'save money' over 2D drawings, they're doing it wrong.

I know that they recycle keyframes in 2d animes, and I'm pretty much convinced they do the same for the 3d ones. Im not sure which is actually cheaper but, seeing how many minor adaptations are getting this treatment, it must not be bad. Gotta need some data on this.

Solid SOAP · Jan 5, 2020

jwk94 said:
Oh shit what lupin movie is this?

Lupin The First. It just came out last month in Japan, I'm really holding out for an English release though. I think it's only had a theatrical release so far.

RPTGB · Jan 5, 2020

ScoobsJoestar said:
I think Beastars looks fantastic but I can't remember if it slows down the framerate too or not.

It also probably benefits from not having human characters.

I think it mixes it up a bit, most of it looks like it was done on twos but some of the "high impact" cuts are definitely on ones.

Zen · Jan 5, 2020

The character animations in Knights of Sidonia are stiff as hell, but it's the combat scenes and everything related to the mechs that shine.

RPTGB · Jan 5, 2020

furikuri said:
The conclusion is that anime are by-and-large still hand drawn (in the videos I posted, you can clearly see the animators drawing by hand). As for the reason why newer anime look "different", look at the very first link I posted:

The reason why newer anime look "different" is because of digital coloring and composition; the characteristic "gritty" look of older anime is a result of the ink-and-paint process, in which each drawing is transferred from paper to a cel, painted (from the back of the sheet), photographed, and filmed.

It's fine to prefer the look of older anime—I'm just trying to point out that anime is still drawn as it used to be.

Interestingly enough, a faux-cel aesthetic is achievable using digital tools, as seen in the first episode of Shinya Tensai Bakabon. It's not exactly the same, but it's fun to imagine the possibilities.

Or MegloBox which went out of its way to try and emulate the 80's/90's VHS look...and got chastised for looking blurry by the hi-def purists!
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.....

808s & Villainy · Jan 5, 2020

Zen said:
The character animations in Knights of Sidonia are stiff as hell, but it's the combat scenes and everything related to the mechs that shine.

Well mechs and mechanical things are stuff by nature, have fairly simple to recreate surfaces, and are overall much easier to animate compared to humans

RPTGB said:
Or MegloBox which went out of its way to try and emulate the 80's/90's VHS look...and got chastised for looking blurry by the hi-def purists!
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.....

HD releases of old anime don't look blurry

residentgrigo · Jan 5, 2020

Another amazing recent use of CG in a TV (it´s complicated) production by IG:

Here is what the show and latest adaptation of a classic book series is about:

The 80s/90s OVA adaptation is better overall but not in regards to how it does the incomprehensibly large "sea of stars" battles.

The full CG Ultraman 2019 is quite well made too, pacing issues aside:

The GitS SAC and the Appleseed guys co-directed it. Their Ghost In The Shell: SAC_2045 will also be in CG.

And finally CG blended gem by the Bebop director:

The related anime should come in 2020 but was originally scheduled for 2019.

Sumio Mondo · Jan 5, 2020

Probably because a lot of the 2D animators are retired or leaving the industry, so they're more scarce and 3D animation is taking over. Same as what happened in Hollywood, 2D is being phased out. It's not really the cost so much as a time saving measure to animate in 3D. 2D animation takes such a long time.

Dark Ninja · Jan 5, 2020

Uhh probably the worst trend to save time and money. Whenever something is announced that is anime related I always check if its gonna be 3D before getting excited or if they don't say if its 2D or 3D I assume its gonna be 3D now. Its fucking awful 90% of the time and when its bad it's BAD. Give me a 2D panning still shot anyday.

Rex Dart: Eskimo Spy · Jan 5, 2020

Nooblet said:
Erm no they aren't.

You only have to do it once after which it's a matter of adjusting them to fit the scene rather than redoing and modifications if decided upon later on are easy to do. The models are also infinitely reusable and since it's CG they don't have to work on how each character is lit and shadowed on a fine level on each frame, but instead can just place lights according to where the camera is pointing and everything will be lit and shadowed on it's own. With 2D art you have to draw everytime, everything needs to be lit and shadowed by hand for each frame and modifying later on requires redoing it again.

If you disagree then ask yourself, why is it that Arcsystem moved to 3D for their games and isn't doing sprites anymore if 2D art is cheaper overall?

Thanks for the introduction. We're talking about anime and suddenly you're talking about game assets. You don't know what you're talking about.

3D assets makes sense to save money on realtime projects because of the manner of reuse.
3D assets do not make sense to save money on handdrawn/episodic style production, especially in the days of digital 2D. It will almost always cost more.

Source: Am CG animation director for the last 10 years.

Cth · Jan 5, 2020

What's the general consensus on Rebuild of Evangelion? Surprised it hasn't been talked about given the high profile of the series.

3D anime is so ugly and I don't get why it's a thing

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