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34BigThings Denies Digital Foundry’s Redout XB1X Analysis (Update: Digital Foundry Apology)
- Thread starter lupianwolf
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Yeah, they've been super scummy about it. I'm not really sure why people are feeling so bad for them when they sue, make a big post on twitter about NOT LETTING LIES GO and then lying right before that sentence with claiming (yet again) that it's 4k/60 when it never under any circumstance hits 4k (they admit it themselves) and there's areas that struggle to stay above 40fps let alone 60. It's a really bad look and just reminds me of digital homicide with Jim Sterling.
I'm on their side because they made the second-greatest arcade anti-gravity racing game of all time, sue me for being a fanboy and pissed that this blunder has turned people off from the game.
Also, they made redout during a time when wipeout was a dead franchise. Sony brought it back with Omega but the franchise was officially done. It might still be done. If people love the genre, they should be buying redout.
No I think they're re-analyzing it today. The video will come after they're done.
I don't think DF really damaged 34BigThings image here. I mean, DF isn't a product selling site or does the marketing for them. It analyzes stuff and mistakes happen. It's not DFs fault that emotional and to a product overly attached people are loosing their shit. A normal and doubting user would have asked nicely if the results from DF are really true. I can understand the developer to feel like shit after getting such messages. But it's always better to take a step back first before doing anything in a rush. Mostly, nothing good comes out of this.
Although I'm not a legal expert I also think legal actions wouldn't hold shit against DF even if they didn't update the article. You simply can't prove a (intentional) damaging action against 34BigThings by some mean tweets. Numbers of people who wouldn't buy the game of this (or are even aware of this 'issue') is probably neglectable.
Although I'm not a legal expert I also think legal actions wouldn't hold shit against DF even if they didn't update the article. You simply can't prove a (intentional) damaging action against 34BigThings by some mean tweets. Numbers of people who wouldn't buy the game of this (or are even aware of this 'issue') is probably neglectable.
Mate you're seeing 1 + 1 and coming to the answer of Potato.
I clearly explained why I posted the titles. I clearly explained why I objected to them as they are classic clickbait headlines. I clearly explained that the actual results of which console comes out ahead doesn't matter to me, just that the headlines are making out like there is a big reveal/surprise if you read the article when in fact there isn't. It could be a gameboy game being compared to a PC game for all I care, it's irrelevant. You are the only one bringing fanboy and console allegiances into the conversation. I'm discussing the fact that they are pandering to fanboys by using clickbait titles, while you're accusing me of being a fanboy because you cant seem to comprehend why I'm pointing out that the titles are clickbait. You are 100% wrong here. I couldn't care less if the X version is better or worse. What I care about is DF, a site that I've read for years, using clickbait and opinion based headlines and articles instead of just using facts and technical talk.
You obviously have made up an ill-formed opinion of me, and are seemingly intentionally misinterpreting my posts, so I'm blocking you, reporting you the continual fanboy accusations, and moving on.
I didn't reply because quite frankly there's nothing I can say to you that is going to get through. You say I'm just attacking DF, you're going out of your way to defend them against every possible criticism.
I didn't say that DF did something in bad faith, I said they made a mistake and should do everything they can to make up for it. "Everything they can" is IMO more than editing an old article and removing the video that has the incorrect information. IMO they should put out a new article stating that they made a mistake and that they're working with the developer etc. Editing an old article doesn't mean everyone that saw the old article will see the update. You have a much better chance with a new article.
I'm not assuming DF operated in bad faith lol. Never once have I said they did. I'm saying that they need to go 1 step further to try and undo the damage they have done. That's it. I'm not arguing in bad faith and am not dishonest at all. You are doing both with your posts.
I'm not replying to the 50 other times you've said the same thing, calling me dishonest and "bad faith". You're now on my ignore list so you know why I'm not replying.
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Yet you just complained about their technical facts when it didn't fit you're desired outcome. All I've done is pointed to the things you've said not aligning with your stated goals. You are a walking contradiction in this thread.
Let's put a pin in this whole "You're a troll!"/"No, I'm not!" thing. It's dragged on far longer than necessary. Cheers.
Did it turn people off? The dev's reaction to the whole thing turned me off. It has nothing to do with the quality of the game or the port.
There nothing I resent more than people telling us what we should be doing. "Oh, it should be nothing but pure technical facts with no opinion, personality or fun". Get out of here with that. That is not what the site is. I certainly couldn't survive making dry videos like that.
Also, suggesting that the content is intentionally made to stir up the fanboys is stupidly insulting to me and goes completely against my goals for each video. Reality is contrary - I'm always hoping fanboys avoid and do not comment on my videos and I write my scripts very carefully to minimize that. Very frustrating.
Also, suggesting that the content is intentionally made to stir up the fanboys is stupidly insulting to me and goes completely against my goals for each video. Reality is contrary - I'm always hoping fanboys avoid and do not comment on my videos and I write my scripts very carefully to minimize that. Very frustrating.
Precisely.
Be a fanboy all you want, but understand that people are annoyed with the devs, not the game.
Don't be surprised, but what the CEO said was far more damaging than a few fanboys getting mad over the video, especially if you realise that the video could drive people to buy the PS4 Pro version instead.
The CEO's response to this was waaaaay over the top. "pure, straight lie"? "Fake News"?
Mistakes were made, people apologized. Come on dude, show some class.
Mistakes were made, people apologized. Come on dude, show some class.
Lttp but let me see if I got it: 34BT cried LIES bc their game runs most of the time at 1080p and DF only was able to capture those screens.
Have they adressed the awful framerate and the base XBO assets?
I think they first should've made an effort with the patch, would avoid all this situation.
Have they adressed the awful framerate and the base XBO assets?
I think they first should've made an effort with the patch, would avoid all this situation.
I think the criticisms about it not being 4K are valid, they flat out lied about that, but not the ones about it not being locked 60fps just because they said 60fps. 99%+ of "60fps" games aren't locked at 60fps. 60fps is the target framerate, and the maximum framerate cap.
What are your thoughts on the recent trend of "suggestive" headlines of the comparisons? Take the AC:O comparison for example. Putting questions about one "looking much better but does it perform better?", for example, in the heading of a comparison is essentially baiting for clicks IMO.
If it's your target framerate you should probably be hitting it most of the time, not having prolonged stretches where it was struggling to stay above 40fps. You can twist it if you like but it is clearly not 4k and clearly not 60fps even though they tweet a day or two ago in relation to this they decided to further double/triple/whatever down on their lie that it now runs on 4k/60. It would mean a lot more if they didn't purposefully lie in retaliation to Digital Foundry incorrectly stating it was only 1080p.
I don't understand why you think that's baiting. It is designed to intrigue the reader but that's different from clickbait. Actual clickbait is usually meaningless content that doesn't even answer the questions posed or tries to trick the reader. That's not at all what these titles are doing. The answers are always there. It seems more like a magazine headline to me which makes sense since that's Richard's background.
I'm not a big fan of them myself, if I'm honest, but I'm not well versed in what works or doesn't. I still don't think it's clickbait, though, just due to the strength of the content and the INTENT behind it. I don't think it's fair to throw around the clickbait label here as it marginalizes the content within.
They seem fine to me (I know you weren't asking).
PS4 Pro had some worse performing games, as has the XBX. The title(s) have reflected what's been going on in some cases and just merely open questions. Some in this thread have taken them as clickbait and fuelling the wars.
I'm sorry you guys have to go through this after every video. I see nothing wrong with what you guys do, including the title of the most recent video. It is better on the Pro for the fact that it runs better, so I don't see how anyone can see it as click baiting. I don't believe any of you would try to cater to fanboys since it would alienate anyone genuinely interested in the technical facts presented. People need to detach themselves from their platform of choice and just enjoy the content. Jumping to conclusions with irrational thought does no good for anyone here.
This place is mostly fine, honestly. It's more Twitter and YT comments which are pure poison.
Many, many, games struggle to stay close to 60fps that are called 60fps titles, and they haven't received the backlash that this game has. Take Gran Turismo 5 as one example, which very rarely ever hit 60fps. It generally operated around the high 40s to low 50s. God of War 3 is another, it generally sat around 30-45 fps but was a 60fps game. Even COD has sat in the low-mid 50s most of the time in some releases IIRC.
I'm not twisting anything - when devs call a game "30fps" or "60fps" they are talking about the maximum framerate and the target framerate. That's how it has been done for forever, not sure why it's a problem all of a sudden for just this one game. The 4K bit is absolutely a lie and they should be taken to town for that one. 60fps is not a lie and is 100% correct in the way it has been historically used.
I guess we have different definitions of what is clickbait, and that's fine. To me, a title that is trying to draw you in with leading questions or hints of something else is click bait. It is baiting you in to clicking by leaving out some apparently important information or some answer to a question that will surprise you. The articles are a comparison between multiple versions of games, why not have the title just reflect that? Why editorialize it? The answer is to get clicks. You said it's more like a magazine headline, and I see most magazine headlines as clickbait too because that's exactly what they're trying to do.
Anyway thanks for the reply. We don't have to agree on it, just wanted to get your thoughts and explain mine. I bring it up because as your last sentence says, I think some of these headlines have had the unintended effect of marginalizing the content within.
Their Twitter said they'll be re-testing today. I'm sure it takes time to make these videos.
Yeah I bet those comments can get pretty toxic. Just know the work you guys put in is highly appreciated.
I don't get this line of thinking. A title is meant to draw interest and give people a reason to click or view. There's a reason why you'd get docked points in writing classes for not having a title that grabs attention or make the viewer question things. Most click baiting titles would be trolling or be extremely hyperbolic. Neither of these apply to the title of the video taken down.
"Clickbait" as a derogatory term came to be because people needed a way to describe internet content that isn't really content, but merely a sensationalist title and a whole bunch of nothing beyond it.
And now I'm noticing that more and more people seem to misunderstand that. Facebook seems to have made some hate the mere concept of a vehicle hiding information behind a link - which is completely irrational, because vehicles need to do that to survive.
The "clickbait" term should only refer to dishonest content, but nowadays it seems that some use it to describe any content which is trying to draw you in with its title... which is literally all content created by anyone who creates content for a living.
DF does not in any way make clickbait titles if you consider the term's original and actual meaning.
And now I'm noticing that more and more people seem to misunderstand that. Facebook seems to have made some hate the mere concept of a vehicle hiding information behind a link - which is completely irrational, because vehicles need to do that to survive.
The "clickbait" term should only refer to dishonest content, but nowadays it seems that some use it to describe any content which is trying to draw you in with its title... which is literally all content created by anyone who creates content for a living.
DF does not in any way make clickbait titles if you consider the term's original and actual meaning.
What I gathered from watching recent "analyses": They could be much more detailed. It's not enough if you just play the first 10 minutes of a game and call it a day. (This is pretty apparent on Xbox One X videos) If you're just trying to chug out as many videos as possible by lowering the quality of your content, then it's not worth it.
We need more channels doing this kind of work on YouTube.
Edit: This may sound harsher than intended.
We need more channels doing this kind of work on YouTube.
Edit: This may sound harsher than intended.
I never understood the CEO action. I mean if the PS4 pro version is mostly superior
to xbx version, people would get the PS4 version instead of Xbox one x. PS4 got a much wider I stall base so I would think there would not be an issue. I picked up a PS4 copy off Target clearance myself
to xbx version, people would get the PS4 version instead of Xbox one x. PS4 got a much wider I stall base so I would think there would not be an issue. I picked up a PS4 copy off Target clearance myself
Quite frankly, when it comes to content and "what you should do" etc, I dgaf -- I'll keep watching as long as you keep doing DFRetro because that's what entertains me and at the end of the day, that's what this medium is for and it's what I enjoying doing. If you like making DFRetro then great, I hope you keep doing them, but if not, I understand and hope you do something you enjoy. Life is too short as is -- gotta maximize your enjoyment. Nobody will ever be on their death bed saying "I wish I wouldn't have enjoyed life as much as I did, I should have spent more time being miserable."
idk i side with the developer on this. I love DF but they made a mistake, a damaging one. Just updating their article and a "my bad" tweet is not is not enough. I would've expected a demonitized apology video on YouTube by now.
I'm a casual fan of DF and didn't even know about redout till i saw the video. I was genuinely curious about the game when i saw it at first. i like wipeout style games, but after fully watching the video i was turned off, even thought of never supporting the developer ever.
now i don't frequent DFs twitter, and if i wasn't on era i would never know that it was a mistake and would continue to subscribe to the idea that the devs are terrible at what they do. I would've expected a video uploaded to their channel acknowledging their mistake by now to try and erase the damage they caused. Most ppl don't read their articles or follow them on twitter.
I'm a casual fan of DF and didn't even know about redout till i saw the video. I was genuinely curious about the game when i saw it at first. i like wipeout style games, but after fully watching the video i was turned off, even thought of never supporting the developer ever.
now i don't frequent DFs twitter, and if i wasn't on era i would never know that it was a mistake and would continue to subscribe to the idea that the devs are terrible at what they do. I would've expected a video uploaded to their channel acknowledging their mistake by now to try and erase the damage they caused. Most ppl don't read their articles or follow them on twitter.
Not wanting to sound petty, but an event like this was just begging to happen. The recent rise of tech analysis sites is starting to incite a mindset of absolute toxicity. Probably today would be a good day to take a step back and re-evaluate the weight we assign to technical prowess in games.
Fps drops genuinely affect gameplay, resolution being mostle HD instead of UHD is idiotic imho.
And I have 2 4k screens and a ps4 pro (and redout, I might add, in both pc AND ps4)
Fps drops genuinely affect gameplay, resolution being mostle HD instead of UHD is idiotic imho.
And I have 2 4k screens and a ps4 pro (and redout, I might add, in both pc AND ps4)
You side with a developer who uses threatening language and trumpisms? The only damaging thing really was a couple of Twitter trolls hating on them. The game has been out for a while and this is just a patch and a poor patch at that. The developers should be called out for stating that their game is 4k/60 and it isn't, the drops down to 1080p must have been frequent enough to confuse DF in the first place. If it never went down to 1080p then I would agree more that DF are to blame but it does and the rest of their analysis was 100% correct.
DF have taken the video down and will be putting a new video up once they have completed reanalysis on RedOut. I'm sure this is taking a while because they want to be as thorough as possible.
Their bizarrely over the top reaction and aggressive and confrontational attitude has certainly put me off purchasing the game.
Completely get what you're saying.
Side note, I don't even think the title was inaccurate anyway, irrespective of the dynamic resolution discrepancy, at least based on your specific footage and testing.
How dare you give your opinion on your videos made by you and posted on your channel! You should be 100% neutral on everything because... because... I say so!
I agree that this whole mess should not let people doubt about the quality of the game itself. As far as i can see, Redout is an excellent little title and obviously looks like ''quality'' to me. But giving them a pass for their shitty PR statement is just equally damning. All they have done so far is retweeting DF's apology and saying ''They didn't tell the truth''. There is nothing so far that suggests them retracting their original statement and at this point that's just damning aswell.
Which is quite ironic since i did criticize DF and i have agreed on numerous occassions that arguments against DF can be made when it comes to titles, aswell as agreeing with NX Gamer's post.
Admittely, because my repetitive clearly got in the way, i can understand that this was overlooked. But don't say that nothing will ever get through or that i defend DF from every critique ever because that is just patently false.
Just because you didnt say it, does not mean that you aren't doing it. What you do is bring a very onesided argument to the table with absolutely disregard for another side. And when you get called out on it by not only me but others aswell, your retort is ''Ill block you''? That does not promote a discussion either way, and it just seems like a childish move to me at that point.
I dont put people on ignore lists because i actively want to challenge myself with opinions wholly different than mines. In that regard, its absolutely not beneficial when you block anyone that shares a different opinion then yours and you aren't willing to stand up for your opinion, because all you will be left with in that regard is people who either won't address you, or who will agree with you, with zero critical thought zapping through. This is why ignoring people because you disagree with them is profoundly silly to me and it just creates a bubble of confirmation in my opinion.
That is sadly the luck of the draw. It's up to Twitter and Google to maintain an equal playing field but certainly in the case of YT, their focus is more on ''How can we mess with Youtubers and demonetization'' rather than ''Lets fix the comments.'' Just don't let that get into you John, the only pals you ever need are on ERA. ;)
Echoing what i've said here previously John. I would absolutely dislike DF evolving into a factual automatron with generic names like ''Digital Foundry Bot, at your service''. Part of why DF ''works'' is because the people in it have charisma. Heck, some voices are forever etched in my brain as ''part of DF'' at this point.
And the same goes for the bottom part. There is a reason why i am so vocal on people assuming that Digital Foundry is out there to intentionally clickbait or to purposefully put a developer in a bad light. Every single step of the way in the past has suggested otherwise, and so far i haven't seen anyone come up with a sensible and meaningful retort as to why Digital Foundry now suddenly would do otherwise, or why they would be doing this in the first place.
So basically you don't know what clickbait is. Real clickbait is malicious in nature and overly hyperbolic. What DF does isnt malicious in intent, and its not hyperbolic either. It is suggestive, yes, and a bridge can be built regarding whether DF needs certain sensationalistic titles, but i think it goes way too far to think DF is deliberately doing clickbait. They don't.
I also find it peculiar how you are dropping me and others on a ignore list for having a different opinion, but when addressing John himself, its ''thanks for the reply, we dont have to agree, just wanted to get your thoughts''. Not really consistent if you ask me. But alas, you have that option, so for you to use it, all power to you.
I will never understand why DF has to make so many sidesteps yet 34BigThings is off the hook.
You know, at this point, i would rather suggest DF to make that damn retracting article and be done with it, even when that's playing into an unfair narrative since the problem isnt DF at this stage.
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I completely side with Digital Foundry on this.
The gameplay performance (read that as: framerate) and graphical experience of Redout on Xbox One X with patch is nowhere near what 34BigThings promised.
Their attitude is massively unprofessional and they are demanding respect where they have yet to earn it.
The gameplay performance (read that as: framerate) and graphical experience of Redout on Xbox One X with patch is nowhere near what 34BigThings promised.
Their attitude is massively unprofessional and they are demanding respect where they have yet to earn it.
Dude, you made me get Quake I and II and i didn't even like Quake in my teen years.
Your videos are good and your labor (Not even talking about dfr here) is encomiable. Twitter and yt comments are pure cesspools of manchildness.
If anything has turned people off the game its their dumb handling of this entire situation aw well as the poor XB1X port of their game that disappointed its console owners.
Your definition matches mine. No matter how much I dig I cannot get to the bottom of that one trick a mum from my city has found that pays thousands a month without leaving the house!!
A title that poses a question and then a video that answers it is more than acceptable to me. It's like a problem statement in a design doc.
It's posts like this, plus the response of the dev/CEO, that turns me off from playing the "second-greatest anti-gravity racing game of all time" cause I don't give a crap about something not being full 4K.
Very frustraiting indeed. You see, many 'DF topics' around here people post like 'WHY WE NEED A TECH SITE OR A TOPIC FOR COMPARISON? ITS JUST ABOUT HAVING FUN'... I mean why wasting time posting in a place you don't like or make a troll about something you don't care?
I love tech sites, love tech comparisons because I like that. If people don't like why they post? Just don't post. Do not contribute.
And Dark1x maybe I can not speak for every fan here, but we are very sorry for the last few days about accusations from all corners. I really appreciate your work and I hope none of that people bashing your devotion disrupt your future projects.
And apart from that: While Redout is a decent game, whoever ist claiming claiming it to be the second-best, clearly can't have played that many anti-grav racers. Just from 2017, WipeOut Omega and FAST RMX ir simply significantly better.
And the wonky framerate on Xbox is much more of a blunder that would turn off people than the 4K fuss.
This is totally aside from the topic, but I have dozens of hours into Fast RMX, and I find this an easy point to argue. Even if you look at the spectrum of professional reviews, there's not any sort of gulf to match your characterization.
Both Redout and Fast Racing / Fast RMX have the same score on Metacritic.
I definitely prefer Redout and it's not even close.
Exactly (and I also agree about having enjoyed Redout more).
I'd argue getting a 81 based on five times the number of reviews is a more significant achievement.
Aside from that, I'm basing my characterization on my opinion, just as you do on yours apparently. Either way it's simply still nowhere near the second-best antigrav racer ever, which was the original claim.
As for the topic at hand: I'm not prone to letting the behaviour of a dev cloud my enjoyment of their game, at least if it's only stuff like being total jerks as is the case here. But I definitely think they have gone about this thing in the completely wrong way, especially with the less-than-stellar technical performance of the Xbox version with and without patch in general. And I'm not quite buying that the alleged shitstorm on Twitter really was all that big, but it's of course hard to prove from the outside.
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FAST RMX is definitely not close to Redout IMO. RO has better music, track design (best track design in the genre, imo), controls, and art-style (ALL THE SCREEN-SPACE REFLECTIONS). Unfortunately, RO's performance will probably suck compared to it on Switch.
But I've played most of the recent anti-gravity racers and I would definitely rank them F-Zero GX > Redout > Wipeout > Fast RMX
Just look at how inventively insane this track design is! (I'm in this video too!)
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