I for one am quite personally disgusted that after everything DF has then to correct their incorrect claims, 2/3 of this very page is still spent on criticizing DF for what they did, and its not even in relation to the Redout video. And hardly anywhere on this page i read criticisms to the address of 34BadThings, who, as of this moment,
still have done jack to apologize for their initial PR blunder.
In advance i am going to have a slightly more harsh tone towards one user because essentially ignored every argument i brought forward, here -
https://www.resetera.com/threads/34bigthings-denies-digital-foundry's-redout-xb1x-analysis-update-digital-foundry-apology.14750/page-8#post-2955399.
Also again apologies for the (smaller) quote tower. Just some opinions in here.. :/
Gotta work on my state of mind, basically.
If this is in any way related to the criticisms directed towards DF in general in this thread, please allow me to apologize for this. Whilst, as i made mention in the link above, there is a valid discussion to be found when it comes to DF's content in general (And for which NX Gamer has inserted an interesting argument), the majority seems very much pointing fingers in your direction, even after having apologized and what not, and where 34BadThings isn't even criticized nearly as fierce despite having done nothing so far in regards to apologies.
This sucks to hear John, and i wish more people would pick up on this post and realize that some of the more severe fingerblaming to DF is unwarranted.
From my perspective this is a pretty good summary of what happened.
DF are acting like adults, the dev? Not so much.
But oddly enough you hear few, if any critical voice about the dev on this page (Not the previous pages). People are more interested in discussing DF's use of ''clickbait'' (which really, that is just hyperbolic to argue) and how ''wrong'' they are in their already rectified mistake rather than calling out the clear elephant in the room that is 34BadThings's crappy PR statement.
Yes they are when they make subjective opinions like here. There are places where only hard facts are presented like VG Tech channel but DF are professional journalists that regularly (more and more often) comment (their opinion) on those technical subjects. Obviously they know those statements are going to be understood the way they were interpreted here, particularly in our current social networks world.
Yeah actually they aren't. If they were, then the same metric should apply to anyone, at which point you could rather direct your critique towards Youtube and Twitter themselves for allowing these ''opinions'' to exist.
The only outlet i can see them being responsible for is the DF page at Eurogamer itself. Everything else? Not their problem.
First problem I think was their first title: "What's Up With The Xbox One X Version?" insinuating the XBX version is bugged similar to Titanfall 2 predicament "Something's not right with Titanfall 2 on Xbox One X"
The title was changed and is now more neutral and objective: "Redout on Xbox One X falls short of the PS4 Pro experience" which is objectively true.
The first title isnt clickbait.
I said this a long time ago. The thing DF says or writes about needs to be more neutral. Although they "made it right", they still as journalists have a duty to report unbiased news. They keep flavoring their videos and articles with undertones of favoritism. Just look at the title: "what's up with the Xbox Version? Better on Pro!". That shit right there is bound to draw out fanboys and it's pretty sensational too.
How is this favoritism when its by spec completely obvious that the X is a better machine? This isnt even sensationalism, this is just being surprised. Suggestive, yes, but hardly clickbait.
So truthfully I'm glad this happened. It'll keep DF on their P's and Q's and force them to be more thorough. 2. It'll give more credibility to other outlets putting in that work because nothing is guaranteed. Better shape up.
Yes, we should totally be happy that as long as you are a dev, its perfectly fine to come up with half-threats to courts, whilst making false claims themselves and to this very moment still have done nothing that looks like an apology to DF's address when the latter has, you know, acted like a professional through this entire ordeal.
But yes, lets pile on DF a little bit more despite all this because they surely do deserve some whipping, is it not? Like, you really are picking the wrong body to criticize, especially when, in the scope of this thread, they did everything right.
I think those will be very beneficial John. Not only makes this things more transparent, it also ensures that everyone can take a stab a pixelcounting themselves. I very much appreciate that you are still willing to do this, even when this page is mostly dominated on focussing on DF's wrongdoings.
What If DF says almost the same things in their new Analysis? I mean It is dynamic Resolution but it sticks mostly to 1080p with base Xbox assets. Where will this Case go,any guess?
But i thought you said that you would believe DF no matter what and they were right? Now that they aren't and owned up for it, what's your take on it? Seems kinda unfair to ignore your own postings about this and act blissfully as if nothing happened.
Has this thread really descended into making remarks on the punctuation that Digital Foundry use for their titles...?
What this thread at this point should be about:
- Criticizing 34BadThings for their own PR blunders aswell as the false claims, aswell as them not apologizing to DF yet. Especially when DF did do a lot to to correct their statement.
What the thread is about:
- Continiously stating that ''DF is wrong, DF does clickbait, they were wrong, they should know better, they should do more than what they just did, i understand the dev for his response, DF is wrong, DF does clickbait, DF should leave it to VG Tech, Leadbetter should live to his namesake, DF is wrong, DF does clickbait, they should know better...'' ad infinitum.
You already have John in here stating he hates threads like these and (possibly?) is seeking help because of this witchhunt like narrative to shit on DF. There are aspects of DF that are rightfully criticized, such as by myself and by NX Gamer, but the majority of this page is all about how wrong DF is. Focussing on one side of the coin that has admitted its a coin, and ignoring the other side of the coin that continues to believe its a 2 dollar bill. Its appalling, absolutely appalling.
In the future I would recommend DF take a more scientific approach and method. Don't go into an analysis with biases and then be "disappointed" when those preconceptions don't pan out. Just go in there, analyze, and report the findings.
So... essentially what they have been doing for the past 10 years, but god forbid they show their human side? Why do people want DF to be rotating automatrons without any soul? The reason we love John and all the others at DF is because,
within the scope of a video, they provide their own personal remarks. Commentary like this is essentially calling that we should just forfeit the personality part of DF, and have them be reduced to people who just report purely on points.
In which case, DF Retro obviously has no place in there since that's all based around personal decision and opinion. Is that what we really want to see Digital Foundry do? You know, at this point i am not surprised John hates these threads - Some commentary essentially calls to remove the very thing that made DF popular in the first place. As if people dont want a John Linneman or a David Bierton, but just a
''Digital Foundry Bot #01, reporting on Wolfenstein for Switch''.
This is why I'm scratching my head at all the "but but but 34bigthings said lies and misleading statements too!" posts. So what? Them damaging their own game/reputation is on them. Digital Foundry however, damaging their games perception and the developers reputation based on an incorrect "fact" is the problem.
Unlike you, i am going to assume good faith and assume that you likely have your settings for notifications on quotes disabled, and assume that you havent read my (admittely) big quote tower on you.
You can find the post link in the top of this one.
If you do have them turned on however, then i find it very disrespectful to ignore the arguments presented there, only for you to continue stabbing the same party again and again.
In most of your posts the last 2 pages, you consistently dish out at Digital Foundry, despite everything they have done to correct their initial statements, but you arent being that fierce towards 34BadThings. If anything, you are (hardly) talking about that at all. Still you are talking as if DF is the big issue here, and trust me, they aren't. This onesided criticizing at DF at this point is just kicking someone when they are already down.
People believe everything they say, as evidenced by this very thread where people were believing them over the developers themselves, and that alone shows the damage that DF did to these developers.
Please show me exactly which users 100% went for DF's ''gospel''. There is exactly one user who did that, so this whole bit sounds incredibly hyperbolic and only serves to further a, what i believe at this point just toxic narrative against DF. Especially when you are essentially just repeating the same argument from the last page. Again read my post link in the top of this one, it will also explain why i feel you are arguing in bad faith.
Digital Foundry getting something wrong is a completely separate issue to the developers getting something about their own game wrong, and anyone trying to blame the developer for this or say "they're just as bad" is completely missing the point.
But unlike Z, Y (Digital Foundry) fessed up their mistakes. Yet you are still consistently putting blame at them even after this fact. Why are you so staunchly prepared to criticize Digital Foundry, both before, during and after the apologetic statements, but there is hardly any similar response from you when it comes to 34BadThings and their shitty ''PR'' statement?
Digital Foundry messed up and it 100% has caused undeserved problems for the developer. The blame for any lost sales, and there would be some, from the "1080p" thing and the resulting backlash against the developers because of their statements lay purely at DFs feet, because had they not published incorrect information there would have been no angry response from the CEO.
And all could have been said and done if 34BadThings just made a simple PM stating
''Thank you for your analysis, however, we have indications from others and ourselves that they aren't entirely correct. Could you please verify your claims and re-test your scenario's? We will provide our results and the results from the other party, VG Tech, so you can make a comparison. It seems that likely a mistake has been made, but we want to make sure if that is the case or that we are wrong ourselves. With all due regards, 34BadThings.'' but it seems that is completely lost on you. In your mindset, you see DF do something in bad faith (Misinformation), and as a result, you consider the completely overblown response by 34BadThings to be justified because of it.
That literally is your whole argument in a nutshell. Because you assume DF to operate on bad faith. And that is exactly why i say you argue in bad faith yourself and are dishonest.
If I say something incorrect about person x and person x gets angry at me, people shouldn't be getting mad at person x for their reaction. They should be getting mad at me for spreading incorrect information about said person. Could they have handled it better? Absolutely. Does how they handled it change anything? Not at all.
They should not get mad in the first place, but surprised. And yes, the way 34BadThings handled things does change anything. If they made a response out of surprise, either in private or in public to DF, then you wouldn't have this escalation. The escalation only occurred when 34BadThings in an act of being oblivious, thought it was a good thing to make half-threats with lawsuits to DF,
publically.
They are literally standing up for their company that could potentially be ruined by this.
If that is your take on 34BadThings just being 34BadFaiths towards a party that in their history has always been very
open on correcting any mistakes they will make, then obviously 34BadThings does not know how to deal with public relations clearly. Well, that essentially is what's going on here. Just as how you are assuming bad faith on DF's initial reporting, so did 34BadThings.
And ofcourse, despite that 34BadThings still has not changed their stance so far means that at this point they are still
damaging Digital Foundry themselves. I've said it before, but you could also argue that DF is now in a position to file a lawsuit against 34BadThings for their half-empty threats to lawsuits, calling them ''liars'' and what not. The difference is that DF is a professional body and 34BadThings have shown to be anything but when it comes to public relations.*
*That doesn't say anything against the quality of the game Redout, mind you.
Preach. The problem is the people that defend the errors are fans of the site/channel. Which in turn is a bias. They can't even acknowledge the sensationalism of The Witcher 3 video a member posted. They just skip right over and defend/condone their favorite site; which is sad.
In my post link at the top ive criticized DF, and ive also had a talk with John on the subject of titles (Which isn't really relevant for the whole 34BadThings escalation in the first place but hey, we found a pitchfork to stab Digital Foundry with so might as well make use of it, right?)
I can return the favor aswell and say that there are users in this thread that can't even acknowledge the fact that 34BadThings has done jack so far to retract their own statements, or how they can't acknowledge the fact that 34BadThings has been promoting false claims themselves. Instead, even
after the apology, the tweet, the redacted update in the article and the removal of the video, people still find it needed to stab on DF, even crossing into topics that have bugger all to do with this case (Clickbait, which it isnt).
That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand. DF got people upset with the developers because of the perceived 1080p resolution as well as the framerate and assets. The framerate and assets that DF pointed out are correct, no worries there. The resolution however was incorrect. That's where the problem is. That's the only place the problem is - DF published an article stating it is 1080p and they were wrong. That has absolutely caused damage in itself.
I really am amazed by how often you are reinstating this whole ''DF is wrong, DF is wrong, DF is wrong''. I am not saying this lightly, but this does not read like you are criticizing DF in good faith, but that you are demonizing on them. I mean, that can only be the reason why you still continue to harp on them after their apology and without you considering the situation of 34BadThings in the limelight.
DF have absolutely been making more .... suggestive .... headlines recently. IIRC dark1x even said on here that they've been trying some things with titles to see what works, correct me if I'm wrong? Let's have a look at a few of their last comparison titles.
And he also said that wasn't ''clickbait'' and i agree. Same with the titles in here below. Some are more sensational then pure clickbait. If you dont want personal remarks at DF, then you might as well start a petition to get DF Retro out of here. Heck, just remove any personal remark from DF, they need to stick to ''facts'', right?
I wish you spend this much time criticizing 34BadThings as you are now criticizing Digital Foundry. Last time i checked, they didnt threw a public statement out there suggesting a lawsuit.
I can't stand clickbait. It's a shame DF does it.
Its good to know that the definitions between actual clickbait and what DF are doing are getting more blurry by the minute. Its also good to know that this is somehow worth criticizing, when
it isnt in the scope of this thread.
Have a talk with John over this in PM like did. And oh, don't assume bad faith on DF when there isnt reason to do so...
It's got nothing to do with the topic at hand because you've got a specific angle you're playing up here.
It's not very hard to cut through your words and see what you're really upset about. Digital Foundry isn't praising these XB1X games to the degree you feel they should be. It would be a lot easier to just say that than to go round and round in this dance about how concerned you are with misinformation being spread, but you only seem to care when it's Digital Foundry who's doing it. You don't seem the least bit concerned about this developer misleading customers with grandiose claims about the great things they were going to do with their game on the X. So it's clear that for you this is about Digital Foundry being taken down a peg, and nothing else. You saw your opportunity with their error in this case and it's time to take your swings.
THIS. Well, aside the ''DF does not praise the X, so thats why you are upset'' angle because i dont agree with that, but the rest, yeah..
I have issues with people presenting false information as if it was fact. If this was about a PS4 exclusive you would be getting the exact same response from me. The xbox is a piece of machinery that plays games to me, I don't personally care for it at all.
I have issues with people consistently repeat the same argument (And yes, i am just as much responsible for it with this very reply) to promote some kind of toxic narrative against a party that took their responsibilty for their actions, whilst ignoring the party that hasn't taken any responsibility as of late.
You claim not to push a console war narrative but your whole style of postings is consistently that and harping on DF whilst ignoring the elephant in the room.
I think the developers misleading people is terrible as well, but by making false claims against their own product they aren't hurting someone elses reputation, just their own.
Heh, its almost like John's comments on hating these kinds of threads and thus feeling crappy about it serve no meaning to you. You aren't aware that as long as 34BadThings doesn't unfuck their situation, it hurts Digital Foundry's reputation?
You made a hell of a point here! This is definitely the tone I take away from the comparisons. I just don't understand why people have such disdain for MS in the gaming space.
Because you know, people that dont give a shit about 4chan console wars dont care about this in the first place? With both of the consoles being pretty much equal to eachother, you get essentially the same
experience on either. There is no disdain for Xbox One X here, just as there was no disdain for the PS3. You simply believe this kind of mindset because you give people defending a console way too much importance. Consoles are entertainment machines, not reasons to act like you are on higher ground.
Same goes for iOS vs Android. I have zero issues with people buying the latest equipment, all power to them. It becomes an issues when you feel the need to act superior over one another just because you can afford device X. Its childish behavior and it should not belong here.
Xbox has always been dope, and has always pushed console tech to new heights. As a business owner it seems silly seeing comments saying the dev should have handled the situation better. Fuck that!
Yes, because assuming good faith on another party is apparently so incredibly difficult to realize, that it is easier to go out public and threaten them with a lawsuit. Lets be hostile to another party that is known to be open to corrections since the moment they started. Fuck that, its business, right?
If anything, its BS statements like 34BadThings that fuel a divide between developers and the people reporting on them. In the end they are both part of the same game that is the gaming industry, so why shouldn't it be better to treat eachother with you know, a bit of good faith?
They published incorrect findings, which resulted in a ton of backlash against the developer.
Which came only
after the developer threw in their quality crappy PR statement and making accusations, all out in the public.
Also, I've seen quite a few people state they wouldn't buy the game because the developer got angry with DF's mistaken analysis. A lawyer would definitely try to pursue legal action...or at least mine would. There's definitely damages resulting from DF's mistake. It makes sense to try and re-coupe those losses, especially when you have several posts in this thread reflecting the damage done to the dev's sales/reputation.
And yet another one seemingly ignoring that 34BadThings's statement, as well as their false claims towards their own audience, are still online and not taken accounted for. If anything DF can counter sue them at this point for slander after the fact.
But they dont, because they apologized, removed the video, updated the article, send out a tweet. It amazes me how people are in on DF being a ''big meanie'' when they are literally the only party in this dispute that has acted professionally and accordingly.
This is again another example of something I have talked about in many videos, posts and tweets, even in my Patreon video. When you are doing an analysis of something first hand without any dev or creator contact or info you will ALWAYS run the risk of mistakes or misapplied features/techniques. This is NOT the first time DF has made a mistake, or VG tech or myself, along with anyone else that is trying to do this, this is an absolute example of an occupational hazard..period.
But the support and faith that DF have built up put them in a position of responsibility, which I have said to them direct and they know well. Many times I will have a pixel count or frame-rate issues or other such info way before a game comes out, but we all know the venom and hunger a vocal portion of the market has, so I do not talk about it until I have final released code and can be sure. Platform wars are real and have become horrible (like many other things) due to the social outlets that are now open to so many with no accountability applied, this is not a console only thing by the way.
So with this in mind, I always mention resolution and frame-rates with care and add in the caveat of dynamic scaling, as this is now an almost locked in feature of many modern titles. Getting a ceiling and floor limit is relatively simple to do but balancing the average level is harder, hence why I play with these 2 bounds and then add the average between them. Article titles like this and other sites are designed to bring in the views, nothing new here, you can do this with fact and not mislead (I am not stating that is what happened here) but DF DO need to be more mindful of HOW the info and WHEN the info is shared, this reaction is from a small, Italian games company, they are passionate people and this misinformation will have a detrimental affect on their sales and future, over-reaction aside (I doubt a legal case will be brought here) but this is why the info means more than just a chat or joke on social media, it can make or break a game as titles are ignored simply because they are Sub-HD, or have a few dips here and there. Everything has to be presented with clarity and within context, the crazed sharks will always be circling for blood, but you can manage that by not chasing the first to break a story that could have a very negative affect on peoples lively-hoods. I always have and will share the facts and the stats, but be as confident as you can in then and be mindful of the consequences should they be right OR wrong.
This is how I view my channel and site info, I always share the facts and let's be clear, Devs or PR teams can mislead, exaggerate and even lie so having channels like mine or the others is a key factor, I am only interested in the tech, skills and hardware but I still have to be aware of just how that info is taken, absorbed and disseminated. DF did the right thing and have corrected/removed the video, I hope no-one centers on one side of this argument but simply see's this as a highlight as to how OTT these results are taken sometimes, sorry for the long post.
THIS. I am so happy this argument is presented here. This is what you call a fair a critical argument, done in good faith, acknowledging the pluses and minuses of DF and not being onesided towards demonizing a single point.
Paging
Dark1x just so he can be aware of this. This is the kind of argument that can be useful for DF in the upcoming future. Given how John has already presented the option to release the screenshots which they do their pixel counting upon, id say they are on the right track.
