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Liabe Brave

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Oct 27, 2017
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Especially in a case like this where the resolution adjustments work differently than any other game (ie - apparently tied to specific sections of the track rather than adjusting by load).
It's rare, but it's not different than any other game. You pointed out yourself in this thread that Sonic Forces does this on One X. And Mr. Morgan detected the same scene-specific rather than load-specific resolution changes previously in Batman: Return to Arkham.

I would understand this line of thinking if DF was wrong a lot and misleading about things often but this is the first major miss they have had that I can think of.
No, Digital Foundry make mistakes all the time. Many of these are less obvious than resolution--missing or not mentioning graphical changes in Snake Pass, FF XII, etc.--but they do also commit errors on resolution too. For example, they said the PS4 Pro performance mode of Horizon: Zero Dawn was 1080p, and didn't announce the correct value of 1368p until, it seems, Guerrilla told them. (They've never updated their original article, though they've used the true number in later articles.) Or in Resident Evil VII, where they apparently relied on dev information that it was 1260p on Pro, and didn't check themselves to notice that a temporal pass was increasing resolution of some screen elements higher than that.

Of course, we have to allow them room for mistakes, and I must applaud their quick and professional handling of this one (especially in the face of wholly unwarranted extreme vitriol from the developer). But their results should be taken not as final authority, but as what I'm sure even DF would agree they actually are: best effort by earnest, trained individuals working under time and resource constraints. They should always be treated as tentative, and subject to enlargement, revision, or retraction. This is not a strike against them, but a positive trait of their work: it is concerned foremost with approaching truth, given inevitable human error.

DF staff played the game and it stayed at 1080p the whole time.
We can't say that. I believe we can reasonably assume that the screenshots they decided to pixel count were all 1080p, yes. But if they played at least one lap on every course while analyzing--which it certainly seems they would--then they saw segments running at far higher resolution. They just didn't notice them.

And 34BigThings are still claiming on their company website that their game renders at 50% to 90% of native 4K, when it actually is only 25% to 81%, even after they were made aware of that:

http://34bigthings.com/an-official-response-to-digital-foundry-analysis-of-redout-on-xbox-one-x/

What is going on here?
Notice they do not refer to total pixels, but say they're scaling to 50-90%. Unless otherwise specified, such scaling numbers are taken to apply to both axes. You can check this convention yourself in Photoshop or any other image editor. Scale a 3840x2160 image by 50% (keeping aspect ratio) and the result will be a 1920x1080 image, only a quarter as many pixels.

Dave will work on a new video first thing tomorrow.

I'll be back to my home office later this week and then promptly seeking help.
Thanks so much, I trust DF's drive to identify the ground truth. I assume the team is going to re-examine the Pro output as well? It seems you'd want to eliminate the possibility that there's similarly missable location-based resolution adjustment there as well.
 
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Deleted member 32018

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Reading the comments section on DF's newest video makes me remember how much I hate people on the internet, especially gamers.
 

Andromeda

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Digital Foundry isnt responsible for the way their fanbase, or some of the users reading DF, interpret their statements.

Yes they are when they make subjective opinions like here. There are places where only hard facts are presented like VG Tech channel but DF are professional journalists that regularly (more and more often) comment (their opinion) on those technical subjects. Obviously they know those statements are going to be understood the way they were interpreted here, particularly in our current social networks world.

We all make mistakes. DF will try harder next time. Theyre still awesome.

The main problem is not that DF made an honest mistake. The problem is the general negative tone of their article, strongly implying the devs are incompetent on the XBX port. Of course the CEO used the resolution mistake (and did his own mistakes) for his statement but what triggered their violent answer was the numerous offensive implications found in the article (and most probably video).

First problem I think was their first title: "What's Up With The Xbox One X Version?" insinuating the XBX version is bugged similar to Titanfall 2 predicament "Something's not right with Titanfall 2 on Xbox One X"

The title was changed and is now more neutral and objective: "Redout on Xbox One X falls short of the PS4 Pro experience" which is objectively true.

Then we have another harmful opinion: "Bearing in mind the additional compute power and memory bandwidth offered by the Scorpio Engine, it's hard to believe that Redout is under-performing to this degree, especially once the slight visual downgrades are factored into the mix.". That's clearly another statement suggesting it's entirely the devs fault as if it couldn't be XBX (hardware or software) fault.

I haven't even watch the video but I am sure there was plenty more of those in it.

The whole article almost only talks about that: implications that it's entirely the dev's fault by describing the all powerful Scorpio engine.

This created a vague of heinous protests to 24BigThings. Being a small company, this opinionated article and video from a site like DF are very harmful to them. Combine that with DF mistakes and you have that strong and awkward reaction from their CEO.

Much respect to DF. That dev sucks and that's a shame.
That's offensive.
 
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weblaus

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Oct 27, 2017
933
Not really, their faulty analysis might lead to lost sales / jobs / contracts. Folks, this isn't just about forum drama..

I'm fairly sure that the way the devs decided to present their objection will have a bigger effect in regards to potential contract losses than DF's analysis ever could.
 

Deleted member 32018

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The problem is the general negative tone of their article, strongly implying the devs are incompetent on the XBX port

It was a bad patch so DF were correct to have a negative tone. Something they still have in the updated article as they should because it runs below 45fps often, uses Xbox One assets and drops as low as 1080p.
 

Zedelima

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Oct 25, 2017
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Everyone makes mistakes, but what important is, how often?
I really love DF and staff, and dont think is fair all this situation given their track record.
 

Voxels

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Oct 27, 2017
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I said this a long time ago. The thing DF says or writes about needs to be more neutral. Although they "made it right", they still as journalists have a duty to report unbiased news. They keep flavoring their videos and articles with undertones of favoritism. Just look at the title: "what's up with the Xbox Version? Better on Pro!". That shit right there is bound to draw out fanboys and it's pretty sensational too.

So truthfully I'm glad this happened. It'll keep DF on their P's and Q's and force them to be more thorough. 2. It'll give more credibility to other outlets putting in that work because nothing is guaranteed. Better shape up.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Everyone makes mistakes, but what important is, how often?
The fact that mistakes Digital Foundry makes are rare supports the CEO's point; statements they make carry a significant influence. When their reputation is as it is, and they are by far the most well-respected and publicised source of analysis of games, it's absolutely essential that they take the time to ensure the statements they make are factual, because any mistake, regardless of how honest or not it was made, can lead to negative feedback. Digital Foundry's good reputation is not a benefit to this case, it's what gives credence to the idea that their mistake is costly and impactful. Whether the developer has made claims which are not so accurate is very much irrelevant to the subject of the impact demonstrably false statements made by Digital Foundry can have.
 

Kurdel

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Nov 7, 2017
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The fact that DF got big enough to be forced to publish excuses and retractions is amazing.
 

onanie

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Oct 27, 2017
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I said this a long time ago. The thing DF says or writes about needs to be more neutral. Although they "made it right", they still as journalists have a duty to report unbiased news. They keep flavoring their videos and articles with undertones of favoritism. Just look at the title: "what's up with the Xbox Version? Better on Pro!". That shit right there is bound to draw out fanboys and it's pretty sensational too.

So truthfully I'm glad this happened. It'll keep DF on their P's and Q's and force them to be more thorough. 2. It'll give more credibility to other outlets putting in that work because nothing is guaranteed. Better shape up.
You've echoed my sentiments elegantly.
 

Lunchbox

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Not really, their faulty analysis might lead to lost sales / jobs / contracts. Folks, this isn't just about forum drama..
That doesn't diminish his point? Personally if the developer doesn't apologize to DF and move on from this like DF did I have no interest in purchasing their products, at this point in my view 34 is defaming DF
 

Deleted member 32018

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I said this a long time ago. The thing DF says or writes about needs to be more neutral. Although they "made it right", they still as journalists have a duty to report unbiased news. They keep flavoring their videos and articles with undertones of favoritism. Just look at the title: "what's up with the Xbox Version? Better on Pro!". That shit right there is bound to draw out fanboys and it's pretty sensational too.

How is it favoritism and sensationalism when for the most part (especially when playing a racer and 60fps being key) they are very much correct that the Pro version is better than the X at the moment and it shouldn't be this way as the X is the more powerful machine.
 

Freshmaker

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Oct 28, 2017
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I said this a long time ago. The thing DF says or writes about needs to be more neutral. Although they "made it right", they still as journalists have a duty to report unbiased news. They keep flavoring their videos and articles with undertones of favoritism. Just look at the title: "what's up with the Xbox Version? Better on Pro!". That shit right there is bound to draw out fanboys and it's pretty sensational too.

So truthfully I'm glad this happened. It'll keep DF on their P's and Q's and force them to be more thorough. 2. It'll give more credibility to other outlets putting in that work because nothing is guaranteed. Better shape up.
Perceived bias isn't the same thing as actually demonstrating it.
 

2Blackcats

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Oct 26, 2017
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I'm surprised DF don't have software for this kind of analysis like they do for frame rate/time.

So they just manually count a bunch of sample frames?
 

SharpX68K

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Nov 10, 2017
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Dave will work on a new video first thing tomorrow.

I'll be back to my home office later this week and then promptly seeking help.

Not really sure what you mean by promptly seeking help, but I wish you the best in all you do.

Digital Foundry has made my modern gaming choices easier and is an invaluable resource for so many of us.
 

ronaldthump

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I said this a long time ago. The thing DF says or writes about needs to be more neutral. Although they "made it right", they still as journalists have a duty to report unbiased news. They keep flavoring their videos and articles with undertones of favoritism. Just look at the title: "what's up with the Xbox Version? Better on Pro!". That shit right there is bound to draw out fanboys and it's pretty sensational too.

So truthfully I'm glad this happened. It'll keep DF on their P's and Q's and force them to be more thorough. 2. It'll give more credibility to other outlets putting in that work because nothing is guaranteed. Better shape up.

this is true. When they started doing the whole "we went to MS + check out all the editorials we'll be doing for XB1X", their site skewed into one that was like a editorial machine for MS with richard gushingly talking the unreleased machine. There's inherently no problems with their reviews per say - as one console was/is over better than the other. So if you cared to watch these videos and are multi-platformer owners, they're possibly useful. But then, that whole period - the channel felt like an advertising platform for the XB1X. Their witcher video of late talked about the XB1X witcher as something amazing; something like "real feat"; when it'd be more like an feat if the console was matched for spec or weaker. It's a more robust machine so you'd hope it can run the game better.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/df...vs-ps4-pro-analysis.12289/page-4#post-2426236

https://youtu.be/VQ3zCgwxf3w?t=553

at the current time stamp: the commentary is almost comical

"big divide, which is a real feat". XB1X is a better console. So why is it a real feat?

It'd be a real feat if the PS4 matched it.
 

~Fake

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That's a nice thing. Being even more transparent in future articles.
 

Ayrtonsenna84

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What If DF says almost the same things in their new Analysis? I mean It is dynamic Resolution but it sticks mostly to 1080p with base Xbox assets. Where will this Case go,any guess?
 

Voxels

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Perceived bias isn't the same thing as actually demonstrating it.
Ok if you can't it, that's ok. I won't fight with you. But don't you think a title like, "Redout 4K patch tested, with interesting results" fairs better than "Better on Pro!"? Like what's up with the exclamation marks? Besides, they regularly make glaring mistakes and because of their previous reputation, it's overlooked. It's a shame this had to be exposed in such a shitty way but, time to man up and be better.
 

Deleted member 32018

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Ok if you can't it, that's ok. I won't fight with you. But don't you think a title like, "Redout 4K patch tested, with interesting results" fairs better than "Better on Pro!"? Like what's up with the exclamation marks? Besides, they regularly make glaring mistakes and because of their previous reputation, it's overlooked. It's a shame this had to be exposed in such a shitty way but, time to man up and be better.

Has this thread really descended into making remarks on the punctuation that Digital Foundry use for their titles...?
 

Jom

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Oct 25, 2017
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In the future I would recommend DF take a more scientific approach and method. Don't go into an analysis with biases and then be "disappointed" when those preconceptions don't pan out. Just go in there, analyze, and report the findings.
 

Dark1x

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Oct 26, 2017
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In the future I would recommend DF take a more scientific approach and method. Don't go into an analysis with biases and then be "disappointed" when those preconceptions don't pan out. Just go in there, analyze, and report the findings.
Where do you get the idea that we're not already doing that? I sure as heck am.
 

Voxels

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Has this thread really descended into making remarks on the punctuation that Digital Foundry use for their titles...?
No. That was my comment. And yes, if those actions fuel an already toxic community. These guys have been doing this for years so they are aware of the implications and what it does for ratings. But rather you agree or not, this will catch up to the ones aware of the causation of their actions.

Speaking of seniority, why didn't they do their old tricks to improve performance like stare in the sky? That would have triggered the dynamic resolution.
 

Wallach

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In the future I would recommend DF take a more scientific approach and method. Don't go into an analysis with biases and then be "disappointed" when those preconceptions don't pan out. Just go in there, analyze, and report the findings.

jesus christ, please kick your own ass
 

Jom

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Oct 25, 2017
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What bias are you speaking of?
The only way you get "disappointed" is if you're going in before doing any analysis and already have an expectation of what exactly should be there.

I mean what is DF's goal? Is it to do technical analysis of each game or to set a bar for software given a set hardware spec and talk about how far from that bar they are? If it's the latter then sure what they are doing seems in line with that.
 

R_thanatos

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Oct 27, 2017
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The fact that mistakes Digital Foundry makes are rare supports the CEO's point; statements they make carry a significant influence. When their reputation is as it is, and they are by far the most well-respected and publicised source of analysis of games, it's absolutely essential that they take the time to ensure the statements they make are factual, because any mistake, regardless of how honest or not it was made, can lead to negative feedback. Digital Foundry's good reputation is not a benefit to this case, it's what gives credence to the idea that their mistake is costly and impactful. Whether the developer has made claims which are not so accurate is very much irrelevant to the subject of the impact demonstrably false statements made by Digital Foundry can have.
Negative feedback is harmfull , but this doesn't change that their initial reaction ( the devs ) was not that great. Heck it was very poor.
Mistakes happens , everytime on every medium. How you react to some of those mistakes is key. There was no reason to react that way , it made things worse ( for everyone ). Prior to that "event" both sides had a respectable reputation and the devs could have ended on an even better spot by not using such strong words and threats.

I disagree that statements from the devs are irrevelant in the discussion. The core of the problem is that statement were made on the game by many sides and that they disagree at some point. You can't just remove some claims of the equation just to enhance the fact that DF mistake was impactfull , after all , unless i'm missing something even the devs reacted to the framerate claims , so not the whole video was amiss , only 1 point was , so the statement from the devs before that "event" matter
 

Wagram

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Digital Foundry does solid work. Shit happens sometimes. There's no bias. People watch too much Crapgamer.
 

Deleted member 32018

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The only way you get "disappointed" is if you're going in before doing any analysis and already have an expectation of what exactly should be there.

That's not bias, the X is more powerful than the Pro so games running on both should have better performance on the X. Add to that the claims from the devs about 4k/60 and ultra (or whatever they called it) graphics for the X version.
 

X1 Two

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No. That was my comment. And yes, if those actions fuel an already toxic community. These guys have been doing this for years so they are aware of the implications and what it does for ratings. But rather you agree or not, this will catch up to the ones aware of the causation of their actions.

Speaking of seniority, why didn't they do their old tricks to improve performance like stare in the sky? That would have triggered the dynamic resolution.

Eh, isn't the whole thread about how resolution in this game is NOT triggered by load, so not by looking at the sky (which is impossible anyway in this game)?
 

borges

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Not a single company/organization/outlet there is free of making mistakes. What DF did is the right thing: No excuses, an apology, and learn from it for future analysis.
The way some people reacted to this whole thing... well, DF is not responsible. Childish behavior is all around the web, everywhere.
 

Deleted member 32018

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I mean what is DF's goal? Is it to do technical analysis of each game or to set a bar for software given a set hardware spec and talk about how far from that bar they are? If it's the latter then sure what they are doing seems in line with that.

Their goal is to perform technical analysis of a game and to come to a conclusion on how the game performs from this analysis and that is what they do.
 

Jom

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That's not bias, the X is more powerful than the Pro so games running on both should have better performance on the X. Add to that the claims from the devs about 4k/60 and ultra (or whatever they called it) graphics for the X version.

You're right. In a perfect world of total optimization it should definitely always be that way. So like I was saying if the method is to always start from what each game under perfect conditions should perform like in DF's opinions/calculations and then talk about how far from that bar they fell then fine. But that doesn't really seem like pure technical analysis as DF is necessarily going in with certain expectations.
 

Deleted member 32018

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But that doesn't really seem like pure technical analysis as DF is necessarily going in with certain expectations.

Testing framerate/pacing, resolution, graphical technologies and asset resolution isn't technical analysis? Adding comparisons and commentary to the analysis helps those who may not fully understand it get a better and simpler picture of how well the game performs.
 

Jom

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Oct 25, 2017
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Testing framerate/pacing, resolution, graphical technologies and asset resolution isn't technical analysis? Adding comparisons and commentary to the analysis helps those who may not fully understand it get a better and simpler picture of how well the game performs.
I'm not saying they're doing no technical analysis. But when you start getting into "low effort" and "what's up with this" that's when it's starting to get out of the realm of technical analysis and leaning into editorialized review based on personal opinions and biases.

Let's take gameplay analysis as an example. Let's say Cuphead which is an awesome game. An analysis might be that "cuphead lacks traditional platforming and is more of a boss rush with light platforming from what we experienced in the game".

That would be far different from a reviewer who says "Cuphead's lack of traditional platforming is disappointing. We feel this could have been implemented and may be due to low effort focus on that portion of the game. What's up with that?"

Now let's hypothetically add that Cuphead actually had extremely traditional platforming sections but the second reviewer simply missed it in his playthrough. That makes those kind of statements look even worse, while the first example would be far less offending since it simply states what the person observed in what he played of the game.
 

Rocco

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The 1X's specs aren't a "bias", they are a fact.

The expectation should always be that the X will perform better than the Pro, and if a game doesn't...then yea, something fishy must be going on. Its the only logical assessment.
 
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