How is saying both parties are in the wrong shifting blame? DF were wrong, they've apologised maybe the CEO should do the same for accusing them of lying and threatening behavior.
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34BigThings Denies Digital Foundry’s Redout XB1X Analysis (Update: Digital Foundry Apology)
- Thread starter lupianwolf
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How is saying both parties are in the wrong shifting blame? DF were wrong, they've apologised maybe the CEO should do the same for accusing them of lying and threatening behavior.
Please save your anti Xbox conspiracy theories for lesser forums.
Digital Foundry have been doing analysis of games for over a decade now. They rarely make mistakes while analyzing hundreds of games over the years. That is as accurate as you're going to get in this world. When they're wrong they acknowlege the mistake. The fact that people like yourself take those rare mistakes and try to spin a narrative out of them says a lot more about you and your twisted state of mind than it does about them.
DF clearly has been very busy lately and perhaps need to take more time examining games, as I've personally seen games hit worse performance than has been featured in their videos, and encountered bad graphics issues never mentioned. That said, we can't expect them to test the entire game either.
The game in question performs like shit on the X. I don't care what the pixel count is if it performs like that. I still trust DF and appreciate what they do.
The game in question performs like shit on the X. I don't care what the pixel count is if it performs like that. I still trust DF and appreciate what they do.
Especially in a case like this where the resolution adjustments work differently than any other game (ie - apparently tied to specific sections of the track rather than adjusting by load). I'd assume that this simply broke the normal testing methodology.
When you add that to the fact that the PS4 Pro version promises 4KCB when it really is just 1080p, it's not hard to see how they made an honest error.
Anti Xbox conspiracy? There's no conspiracy here. There is a massive group of people, even on this forum, that want to see X versions be worse than Pro versions. The Titanfall 2 DF thread showed that, the Battlefront 2 one proves it even better ("OMG Pro versions frame rate is better by 1fps every 7 minutes even though it's running at half the resolution with worse textures, X sucks pro is a beast!!!!" and so on for a dozen pages). Denying this is lying to yourself.
I didn't say DF intentionally got it wrong to make out like Xbox is worse, I said that they pandered to that crowd with the clickbait title when in their partially incorrect findings they came to that conclusion. They are a publication, they need page hits to survive. Every publication panders to certain demographics, usually the biggest one. That's the console that has a 2:1 sales lead, and the biggest and most vocal supporter base.
No conspiracy theory at all, just business.
I find it curious that you are constantly trying to shift 100% of the blame on DF and therefore conveniently ignore that the resolution wasn't the only aspect discussed and all other fact (like the framerate, which is nowhere near equal to PS4 Pro) are spot on.
That is why I'm waiting to see how much time the game stay on 50-90% of 4k resolution.
100% of the blame for the incorrectly stated resolution does lie on DF though. The developer didn't say their framerate analysis was wrong or dispute that it is using XB1 textures etc, did they? Pretty sure they just called them out on the incorrect resolution, which was incorrect, therefore DF are 100% to blame here.
Correct me if I'm wrong though and they called DF out for something that isn't in fact wrong?
Why are people trying to put blame on the developers for things that they didn't dispute?
I don't know what are you trying to say here...
The game run worse on X even if the resolution stay most of time in 50-90% of 4k (that probably is false because it goes to 25% of 4k).
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Get a grip and I mean really get grip. You've just talked an utter load of nonsense and obviously have no sense of smell at all
And I'm not denying that...?
I'm saying that DF went the clickbait title route after determining that the X version ran at 1080p as well as having the other issues because that's what they thought will get the most hits. I'd say they were right too.
Before DF and VG Tech did their analysis they stated it was 4k/60 and the Pro version was 4k checkerboard. Both wrong. They then state that 1920x1080 is 50% of 4k which is again wrong and then instead of just saying the DF analysis was wrong they called DF liars which again is wrong.
All shots DF took from the game probably where 1080p and that hints that the game probably stay more in 1080p than 50-90% of 4k.
That is why the new analyst will be really interesting.
Now think a little about... a game on a way stronger hardware runs worst than the same game on a weaker hardware... where is the issue? I'm sure DF has nothing to do with that.
Is the game 1080p all the time? No, so DF are 100% wrong on that. Nothing else was disputed by the developer. Why are you trying to blame the developer for X when we are discussing Y and only Y?
So can you explain to me the expression like 'Italian CEO' what it has to do with the whole discussion? That's improperly used and honestly I don't think is very respectable.
That seems to be true, but still doesn't explain why you act as if the resolution is the one and only reason why Redout on Xbox One X could be seen as "damaged goods".
Where am I acting as if that is true? All I'm saying is that DF are the only ones to blame for getting the resolution wrong, and they should do more than edit an old article and write a tweet to correct it.
It doesn't matter if the developers said X or y or z in the past. DF got it wrong. DF got called out for getting it wrong. DF admitted they got it wrong. Those are the facts, and DF need to make it right. It doesn't matter if the rest of the game is amazing or complete crap - they printed incorrect information, they need to print a retraction that will be seen by anyone that goes to their site.
I don't understand why some people are arguing that the devs are the only ones that can potentially suffer financially from this.
DF are on Patreon.
Saying they have nothing to lose from this is ridiculous, they have credibility on the line and if they lose that either through making one mistake too many or simply from not appearing neutral then yes they can and will likely suffer financially from Patrons pulling their subs.
As I said above, DF have made mistakes in the past, they are only human, they'll learn and improve, that is all they can do beyond doing everything 100% right 100% of the time, which is simply not feasible.
What could have prevented this situation happening in the first place?
34bigthings being more upfront about what is in the XB1X update.
34bigthings not putting out an XB1X update until they can deliver the desired results the players want for that version. And if they can't then explain why.
All of this could have been prevented by 34bigthings long before DF even had the chance to analyse the update, correctly or otherwise.
The real issue here is that 34bigthings messed up with how they handled the release of the XB1X update.
I don't know if the update is half assed or if the devs genuinely did the best they could with what they have. Hopefully the latter. Either way....they haven't delivered the desired results that XB1X players wanted and, from my perspective, the CEO is actually pissed that DF have exposed, inadvertently, their failures to potential customers.
There is always going to be a third party to expose you Mr CEO, be it a tech site or just other players posting on forums, the onus is on you to make it so there's nothing to expose.
DF are on Patreon.
Saying they have nothing to lose from this is ridiculous, they have credibility on the line and if they lose that either through making one mistake too many or simply from not appearing neutral then yes they can and will likely suffer financially from Patrons pulling their subs.
As I said above, DF have made mistakes in the past, they are only human, they'll learn and improve, that is all they can do beyond doing everything 100% right 100% of the time, which is simply not feasible.
What could have prevented this situation happening in the first place?
34bigthings being more upfront about what is in the XB1X update.
34bigthings not putting out an XB1X update until they can deliver the desired results the players want for that version. And if they can't then explain why.
All of this could have been prevented by 34bigthings long before DF even had the chance to analyse the update, correctly or otherwise.
The real issue here is that 34bigthings messed up with how they handled the release of the XB1X update.
I don't know if the update is half assed or if the devs genuinely did the best they could with what they have. Hopefully the latter. Either way....they haven't delivered the desired results that XB1X players wanted and, from my perspective, the CEO is actually pissed that DF have exposed, inadvertently, their failures to potential customers.
There is always going to be a third party to expose you Mr CEO, be it a tech site or just other players posting on forums, the onus is on you to make it so there's nothing to expose.
Because DF have already apologised and are making the correction provably as we speak? I'm sure DF will learn from this and be better for it. They disputed by claiming 1920x1080 was 50% and most of their response was factually incorrect. Only one part of DF's analysis was incorrect and I'm sure they'll try their hardest to make sure they keep the mistakes to a minimum going forward.
The fact that you are SO focused on this resolution dispute (which DF apologized for), while seeming completely uninterested in the devs misleading statements (which they haven't acknowledged) isn't lost on any of us. ;)
Eh... what?
In no way whatsoever did the original author insinuate that every Italian would behave that way - that's 100% made up in your mind. Get over it.
its also easier to defend DF when one of them DarkX1 is actively commenting on this thread vs 34BT which obviously has not had an input here.
it's probably a good thing DF apologised for their mistake. Let's be clear on this. whether or not you like what 34BT wrote, they were greeted with a review that is incorrect and on that part of the matter - copped heat over it, they have every right to react, or over-react. Non of you should really judge his position because its not your game or company that's being disparaged. We all know how some segments of the internet/gamers can be.
Also, redout is a game that if you were going to buy, you were going to buy. Don't comment and say "im not going to buy it now" when you probably won't going to anyhow.
it's probably a good thing DF apologised for their mistake. Let's be clear on this. whether or not you like what 34BT wrote, they were greeted with a review that is incorrect and on that part of the matter - copped heat over it, they have every right to react, or over-react. Non of you should really judge his position because its not your game or company that's being disparaged. We all know how some segments of the internet/gamers can be.
Also, redout is a game that if you were going to buy, you were going to buy. Don't comment and say "im not going to buy it now" when you probably won't going to anyhow.
You're turning this into a console war. It's really not.
What? We should definitely judge his position when their response itself contains half truths and falsehoods. The Xbox One X patch doesn't deliver what they actually advertise, and DF ended up seeing such a worst case scenario because of it that it caused them to falsely believe the game was 1080p locked, when really it's "supposed" to scale between 1080p and 4K (which it doesn't even do that).
I suggest you should look at the current state of the article on Eurogamer, then explain how that is wrong. Unless anything less than a public display of seppuku isn't enough for you, I guess.
You know how much the pro has been shat on since it released? Half assed attempt, rushed machine, not worth it, etc.
Honestly dude, don't focus on those comments and just enjoy your machine for what it is. I'm telling you as a pro owner myself. There will always be comments like that.
I'm referring to this post
It's hard to understand what the real purpose of such expression, in a forum. I just say to keep careful.
Well good for you. But honestly I don't think it's absurd to feel insulted in some way for such discrimination.
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They are doing more than that. They took down the old video and are doing another with new analysis on the resolution (now they know how the dynamic resolution works in this case) and they have apologised, what more do you want?
You mean that I'm focussed on the thing that this whole thread is about?
I couldn't give 2 shits if the game is better on the X or Pro. It absolutely is better on the Pro, without question. I didn't buy it, I'd never even heard of it before this, and even if it was locked 60fps/4K on the X I still would have no interest in it.
The Devs misleading statements are irrelevant to the topic.
You can try and attack me all you want and make out like I'm a fanboy, I don't care. I'll report it and move on, because this forum is supposed to be better than that. You're seemingly trying to make sure it's not. That's not lost on me.
I don't see how they could have done this on purpose in bad faith. It's not like people wouldn't notice.
Seems like an honest mistake to me.
Seems like an honest mistake to me.
a lot of games since getting 4k patches, get a couple more to optimise its perfomance - see ROTR (tombraider). Just because it might be an issue now, does not mean its not going to be fixed. DF was wrong. that's a fact.
Thanks for letting me know what I was and wasn't going to do.
P.S. I didn't know the game existed until yesterday, saw DF video and immediately decided to buy it. Was gonna grab PSN cards tomorrow and buy it but now I wont. Its ironic that I would've bought it specifically because of DF.
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I find it amazing how some people are blaming DF, they really must love their X branded bit of plastic to blindly defend the developer.
DF made an honest mistake and owned up to it. The main blame is with the developer here, they should have been more clear about how the game operates with this patch, instead of just claiming 4k/60fps, which it clearly isn't. The fact that the game still runs better on the Pro currently, shows the developer either did a very poor job with the patch or didn't test for bugs.
The dev got caught out and aren't happy about it, simple as that. Them trying to shift the focus onto DF with talk of legal action and claims they lied, helps no one here, especially us gamers.
This actually makes me wonder if DF and others didn't test these things, how many devs would not actually try to fix these kind of problems and just take the money and run.
Hopefully this bad situation will lead to more developers at least being more open about this kind of thing in the future.
DF made an honest mistake and owned up to it. The main blame is with the developer here, they should have been more clear about how the game operates with this patch, instead of just claiming 4k/60fps, which it clearly isn't. The fact that the game still runs better on the Pro currently, shows the developer either did a very poor job with the patch or didn't test for bugs.
The dev got caught out and aren't happy about it, simple as that. Them trying to shift the focus onto DF with talk of legal action and claims they lied, helps no one here, especially us gamers.
This actually makes me wonder if DF and others didn't test these things, how many devs would not actually try to fix these kind of problems and just take the money and run.
Hopefully this bad situation will lead to more developers at least being more open about this kind of thing in the future.
Someone who isn't a fanboy doesn't try to start a console war by complaining about hypothetical console wars happening on this forum, as you have above.
You clearly have a belief that this forum lives to shit on the Xbox One X, and that DF writes their articles to pander to this audience. The dev's misleading statements are extremely relevant to the topic, because they are the ones that made the claim this game hits 4K/60fps, when actually the dynamic scaling is so rough that DF was able to hit and maintain a constant 1080p, so much so that they believed it was locked at that resolution.
It doesn't mean it IS going to be fixed either. You can't judge something based on the promise that it'll get better. It's based on the product, as it is delivered, right now. The dev stated 4K/60fps. The game scales dynamically between 4K down to 1080p. During their testing DF managed to stay on the 1080p side for so long it led them to think it was locked. And the dev threw a fit, despite probably knowing this was a likely outcome from having a dynamically scaled resolution, and enough performance issues that it'll likely get stuck down on that lower target.
They are both at fault, and the dev only made it worse by trying to go the nuclear route immediately.
Is he Italian and the CEO. Work them out and then come back to me. Honestly, you talking sheer and utter nonsense and don't seem to know the difference between Racism and discrimination (which I guess one could say I was guilty of)
I have no idea about the politics of 34BigThings, but their strategy here couldn't be any more Trumpian and that 'fake news' part is telling.
They promise that the X version is 4K/60 fps. When it becomes apparent that they can't deliver this (even presuming this was all in good faith and they really thought they could deliver this when they made the statement), they don't make an announcement explaining what the patch is actually going to be like. They leave that false promise out there and let people continue buying the game, thinking the X version will be 4K/60 when the patch drops.
The patch drops and doesn't deliver this at all, as we know from the dev's *own* admission that the game tops out below 4K. Further more, it runs noticeably worse than the PS4 Pro version, while using lower graphics settings, even when it's matching the Pro's 1080p output.
In their analysis of the game, Digital Foundry make two key mistakes. First of all they miss that the game does under certain conditions run at higher resolutions than 1080p on the X. Secondly, they fail to leave open the possibility that the game may hit higher resolutions. This is something I've heard them do in the past. They (imo) accurately title their video to demonstrate that the X version is worse than the Pro version, and I think fairly call the patch bad as a result. There is no reason we should be seeing worse performance and graphical settings on the X version, even if at times it runs at a higher resolution.
This is where 34BigThings go full Trump.
Rather than responding to the fact that they didn't deliver what they promised, and have in fact delivered one of the worst X patches yet seen, they pick up on the mistake Digital Foundry made (a mistake I should add, that doesn't change that 34BigThings didn't deliver what they promised when it comes to resolution) call them liars, attack their credibility and call them fake news, and threaten to sue. It's a classic Trump counter attack. Admit no wrong doing. Distract. Threaten litigation.
I cannot think of many ways 34BigThings could have responded to Digital Foundry's video that would be worse or more damaging to 34BigThings reputation.
Seizing on the mistake. Ignoring everything else. Suggesting an agenda that isn't remotely there. Threatening to sue.
I'm not going to leap on the person tweeting over the 1080p is 50% thing, because it's a common mistake and I have no idea if they're tech savvy themselves.
But the fact remains the game tops out below 4K, runs demonstrably worse than the Pro version (and isn't anything close to a steady 60 fps) and offers worse LOD, and other graphical settings compared to the Pro version.
It's a bad X patch. This attempt to distract from that with false claims and threats of legal action is embarrassing and 100% transparent to many of us.
DF will, I'm sure, make sure not to fail to mention that any given game might top out at a higher resolution than they've seen in the future. And that's something they ought to do, even if just to make it harder for developers with terrible PR departments to distract from failing to deliver on their promises, and knowingly leaving misleading claims out there.
They promise that the X version is 4K/60 fps. When it becomes apparent that they can't deliver this (even presuming this was all in good faith and they really thought they could deliver this when they made the statement), they don't make an announcement explaining what the patch is actually going to be like. They leave that false promise out there and let people continue buying the game, thinking the X version will be 4K/60 when the patch drops.
The patch drops and doesn't deliver this at all, as we know from the dev's *own* admission that the game tops out below 4K. Further more, it runs noticeably worse than the PS4 Pro version, while using lower graphics settings, even when it's matching the Pro's 1080p output.
In their analysis of the game, Digital Foundry make two key mistakes. First of all they miss that the game does under certain conditions run at higher resolutions than 1080p on the X. Secondly, they fail to leave open the possibility that the game may hit higher resolutions. This is something I've heard them do in the past. They (imo) accurately title their video to demonstrate that the X version is worse than the Pro version, and I think fairly call the patch bad as a result. There is no reason we should be seeing worse performance and graphical settings on the X version, even if at times it runs at a higher resolution.
This is where 34BigThings go full Trump.
Rather than responding to the fact that they didn't deliver what they promised, and have in fact delivered one of the worst X patches yet seen, they pick up on the mistake Digital Foundry made (a mistake I should add, that doesn't change that 34BigThings didn't deliver what they promised when it comes to resolution) call them liars, attack their credibility and call them fake news, and threaten to sue. It's a classic Trump counter attack. Admit no wrong doing. Distract. Threaten litigation.
I cannot think of many ways 34BigThings could have responded to Digital Foundry's video that would be worse or more damaging to 34BigThings reputation.
Seizing on the mistake. Ignoring everything else. Suggesting an agenda that isn't remotely there. Threatening to sue.
I'm not going to leap on the person tweeting over the 1080p is 50% thing, because it's a common mistake and I have no idea if they're tech savvy themselves.
But the fact remains the game tops out below 4K, runs demonstrably worse than the Pro version (and isn't anything close to a steady 60 fps) and offers worse LOD, and other graphical settings compared to the Pro version.
It's a bad X patch. This attempt to distract from that with false claims and threats of legal action is embarrassing and 100% transparent to many of us.
DF will, I'm sure, make sure not to fail to mention that any given game might top out at a higher resolution than they've seen in the future. And that's something they ought to do, even if just to make it harder for developers with terrible PR departments to distract from failing to deliver on their promises, and knowingly leaving misleading claims out there.
I am aware of that. And I'm still completely baffled how anyone could in any way construct that as an implied racial insult unless they were trying really, really hard to feel insulted.
Damn.. A few days ago i was imagining something exactly like this. A dev denying the DF statements and the possible consequences... It almost feels like a dejavu... C**pgamer must be dancing on one foot thinking that DF credibility it's going to burn. But the DF history talk for itself.
Well I was gonna get it on the Switch (if/when it comes) as I've played Fast RMX and want even more of an f-zero fix. After seeing both the reaction of the CEO and that it drops to 540p on the OG Xbox One I most likely will not buy it now so your statement is false.
It's like you didn't even read my post. I wasn't turning anything into a fanboy war or making it about consoles. I was questioning the title of the article and how it is pretty obviously clickbait and pandering to those who want to see the Pro come out on top.
If you can't even read my posts please don't call them out. Please don't take this even further off topic. Again - I don't care if the game is better on X or Pro. That's not relevant to the conversation. Neither is Devs saying it's 4k or 4KCB. What is relevant is DF getting the resolution wrong.
Perhaps ironically, the statement from this CEO has done more to damage my opinion of his company than anything Digitial Foundary published. This reads more like an angry high schooler's social media post than an "official statement" representing a company that sells a product.
No one is denying this at this point, including DF who have admitted it and apologized, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
When 34BigThings apologize for their false attacks and promise to fix the performance in their game, then maybe I'll stop criticizing them.
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