Then maybe the Ceo shouldn't be using a Trump phrase of fake news
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34BigThings Denies Digital Foundry’s Redout XB1X Analysis (Update: Digital Foundry Apology)
- Thread starter lupianwolf
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It's a thing. Games that are made in Europe that has some perpelexing UI/gameplay decisions that some aren't familiar with.
Not necessarily a bad thing. A lot find it endearing.
Exactly. It's very hypocritical that they are lashing out against Digital Foundry over an honest mistake when they didn't deliver on their own promise. Unless they are going to continually optimise these versions, but even then, why not be transparent about it from the start? This whole situation is very odd.
Ah right, those weird Europeans and their euro-ways.
You know, just name it 'jank' without shitting on an entire continent.
I'm looking to see if DF see what VG Tech has shown, regular long periods of the game sat at ~46 fps. Seems as though DF didn't play enough of the game if the VG Tech video is anything to go by. I could understand a 40 hour rpg.
Secondly does the game switch res while playing normally?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VVjcQgprLo
Here you can even see on a compressed youtube video the huge res difference but this is not how you'd play in this type of game.
If it's always switching while playing in these positions and the drops down to 55-50 and sub 50 are due to running at higher res then it looks like an bad oversight on DF's part. These low frame rate sections would be a go to for analysis. If a vast majority of normal play is at 1080p then one can't expect every outlet looking, to find these rare occasions of a jump in resolution. Probably from now and like in other DF videos, they might have to qualify they haven't encountered the game going over 1080p on the screens we've tested and leave the door open.
Secondly does the game switch res while playing normally?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VVjcQgprLo
Here you can even see on a compressed youtube video the huge res difference but this is not how you'd play in this type of game.
If it's always switching while playing in these positions and the drops down to 55-50 and sub 50 are due to running at higher res then it looks like an bad oversight on DF's part. These low frame rate sections would be a go to for analysis. If a vast majority of normal play is at 1080p then one can't expect every outlet looking, to find these rare occasions of a jump in resolution. Probably from now and like in other DF videos, they might have to qualify they haven't encountered the game going over 1080p on the screens we've tested and leave the door open.
Bethesda jank and Japan jank exist too... I think anyway. Might as well not say dude bro because it's mean to every FPS game.
On topic - they played way too little of the game.
Bethesda-jank is a thing because Bethesda produces janky-ass games, it's highly specific. That's exactly my point.
The same doesn't apply to Europe as a continent. That is all.
maybe next time do 2 minutes of research on someone before assuming their political beliefs
It's more of an endearing term. I don't think people from any European country takes offense by it - I certainly don't. Some of my favorite games of all time fit the bill perfectly, such as the Stalker games or Risen. Hell, my own country has made its fair share of eurojank.
It's an old term that stems from the Amiga era in the 90s, specifically related to European made shooters (AKA Euro Shmups) and sidescrolling platformers. While the term is outdated (and unnecessarily derogatory), it does refer to a specific kind of "jank" that is about strange design choices that don't generally gel well and generally poor pacing, not necessarily poor framerate performance or lack of polish (though it can include them too). It unfortunately doesn't have an alternative term, so it's not really a wrong choice of phrase for him to make here, even if it is derogatory against a continent.
Also, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Like others have said, a lot of us who've been playing since that era actually quite like "euro jank" (and Euro shmups). They're usually games that are quite unique, willing to go against the grain (warts and all) and for a lot of people, quite endearing in their quirks.
I don't take offense, but to me it simply belongs to obnoxious 4chan-like vernacular similar to eurotrash, amerifats and so on. I could do without.
Edit: I said my piece, let's get back on topic.
Unnecessarily ugly situation that could have been avoided or at least lessened by devs been more upfront about the X update.
Not surprised by outrage aimed at DF following dev response either, figured this would happen with MS execs on twitter using their analysis videos as unofficial X marketing.
DF have messed up in the past and corrected themselves, devs are no doubt using new tricks these days to get desired results which means DF are going to miss things from time to time but they'll learn and their analysis videos will get better.
The CEO has definitely gone too far, the reaction would be more understandable if Redout was true 4K 95% of the time but it's not even close to that percentage. I understand an indie dev could be really hurt by a video like this if it was truly misleading, even a few thousand sales could make or break the game, but it's not misleading really in this case. And before going public, just try email DF? Now everyone is covered in a little shit for a while. Good job mate.
Not surprised by outrage aimed at DF following dev response either, figured this would happen with MS execs on twitter using their analysis videos as unofficial X marketing.
DF have messed up in the past and corrected themselves, devs are no doubt using new tricks these days to get desired results which means DF are going to miss things from time to time but they'll learn and their analysis videos will get better.
The CEO has definitely gone too far, the reaction would be more understandable if Redout was true 4K 95% of the time but it's not even close to that percentage. I understand an indie dev could be really hurt by a video like this if it was truly misleading, even a few thousand sales could make or break the game, but it's not misleading really in this case. And before going public, just try email DF? Now everyone is covered in a little shit for a while. Good job mate.
Well yes, because you don't understand. For you Eurojank is a derogatory term when it really isn't. I suggest reading up about it.
It's much better than lashing to people who is trying to explain to you that it isn't a bad thing :p
Wording on that tweet might cause the CEO guy to lose his shit again and have him firing out trumpisms. "it scales from 1080p to 1944p" could be read differently than the meaning they wish to convey - i.e. that it scales to 4k from frame buffers varying between 1080p and 1944p, not that it scales 1080 to 1944 which is how it reads literally :)
Seems DF were just a little too quick to get a cheap point score over the One X and should have played the game just a little more. Still not anywhere near mistake of the Saturn version of Need For Speed not having In-game music, which was an outcry and a blatant lie lol
Tbh both DF and the 34bigthings don't come out of this too well. The fact that DF has taken down the vid down with immediate effect Tell one all they need to know (ie its wrong) and then to have the CEO of 34bigthings lose it and going OTT was a step too far when the game doesn't come close to 4k most of the time. Still DF are spot on 99% and only GOD is perfect, the rest of us are humans and make mistakes now and again
Tbh both DF and the 34bigthings don't come out of this too well. The fact that DF has taken down the vid down with immediate effect Tell one all they need to know (ie its wrong) and then to have the CEO of 34bigthings lose it and going OTT was a step too far when the game doesn't come close to 4k most of the time. Still DF are spot on 99% and only GOD is perfect, the rest of us are humans and make mistakes now and again
Oh boy, this will be a quoting.
Personal thoughts:
I call ludicrous on the developers accusations, both in terms of wording, and also in terms of aggression. There literally is zero reason to assume bad faith on DF's end and then barge after them like this. I understand its tempting when you have a lot of Twitter comments yelling to go to extremes, but a proper company does not let those hot takes influence their possible PR move.
In this case, the move they decided on going with was just bad from a PR point of view. It does not speak against the quality of their game, but it does damage the image that this game has.
DF has taken on a far more professional stance, credited VG Tech, and apologized, and will re-do the bit. I hope the Redout devs take a good look at how you can handle this without taking it to extremes.
But.
It has to be said that DF has always been extremely consistent over the years, and that fucks ups are bound to happen. As such, i feel the backlash against DF isnt entirely deserved. It also isnt without fault either, because i do have to make note that as of lately, DF have been more.., how should i put it... ''adventurous'' in the way of testing. It is becoming increasingly more common that small slipups slip through the cracks, and i am not particularly fond of that. If you have to ask me, this happens because they want to cover everything as fast as possible and publishing the content as fast as possible. As of recent, this approach seems to have taken a hit in the overall quality of DF. I hope that they are aware of this aswell, and that this is in the back of their minds from now on.
Not to mention that they themselves also made false claims, so pot calling the kettle black?
It bothers me that you instantly jump to bad faith on DF's end when in reality, it really is just a ''mistake''. Just goes to show how importanct nuances and sensible reasoning is in this entertainment sector because people and companies too quickly resort to black/white kind of postings with no grey area inbetween.
In the end the people at DF are just that, people. So mistakes are a thing. What can be argued is that the slipup rate has been increasing as of recent, and i do think that DF needs to take note of that.
My take on it is that Redout PR took too much influence from the Twitter/Eurogamer/Youtube commentary and blamed DF for it. Whether DF has a duty to ''control'' their comments is a topic of its own, but its kinda silly to blame DF for the trash comments underneath their content.
Also they handled it in a professional matter. Why are you not calling out developer for what surely constitues a ''really bad and unprofessional'' statement?
It is another thing however to go in instant threat mode though. Its like throwing a hand grenade to a white flag.
Personally, i find the whole notion of ''the need to bend this information to the console of my choice'' narrative pretty childish. Play games for enjoyment, buy a console that you think suits you best, but this whole ''i need to defend my purchase'' ideology is just profoundly dumb from the get-go.
Call me overly defensive on this, but its really offputting to see so many people have such bad faith into something as DF. Like, give them some slack. They have been pumping out these videos all the way back to atleast 2010. How many of those were fuck ups? I would wager it is but two handfuls. Dont you think that those are due to human error? They wouldn't be this much respected if most of their videos were with mistakes like these.
Like honestly, with the way some of the users talk bad about DF here, you would think that they need to be supermans or something.
DF treats VG Tech as a colleague, just as it does with NX Gamer. As it should be. Posts like these only serve to incite hostility between both parties when both parties themselves are just colleagues of one another.
DF handling it like you would expect them to handle it.
Personal thoughts:
I call ludicrous on the developers accusations, both in terms of wording, and also in terms of aggression. There literally is zero reason to assume bad faith on DF's end and then barge after them like this. I understand its tempting when you have a lot of Twitter comments yelling to go to extremes, but a proper company does not let those hot takes influence their possible PR move.
In this case, the move they decided on going with was just bad from a PR point of view. It does not speak against the quality of their game, but it does damage the image that this game has.
DF has taken on a far more professional stance, credited VG Tech, and apologized, and will re-do the bit. I hope the Redout devs take a good look at how you can handle this without taking it to extremes.
But.
It has to be said that DF has always been extremely consistent over the years, and that fucks ups are bound to happen. As such, i feel the backlash against DF isnt entirely deserved. It also isnt without fault either, because i do have to make note that as of lately, DF have been more.., how should i put it... ''adventurous'' in the way of testing. It is becoming increasingly more common that small slipups slip through the cracks, and i am not particularly fond of that. If you have to ask me, this happens because they want to cover everything as fast as possible and publishing the content as fast as possible. As of recent, this approach seems to have taken a hit in the overall quality of DF. I hope that they are aware of this aswell, and that this is in the back of their minds from now on.
Because DF can never be factually wrong, right? The way they handled this is far more calm and reasoned then Redout's incredible hot take.
Not to mention that they themselves also made false claims, so pot calling the kettle black?
It bothers me that you instantly jump to bad faith on DF's end when in reality, it really is just a ''mistake''. Just goes to show how importanct nuances and sensible reasoning is in this entertainment sector because people and companies too quickly resort to black/white kind of postings with no grey area inbetween.
Nah man, DF needs to be perfect all the time like pixelcounting automatrons. /s.
In the end the people at DF are just that, people. So mistakes are a thing. What can be argued is that the slipup rate has been increasing as of recent, and i do think that DF needs to take note of that.
What a informative post. There is a reason why oneliners like that are frowned upon, you know?
That would be the most sensible solution. And atleast on DF's part, they replied in that tone of voice.
My take on it is that Redout PR took too much influence from the Twitter/Eurogamer/Youtube commentary and blamed DF for it. Whether DF has a duty to ''control'' their comments is a topic of its own, but its kinda silly to blame DF for the trash comments underneath their content.
They apologized. What do you say on that?
Also they handled it in a professional matter. Why are you not calling out developer for what surely constitues a ''really bad and unprofessional'' statement?
Posts like these dont help you know. Out of this scenario, any developer wouldnt be happy if they were misrepresented with the game they are developing. That has nothing to do with being insecure (Lol what a statement to make).
It is another thing however to go in instant threat mode though. Its like throwing a hand grenade to a white flag.
Its not like DF purposefully makes fanboys, lol. They just report on what a game does, as does VG Tech and NX Gamer. What people do with that information is not their problem. You will always have people trying to bend that information to their favorite console.
Personally, i find the whole notion of ''the need to bend this information to the console of my choice'' narrative pretty childish. Play games for enjoyment, buy a console that you think suits you best, but this whole ''i need to defend my purchase'' ideology is just profoundly dumb from the get-go.
You make it sound like its justified that Redout instantly goes to ''No more soup for you! See you in court!''. Again people and developers should stop having black/white style responses, especially towards a insititute like DF that AFAIK is always willing to work with developers and correcting their mistakes, when far more nuanced communications can be made. Instead of assuming bad faith towards DF, assume good faith, DF literally has nothing to gain by purposefully spreading misinformation. You would think a developer like Redout is aware of this, but it seems like they went for the emotional kneejerk rather than actually thinking their statement through.
Oh look, another one posting in bad faith about DF. Can you also just underline that they have issued an apology, removed the video, credited VG Tech, and in the past, also made Updates to their original article to denote their mistakes? Unlike Redout, they dont shy away from their mistakes and handled it as it should.
Call me overly defensive on this, but its really offputting to see so many people have such bad faith into something as DF. Like, give them some slack. They have been pumping out these videos all the way back to atleast 2010. How many of those were fuck ups? I would wager it is but two handfuls. Dont you think that those are due to human error? They wouldn't be this much respected if most of their videos were with mistakes like these.
Like honestly, with the way some of the users talk bad about DF here, you would think that they need to be supermans or something.
NX Gamer is on a indefinite hiatus as far as i know.
Oh no! How terrible that DF showed their humanity for once! Its almost like DF isnt allowed to make mistakes like most humans tend to do atleast once in their lives.
We were on the same page with this one ;)
This really is such a disingenuous comment to make. They properly credited VGTech in their piece when they realized he had it correct. It is so easy to say these when over the course of years, DF has only been wrong a few times. And every single time they handled it with care.
DF treats VG Tech as a colleague, just as it does with NX Gamer. As it should be. Posts like these only serve to incite hostility between both parties when both parties themselves are just colleagues of one another.
You should take that to Dark1x. I had a great talk with him about this recently and it explains why you might feel that way.
What an odd to post to make. Is this some weird ''Im not actually interested but i post anyway'' meta joke that im missing here?
DF handling it like you would expect them to handle it.
Just a page back: https://www.resetera.com/threads/34...tal-foundry-apology.14750/page-5#post-2943808
That's not really fair. A "lie" is something intentionally malicious.
My NTSC-U copy of NFS for Saturn does not have music. I don't know what's up with that, but no music plays. What I found out after that video, however, is that other region releases do. I bought a PAL copy and, yup, it has music indeed.
It's still a mystery to me, honestly. Some YT footage out there has no music like mine, other footage has music. Were early Saturn copies sold in the US defective? Are some models not playing it properly? I haven't been able to figure it out. I didn't look that closely at it until after the video since my copy never had music. That's just how I knew the game on Saturn. Wasn't until buying a PAL copy that I discovered otherwise.
Please don't act like that Italian CEO and going totally OTT. I was joking and not being serious hence lol. All I know is the Saturn game had music, but hey stuff can be added to Pal games that usually shipped months later like with Pal Sega Rally compared to its NTSC US version.
If someone reports false hard facts about my project I worked on for the last few years every day I would be pissed, too. You would be, too. No reason to deny that. We are not talking about an opinion. Opinions are completely subjective. A game resolution is as objective as it could be. DF did a mistake - they apologized. It's fine now. Case closed for me. They will learn from this and hopefully it won't happen again. That's what I say on that.
Honestly imo the most baffling thing out of all of this is the fact that there are still people saying "no I believe DF, they know what they're doing and they say it's 1080p locked so it's 1080p". I mean the evidence is right there that they are absolutely 100% wrong. VG tech proved it, the developer proved it, and DF even admitted it..... Yet people still believe DF weren't wrong. Crazy talk.
This is why a lawsuit is on the cards. They can't easily take back the damage that they did, and they did do damage. Adding a small footnote in a description or at the top of an article is bullshit and almost pointless. They need to man up and front page a retraction, and even then it's not going to come close to undoing the damage.
This is why a lawsuit is on the cards. They can't easily take back the damage that they did, and they did do damage. Adding a small footnote in a description or at the top of an article is bullshit and almost pointless. They need to man up and front page a retraction, and even then it's not going to come close to undoing the damage.
Pixel-counting is a manual process, it's subjective in the sense that is done by a man and it heavily rely on the samples you subjectively take from a game.
If a game resolution is fixed during an entire game then it would be easy to double check the pixel-count on multiple samples to be sure about your findings however dynamic resolution might muddle your findings if for long stretch of gameplay the dynamic resolution never vary and it might cause a wrong evaluation.
I'm not sure what happened in this specific case but let's not act as it is not possible to get a game resolution wrong.
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What i would do is contact the author of those false facts in private and assume good faith on the author because clearly, other analysis paints a different picture. I would ask if what they did is correct, and present them the alternative analysis. I would kindly ask them to go over their results and see if they might have made a mistake here.
That's what i would do. Not go to Twitter and be like ''They are a bunch of liars! Crooked Digital Foundry being deplorable once again! We will get a lawsuit on them!''. which is just bad PR from the start.
I see you constantly condemning DF, but i still don't see you condemning Redout for their initial PR statement, plus that they have made false claims on their own product aswell. Its only worth calling it out when its supposed to be a independent body like DF, as opposed to a developer with a hissy fit?
Who exactly is believing that still?
Just as how Redout did damage to its own customers by promising 4K support and ended up with a dynamic solution?
DF handled this far more professionaly then Redout did in the first place, so why exactly do you want to see DF blood on the walls?
I really can't with these bad faith postings. They delivered a message on their Twitter, they added an update in the top of said article, they removed the video, they credited VG Tech and they will re-do the whole video based on these criticism.
And yet its still not enough for you? Next DF should just give them their pixelcounting equipment as a rebuttal for a human mistake. smh.
Falsely accusing another member of having facts wrong.
Hyperbole ahoy! Fluffy comments that float in the ether tethered to no facts whatsoever! Words that sound serious yet are backed up with no meaning or context! Posts like these make we wonder who's being sarcastic here and who isn't.
The Digital Foundry that I know would never do that.
He's wrong? The game can't even reach 4K most of time or even 60fps...
Whats hyperbole about that? At the end its still indeed a mediocre patch.
I'd say the real issue is drawing conclusions from pixel counting based on limited sampling of empirical evidence. You can never be sure about that 1% of the time that the game doesn't hold its native resolution, so similar to reporting on 'locked/flawless framerates', there's always the possibility of being wrong when drawing conclusions about how a game will perform in any case. That has less to do with subjectivity than it does imperfect methodology, and it will always be error prone, even if a machine did the pixel counting.
Exactly. Which is why I think it's very important to reflect this in writing. If there is a possibility for error, it's easy enough to craft a paragraph to reflect that.
Of course DF handled it professionally, they got caught with their pants down. They weren't going to come out and have a go at the other guys when they were the ones in the wrong lol.
DF threw this game and developer to the wolves that have been starving for anything that can be used to say that something on PlayStation is better than it is on the X. They've been getting increasing clickbaity with their titles and articles, they know what they're doing. I'm not saying they got the resolution wrong on purpose, but they played what they thought was a problem to get maximum exposure and reactions.
The developers and CEO have every right to be pissed. They got called "lazy Devs" by a respected and much loved publication based on incorrect facts. They absolutely have lost reputation and sales purely based on that DF article, even if their CEO said nothing. People saw 1080p and noped out of it, abusing the Devs as they left.
Adding an update to the top of an article is meaningless. The very large majority of an articles hits come in in the hours after the article hits. People that read it aren't going to go back and read it again to see the updated text lol. "Oh I really loved that article about a shitty 1080p X version, I might go read it and laugh again!" .... That doesn't happen. That's why posting an update and removing a video isn't good enough - it doesn't undo the views and tarnished reputation. They need to put out a new article on their front page that people will see, otherwise they're just pissing in the wind and saying "hey look we tried".
Bad faith posting? Get out of here with that rubbish. DF stuffed up, have admitted stuffing up, so they need to make it right.
I concur, it's something (the chance of misjudgement) that need to be reflected during the exposition of the article/video.
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Yes. The developers have every right to destroy their own reputation and game sales by over reacting, falsely accusing people of lying and threatening frivolous law suits.
Not sure why anyone would point that out though like that somehow makes their public response to this a good idea.
Not sure why anyone would point that out though like that somehow makes their public response to this a good idea.
Both parties are in the wrong. The devs also lied about it being 4k/60 and they have given misinformation about their dynamic resolution being 90-50% of 4k which it isn't. They also accused DF of lying which isn't the case. All DF were was misinformed and possibly their pixel counting process needs to be looked at to minimise errors in the future.
A little late? That tweet was posted early in the morning UK time, you know? People sleep.The only reason Dark1x was awake before is because he's currently in vacation in the USA. Everyone else was, understandably, sleeping. They woke up and answered inmediately. That's not being late.
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Indeed. Can't see why people are giving the developers a pass for multiple false claims about the resolutions of this game. I understand that it can sometimes be impossible to deliver on a promise for unforeseen reasons, but there has been zero acknowledgement or humility that they over promised and under delivered.
The devs set the high expectations here. Not DF.
They werent! Watch the video.
You are throwing accusations when you get basic facts wrong.
Well no, this article was about DF telling people what the resolution is, and they were wrong. It doesn't matter what their CEO said, DF were wrong in their article that they posted to their site.
The CEO could have said 1080p is 89% of 4K, it doesn't matter. That's not what DF got wrong in their article that this whole thing is about. Stop trying to shift the blame here.
lol "damage" XD
The only damage is a shitstorm on a Saturday morning. And you could say that the dev's aggressive statement hasn't done them any favors either.
I can understand that people get angry that their twitter is getting hammered, no one wants that, but DF is not responsible for these imbeciles. They've made a mistake and will take steps to correct it.
I feel like they should tread a bit more lightly, false advertisement n all (not saying it absolutely is), but I guess the industry has so gotten used to getting away with it that everyone feels totally safe about it.
I think going forward, if this point wasn't stressed emphatically enough before, it does need to be now to avoid these kinds of problems in the future. Maybe DF can use a disclaimer that can't be missed at the beginning of the video/article.
Sir, don't act like this please... expressions like this smell of racism...what it has to do his nationality with the discussion now.
So the port itself does not seem very well done for the X due to effects staying same as vanilla, frame rates, and also 1080p seems to be staying for quite a bit (otherwise DF would have gotten non 1080p shots).
Also going straight into legal action threats seems counterproductive. And if you look at the DF video they never called devs lazy and it's not like they miscounted the pixels.
Also the dev twittering seems to misunderstand res differences between 1080p and 4K.
Edit: I do have the game on Steam and like it quite a bit.
Also going straight into legal action threats seems counterproductive. And if you look at the DF video they never called devs lazy and it's not like they miscounted the pixels.
Also the dev twittering seems to misunderstand res differences between 1080p and 4K.
Edit: I do have the game on Steam and like it quite a bit.
The CEO saying it "fake news" with another "fake news" is hilarious lol
I want just to see the new DF article and how much time it stay in 50-90% of 4k instead 25%.
I want just to see the new DF article and how much time it stay in 50-90% of 4k instead 25%.
And I see you constantly defending DF by quoting dozens of members because of an obvious mistake by DF which results in gamers calling developers "lazy". I never even made a statement judging on the reaction by the devs - and it doesn't matter for me first and foremost. The initial error was done by DF - the reaction for sure was an overreaction but again - this is something I never reviewed on.
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